Purgatory and 1 Corinthians 15:52

[Michael_Francis]

As you can see, I have deleted some seriously off-topic and offensive posts. Take the hint.

Keep it charitable and on topic or this thread will be closed and I can assure you that any more such posts, regardless of religious afffiliation will earn the offenders a vacation.

 

[Pryority7]

(Edited for lack of charity) A part of you may want to keep your sin, but no part of me wants to keep my sin. Where do you get the idea that being done with sin will hurt?

I’m going back to this because this is the real issue here. Being cleansed of sins that will still be a stain on us will hurt because we’re so used to it. The hurting is a seeing of these things for what they really are. A disclosure and a closure of the imperfection we always carried in our lives. These are the things that just need to be taken out of the way. And it’s done so by the love of God. His FIREY love…get it? You probably will not understand…

And nothing unclean will enter heaven because all will be perfectly holy, but not because of some non-existent purgatorial purification. One whose faith is truly in Christ is clean. Are you clean? Right now? You don’t sin?

It is by His blood we are released from the guilt of sin (Rom 5:9; Eph 1:7; Rev 1:5), and that release and cleansing is continuous (1 Jn 1:7), and our sin is forgotten by God (Heb 10:17). Why do you insist that further cleansing is needed?

I’m not stating that further cleansing is needed…I’m stating that the cleansing of our sins by the blood of Christ is an everpresent NOW. God is cleaning us NOW, and when we die He will simply finish this cleansing. Once again it doesn’t take away from the finished work on the Cross. It’s the finished work on the cross that completes our sanctification, both here and in purgatory.

It is the work that is tested by fire, not the man (cf 1 Cor 3:13).

Fire consumes and destroys wood, hay and straw. Fire also purifies gold and silver. The works we will place on the foundation (Christ) that is charitable and godly is the gold and silver that is made perfect (God knows we can’t perfect our actions) The wood, hay and straw (our sins) is burned away. That is loss. We will experience that. That’s all. No more taking this out of context please.

I don’t know what else to say anymore to these guys, so hurst and Church Militant…keep doing what you’re doing. I’ll just stand by and read…I’ll throw my two cents in when I feel like it but I’ve pretty much used every defense regarding purgatory. It has jumped from that to salvation, sola fide, etc… Hey, what can I say?

 

[ncgolf]

sandusky:

There are four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John.

There is the message of the good news (Gospel) of Christ dying for, and paying the penalty in full for the sins of fallen man:

Acts 8:25
25 So, when they had solemnly testified and spoken the word of the Lord, they started back to Jerusalem, and were preaching the gospel to many villages of the Samaritans.

That Gospel is also called the Gospel of God:

Romans 1:1
1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

Paul also refers to it as the Gospel he received from the Lord, or “my Gospel.”

Romans 2:16
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Paul says we will be judged by his Gospel. Maybe you should listen to him more closely.

Romans 16:25
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

Paul says that one is able to be established according to his Gospel. Maybe you should listen to him more closely.

2 Timothy 2:8
8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,

Ha! You need to read more carefully.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that [grace and faith] [are]* not of yourselves, it* [grace and faith] is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Do you see that? With respect to grace, salvation, and faith, they are all gifts of God; not even your faith is your own, but a gift of God. Why? So that you cannot boast in your salvation, nay, so that you cannot boast in anything! (Even your religious affiliation).

Romans 12:3
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Oops! There it is again. God allots faith to whom He will.

I know that those of you who believe in libertarian free-will are horrified by those statements, but they are what God says.

Therefore, belief/faith (they are the same word in the Greek) is not a work of man, but a work of God.

Your wording in your post was not the best … I would be more careful in the future … but I still look at faith … faith in what … Jesus …yes Jesus but where is Jesus. He is heaven but still on earth too … but where. Continue reading to Ephesians 25:30. It is the church … what church is Paul talking about. It has to be the Church beginning with Christ … keys then passed to Peter and 2000 years of Apostolic succession, it is the Catholic Church. We love what Christ loves … it is as intimate as husband and wife. It seems you just stopped at the faith part earlier in Ephesians. There is a church and Christ is there in it. The issue today is Purgatory, a month ago the Eucharist, it has been Infant Baptism where does it end. One has to say I want to be where you are Jesus. Lead me there.

 

[sandusky]

Sean Boyle:

Sandusky and Bene7, How do you know that your salvation is complete. Prove that the evil one hasn’t led you to believe that though deceit. Remember your faith alone is not proof since you are possibly being deceived. I’m not saying you are being decieved, just “what if.”

First of all Sean, you ask a question and then impose restrictions on what I can refer to in my answer. What’s up with that?

My faith, and, moreover, the change in my life brought about by that faith are the surest witness I have to my salvation. I am not the same person I was before I was saved.

In the first season of the television show, 24, there was a scene with an ex-CIA killer playing cards with a guy in a bar in New Orleans. The fellow playing cards with the ex-CIA won the hand, and as he slapped down his winning cards he said to the ex-CIA guy, “I knew I had you, I could see it in your eyes.”

To which the ex-CIA guy replied, looking at him with cold black eyes, “You can’t read my eyes, because if you could, you would crawl under a rock right now and cry.”

The smile quickly faded from the other man’s mouth.

I’m not going to go into my past life of sin, because it is not something that I glory in. But the transformation wrought in me by God fulfilled Paul’s statements in 1 Cor 6:13-16, with the roles reversed, of course, with similar effect on others who knew me then as well.
Sean Boyle:

Are there any sins that separate us from God? I’m curious to hear what you think they are.

See Mk 3:28-29.
Sean Boyle:

Of the three virtues listed by Jesus required of the faithful. Faith, Hope, and Love. Which was the most important?

The greatest is love.
Sean Boyle:

How is that shown in our daily lives?

By fulfilling the second commandment of loving others as you love yourself.
Sean Boyle:

Why doesn’t Jesus list “faith” as the most important as you say it is?

God’s word says we are saved by grace through faith. It does not say that you are saved by love. Furthermore, you cannot truly love until after you have been saved (1 Jn 4:19).
Sean Boyle:

Why is “hope” listed if salvation is guaranteed according to you through faith alone.

Today, people understand “hope,” as “hope so.” Hope, as defined in the bible is a confidence, IOW, not a “hope so,” but, “I know,” what Peter calls a “living hope” through the resurrection, the living hope being Christ who died, but lives.
Sean Boyle:

When in history did scripture become the sole authority of faith? A date. What in the bible says that it (the bible) is the sole authority? Is it in the bible or is it implied in you opinion?

Amos 8:11-12
11 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord God, “When I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine for bread or a thirst for water, but rather for hearing the words of the Lord.
12 “People will stagger from sea to sea and from the north even to the east; they will go to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, but they will not find it.

God’s word was given to Israel, and was at the center of her life; though she often ignored it, the written word was given to guide the people to a holy life.

When God gave the commandments, they were written down; in Dt 31, Moses wrote down the law, and the people were instructed to read it so they could listen and learn to fear the Lord.

They were also told in Dt 6 to bind the words of the Lord as a sign on their hands, and to wear the words of the Lord as frontals on their forehead.

Isaiah says:

Isaiah 8:20
20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.

Literally, there is “no light in them,” (cf Jn 3:19).

So, somewhere between 1445-1405 B.C.
Sean Boyle:

Was the oral tradition of God’s chosen people done away with after Jesus’s death. Or was it still important? Remember oral tradition made up a large part of the Jewish faith. Was the oral tradition the “made up” part of the Jewish faith?

The Jews continued on as a people and an ethnic group after their rejection of Christ.

Christ viewed the Jews oral tradition favorably, except where it superceded and added to the revealed law (cf Mt 23; Lk 11:52).

As far as the Jewish tradition being “made up,” if it was not in the revealed word and given as a command of God, then it is by definition “made up.”

 

[sandusky]

Sean Boyle:

Sandusky,

Is everyone with faith in Christ, tries to follow the example of Christ to the best of their human ability and believes in the teachings of the bible to be inspired by God, saved?
Yes or No?

No.
Sean Boyle:

Are the exceptions according to your religion?

I am not sure what you are asking here, Sean.

My religion is not the issue. God’s word says that demons believe in God, and tremble (Jas 2:19), and that one with true faith demonstrates that faith (Jas 2:14ff), and that you will know a tree by its fruit (Mt 7:16-18), and that some people honor Christ with their lips, but not their hearts (Mt 15:8).

What do you make of that?

 

[ncgolf]

sandusky:

I’m not going to go into my past life of sin, because it is not something that I glory in. But the transformation wrought in me by God fulfilled Paul’s statements in 1 Cor 6:13-16, with the roles reversed, of course, with similar effect on others who knew me then as well.

Praise th e Lord Sandusky … we are on the same journey as you. I know it is tough to acknowledge past behaviors and actions before God. My story would probably be not to much different than yours.

 

[Pryority7]

Sandusky, those scriptures you quoted trying to support you sola scriptura case do not prove one iota that scripture is all there is.
These scriptures do not support sola scriptura. They simply showed ONE of the ways God communicated to His own, not that it was THE ONLY way. You’re gonna have to do better than that.

 

[Church_Militant]

Pryority7:

I don’t know what else to say anymore to these guys, so hurst and Church Militant…keep doing what you’re doing. I’ll just stand by and read…I’ll throw my two cents in when I feel like it but I’ve pretty much used every defense regarding purgatory. It has jumped from that to salvation, sola fide, etc… Hey, what can I say?

I know what you mean.

This thread isn’t about Salvation…so that’s off topic.

This thread isn’t about Sola Fide…so that’s off topic.

Do I care if we “win” this debate? No, because the truth has put out there and nothing that these guys have said changes that. If they don’t like it or believe it, oh well… It’s no skin off my ears, but the rest of us know what’s true. Five hundred years of errors and contention can’t change that.
Gloria in excelsis Deo!

 

[hurst]

bene7:

Eph. 2:8-9 instructs us on how we are saved. Gal. 6:7-10 is exhortative on how we should live. Your reply is a perfect example of my response to Pryority on how we are not to elevate Christian living above the Gospel message itself

I think you are sidestepping this issue.

Galatians 6:8 For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh, of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit, of the spirit shall reap life everlasting.

That verse says we “reap life everlasting”. You think that is not related to salvation? That it “is exhortative on how we should live” as if not related to eternal life? It is not rather explicit?

Besides, Christian living is part of the Gospel message. Your assertion to “not elevate Christian living above the Gospel” is not itself a scripture passage I am familiar with; perhaps you can cite a source for that? But I don’t see how you can, since the Gospel is filled with the requirement for Christian living, namely to forgive and love. Christ came as a teacher for how we should live.

bene7:

:Yet the Apostle Paul says eternal life is a gift:“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 6:23).This too is didactic, not simply exhortative. Now let’s see, Paul tells us that salvation is “gift” of God in Eph. 2:8; eternal life is a “gift” in Rom. 6:23;

It is a gift, yes, but it is a gift “in Christ”, and we must abide in Christ and continue in Christ and remain in Christ and hold fast and persevere in order to keep that gift eternal life.

bene7:

and in Rom. 5:17 he states the same for righteousness:"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."I guess we do have different Gospels.

Same applies for the gift of righteousness. It is not given to us apart from our union with Christ, in whom our righteousness is.

Your Gospel is as if adapted to your view, your experience, your understanding. But even if God gave you a special revelation about your own salvation (and that is possible), that same thing does not apply to all, nor is it properly founded upon scripture, even if some passages support it when seen from your viewpoint. Thus, you do damage to discount the work of faith through the Catholic Church by opposing its teachings. You risk loss:

Matthew 5:19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

hurst

 

[bene7]

ncgolf:

Ha you sound like a works gospel. He rewards (gifts) based on an action (belief).

When does a “gift” ever become a “reward?” That would be a contradiction. Based on Eph. 2:8-9 God does not consider faith as work."For by grace (the means) you have been saved (a stated, accomplished fact) through faith…not as a result of works…"Biblical salvation is based on one putting his faith in the work of Another, not his own.

You did something to merit eternal life.

If I worked for it, then it’s no longer a gift. It is given to me as a result of putting my faith in Christ, not as a result of my deserving of it."…that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life"

How did a true believer get that way without God’s grace.

He doesn’t. It’s all of grace based on the cross of Christ.

your post is saying faith is reached without God’s grace?

I don’t understand the concept of faith being “reached?” Faith is simply putting one’s complete confidence, trust, in a person or plan, etc. In respect to salvation, faith is passive. One rests in the finished work of Another."*But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works (Rom. 4:5)

“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My load is light*” (Matt. 11:28-30)

How does one know they are a true believer??

Good question. When he has put full confidence (trust) in the Person and finished work of Jesus on the cross on his behalf. Putting no confidence whatsoever in oneself, but all in Him. Only then can one “grow in grace” (2 Pet. 3:18). A true believer knows he has nothing to offer God in order to gain eternal life (especially not works), but humbly accepts what God has done for him through Christ, and by faith humbly receives all that God gives to him in Christ: forgiveness of all sins, salvation, eternal life and righteousness.

Where is the scripture for one to know that?

You start with the words of Christ Himself:“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (Jn. 3:14-18The Epistles never stray from this basic gospel (good news) message.

When you start with this basic message you can readily see why the concept of purgatory is not found in the Bible. I gave its origin in a previous post and how it infiltrated the church totally apart from Biblical revelation, years after the Apostolic age. I’m still waiting for someone to prove its divine source (other than just stating you have the authority to teach it).

Blessins,
Bene

 

[bene7]

hurst:

I think you are sidestepping this issue.

Galatians 6:8 For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh, of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit, of the spirit shall reap life everlasting.

That verse says we “reap life everlasting”. You think that is not related to salvation? That it “is exhortative on how we should live” as if not related to eternal life? It is not rather explicit?

You lift it out of context. Paul goes on to say"But may it never be that I should boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither is circumcision (being Jewish) anything, nor uncircumcision (non-Jewish), but a new creation."

Besides, Christian living is part of the Gospel message.

Technically it is not. The Gospel (good news) message is Christ crucified and the one who puts his faith in Him HAS eternal life.

Your assertion to “not elevate Christian living above the Gospel” is not itself a scripture passage I am familiar with; perhaps you can cite a source for that? But I don’t see how you can, since the Gospel is filled with the requirement for Christian living, namely to forgive and love. Christ came as a teacher for how we should live.

He came first of all as Savior. It is the saved who are to live according to their salvation, i.e., according to their calling (see Eph. 4:1). Scripture never requires “Christian” living from a non-Christian.

It is a gift, yes, but it is a gift “in Christ”, and we must abide in Christ and continue in Christ and remain in Christ and hold fast and persevere in order to keep that gift eternal life.

Then it’s not really a gift, is it? And the words “gift” and “eternal” are meaningless.

Same applies for the gift of righteousness. It is not given to us apart from our union with Christ, in whom our righteousness is.

Hurst, is it possible for you to be unborn physically?

Your Gospel is as if adapted to your view, your experience, your understanding. But even if God gave you a special revelation about your own salvation (and that is possible), that same thing does not apply to all, nor is it properly founded upon scripture, even if some passages support it when seen from your viewpoint. Thus, you do damage to discount the work of faith through the Catholic Church by opposing its teachings. You risk loss:

Matthew 5:19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Hurst, have you ever gotten angry with someone (Matt. 5:22). Have you ever looked with lust in your heart (Matt. 5:28)?. Are you as perfect as God (Matt. 5:48)? How many eyes do you have left? How many limbs?

Where does the cross of Christ fit into all of this? How do you correlate those words of Christ in Matt. 5 with what He said in John 3:14-18, or John 5:24? Could it be possible there’s an actual context to Matt. 5 which has nothing to do with the Gospel message?

Blessings,
Bene

 

[hurst]

bene7:

When does a “gift” ever become a “reward?” That would be a contradiction. Based on Eph. 2:8-9 God does not consider faith as work.“For by grace (the means) you have been saved (a stated, accomplished fact) through faith…not as a result of works…”

Here is the crux of the problem. If “saved” is an accomplished fact, then just what exactly is “saved”? What does it mean to be “saved”? In that context, it certainly cannot mean being in heaven, nor even being sinless.

Another place in scripture says

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

So in that context, it is only accomplished in those who persevere to the end. The same is said in Matt 10:22 and Mark 13:13.

In another place

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

Here it doesn’t talk about grace directly, but about being baptized. And it says “shall be” saved.

Here is another

Romans 5:9 Christ died for us; much more therefore, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from wrath through him.

Here it says we “shall be” saved from wrath. But it says they are currently justified, but shall be saved later from wrath. So in this context, being justified is not the same as being saved.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son; much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

This says we “shall be” saved, by his life. But it says we were reconciled beforehand. After being reconciled, we have yet to be saved by his life. So in this context, being reconciled is not the same as being saved.

Yet, there are other places that seem to indicate it already happened

Acts 15:11 But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also.

Here he says they believe to “be” saved. It is something they believe, and is thus through faith.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God.

Here again he talks as if it is done. He refers to those who “are” saved.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also you are saved, if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.

Here again he says they “are” saved. But he clarifies that with a condition, saying “if” they hold fast. He must be talking about holding the faith.

Titus 3:5 Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost

Here it talks of God having “saved”, as if it were done.

In the end, just what does it mean to be “saved”? In some cases, it is something that was already done. In other cases, something that is in effect through faith. In yet others, something that is conditional to persevering in holding the faith. And in others, something that is not yet done, but that “shall be” done, after the fact of having been justified and reconciled.

So it is really somewhat specious for you to define yourself as being “saved” via the few verses you pose as proof.

For it is clear that being justified and reconciled is not the only aspect of being saved. It is likely that they sometimes referred to that part when speaking of the accomplished fact of being “saved”, yet at other times they had to add the caveat that one must continue to hold the faith to be saved in the end.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

Biblical salvation is based on one putting his faith in the work of Another, not his own.

As I showed in post #248, it is also based on continuing in that faith, on holding onto it, on persevering. It is also based on being baptized. It is also based on calling upon the name of the Lord.

bene7:

If I worked for it, then it’s no longer a gift. It is given to me as a result of putting my faith in Christ, not as a result of my deserving of it.

As I showed in post #248, what is “saved” immediately is not the same as what is “saved” later. Even the apostle says that if you do not continue to believe, then you will have believed in vain. And to continue means to put forth effort in a struggle to retain it, whether in the face of contrary beliefs, contrary morals, or contrary rulers. We might have to choose death and torture rather than give up our faith, and that invloves suffering as well. But we can do these things in Christ. It is us doing them, yet not us, but Christ in us. It is a cooperation.

bene7:

When you start with this basic message you can readily see why the concept of purgatory is not found in the Bible.

Continuing along what I showed earlier about the term “saved” applying to past, present, and future, let me now put forth this:

1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Here it is in plain terms that one who is saved may suffer loss. There are others indicating the suffering that must be done even in this life to be saved, but let’s just focus on this one for now, since it applies to after one’s work is judged, which happens after death.

bene7:

I’m still waiting for someone to prove its divine source (other than just stating you have the authority to teach it).

This passage I already quoted in the past proves there is a place besides heaven or hell:

1 Peter 3:19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.

Those spirits which had been some time incredulous were visited by Christ. These spirits were not condemned in hell, nor were they blissful in heaven. They were in a different place of some kind, a prison, held until Christ preached to them, which is clear from the fact that they were from the time of Noah.

While it doesn’t call it purgatory, nor mention fire, that is beside the point currently being addressed. This portion counters your belief that there is no other place at all besides heaven or hell. Still, it is not a permanent place because in the end everyone will indeed be in either heaven or hell.

Combine it with 1 Cor 3:15, though, and you have reason to believe that there can be fire in this holding place.

Combine it with the parable of the rich man and lazarus, and you have reason to believe that there are four places, because Abraham’s bosom was a place of rest for believers, whereas the incredulous from the time of Noah were in a prison of some kind until Christ preached to them.

Combine it with Matthew 5:25-26 and you have reason to believe that the prison is a place where some kind of debt has to be repaid based on judgment.

I can go on the refine the picture, but I will stop here for now. Contrary to your claim that there is no proof, there is in fact no way you can disprove it, but rather, you have to concede that there is a temporary place of holding, of suffering, of repayment based on judgment, but before the resurrection.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

You lift it out of context. Paul goes on to say"But may it never be that I should boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither is circumcision (being Jewish) anything, nor uncircumcision (non-Jewish), but a new creation."

Are you saying that we reaped by becoming a new creation? Here then is your flaw. I do not deny that we became a new creation when we were reborn by the spirit. But if by “reaping life everlasting” you think it means becoming a new creation, then explain why the next verse says “in due time we shall reap”?

Galatians 6:8 For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh, of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit, of the spirit shall reap life everlasting. 9 ]iAnd in doing good, let us not fail. For in due time we shall reap, not failing.

How can we reap in due time, if we already reaped becoming a new creation? And how can someone sow in the spirit in the first place, if they did not do it by faith. So then, one must have already exercised faith and become a new creation in order to do the sowing in the spirit that is mentioned. Reaping comes later. We must work the leaven in the dough, we must trade til He comes, we must plant the seed and wait for it to grow. In the end we will reap according to our work. We must present the fruits of our faithfulness to our God, who will render to all accordingly.

In a sense, a newborn does not reap anything because it can’t even walk yet. One has to grow in grace, and do good works, and collect the harvest in the end. Even Our Lord brought this point out a number of times in the Gospels. As I said in post #224 , we reap the reward along with eternal life, or perhaps lose the reward while yet being saved (purgatory before heaven), or perhaps are cast out into the darkness for our neglect.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

hurst:

Besides, Christian living is part of the Gospel message.

Technically it is not.

Yes, it is. We are redeemed in order to bring glory to God by doing good works, which is Christian living. What, do you think we were saved in order to be a bump on a log? Folly! The neglectful and slothful ones are those who will be cast out!

You are holding a Gospel of soothing words with no basis other than the strength of your faith, and you miss the whole point of having to render an account to the King for what you did with the talent, time, and opportunities He gave you! Or at least, you teach others that it is of no account. If you do end up being saved (and I hope you do), you may very well be called least: “He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:16-20).

Matthew 5:16 So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. 17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Beware lest you fall away upon encountering hardship without having stored anything up when you could have. Think ant vs. grasshopper.

I am not saying that what you store up itself saves you apart from grace, but that it is your gift of gratitude to God you have been enabled to make by grace, and without it you may forfeit what was given, and be placed among the unbelievers, for having spurned and neglected that grace! (Luke 12:46)

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in the day that he hopeth not, and at the hour that he knoweth not, and shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers.

If not cast out altogether, you will still have to suffer many stripes for the neglect, which would be purgatory. (Luke 12:47-48)

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

To what purpose do you cling to the verses that say you are already saved, and that you therefore have no basis for purgatory? Or that Christian living is not part of the Gospel? It is found throughout the Scripture that we have to render account, that the believers can lose reward and even their portion, according to how we conduct ourselves.

The problem is perhaps that you think “faith” means believing Jesus did something for us, to the end that we now don’t have to do anything. The opposite is true - He did something for us, so that we would be enabled to do something, namely, salutary good works. What He did was obtain our freedom and the grace to be able to fulfill the Law (Matt 5:16-20). Whom are you really serving here, God or yourself? If you believe God, then believe what He commands, and do it.

One part of “being saved” is getting to this point of being enabled with grace. That does indeed happen in this life (there is no point in it happening later, because the time to do works will then be gone). The other part of “being saved” is facing the judgment, which will be based on our works.

If someone “had faith” and “believed in Jesus”, but had no good works to show for it, then their faith is “dead” (James 2:14-26), they will have “believed in vain” (1 Cor 15:2) and be cast out as unprofitable (Lk 12:46). That is why scripture says that those who do good things will be resurrected unto life but those who did bad things unto reproach (John 5:29). That is why what we did to the least of our brothers is going to be the basis for whether we are welcomed or rejected (Matt 25:31-46). But even if we are not cast out, it will be after many stripes (Lk 12:47) or as by fire (1 Cor 3:15). That temporary chastisement before entrance into the joy of heaven is what you can term to be the purging done in some temporary place that Catholics have termed Purgatory.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

The Gospel (good news) message is Christ crucified and the one who puts his faith in Him HAS eternal life.

No, it isn’t. Without the resurrection, the crucifixion is not good news! You seem to think we just need to believe He suffered the penalty for us.

In fact, He promised life for those believing in Him before He died for us. That should be a clue to you that the faith required of us has to do with Him being from God, and not in merely believing He died in place of our penalty.

The Gospel is the story of God sending His Son into the world, and that He died for our sins according to scriptures, was buried, and rose again. (1 Cor 1:1-5)

Why do you reduce the Gospel to faith in penal substitution? If anything, it would be simplified to Love, as in charity. Those who have charity already have faith and exercise it. But those who have faith do not necessarily have charity (1 Cor 13:2), and risk losing the faith they seem to have (Matt 25:29).

Eternal life is knowing God (John 17:3), Who is love . So eternal life is love, is the act of loving with one’s whole being. We enter eternal life by obeying the commandments (Matt 19:17). These are epitomized by the commandment to love God with our whole being (Deut 6:5). Doing that commandment is the entering of the Kingdom, of loving, and therefore of knowing, obeying, and abiding. This love is charity, is giving to God our whole being. It is just, for God has given Himself to us. It requires faith to initiate it, to die to ourselves, for while we are in ourselves, we might not believe in love, that if we give ourselves truly that God would reward us with Himself. It takes faith (Heb 11:6), and that is why if we put our faith in Him, we “have” life, because He has already given Himself, and constantly gives Himself, like the sunshine to a seedling. And Christ said we must die like a seed to be born (John 12:24-25). So the key of the Gospel is that we must die to ourselves to live in God, we must believe in God’s love in order to be willing to undergo this death, and we find this motivation in the Cross, because Christ died so selflessly, and God raised Him up! So we can believe He will do the same for us in our hearts and souls and our bodies as well. This should be the basis for the faith in God’s love that leads us to follow Him and die to ourselves in very fact! Faith without this work of denying ourselves is no faith at all! Thus, we are saved by the work of our faith, which leads us to die to ourselves and trust in God’s love to reward our sacrifice, even as God rewarded the sacrifice of Christ. We must take a leap of faith, which really means to jump on account of our faith in the love of God to catch us.

But you think salvation is by believing Christ did something for us, as if we didn’t need to do anything. What folly! We must deny ourselves and follow Him. Yet you say this has nothing to do with salvation?! Christian living means dying to the flesh. If you do not do that, you will not be saved, and will have “believed” in vain - because you believed erroneously or incompletely or in the wrong thing. Your belief is an excuse for your sins, and not a reason to live in God through your works. What does it mean to be “saved”?

The Protestants have erred from the truth, and it only makes sense, because the very act of their splitting from the Church is not rooted in charity, nor selfless giving, nor faith in the Love of God. It is rooted in the selfish will to retain control, in the name of opposing the same fault in another, whether of the RCC or of the particular Protestant denomination they are splitting off from, as they do to this very day. And there are others in the RCC who split off from the Vine either individually or as a group who still want to call themselves Catholic, but injure the body of Christ.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

It is the saved who are to live according to their salvation, i.e., according to their calling (see Eph. 4:1). Scripture never requires “Christian” living from a non-Christian.

I agree. And so the Christians who do not live according to the grace they have received will be very embarrassed when they die, and will either suffer loss while yet being saved, or else be cast into the darkness for their wanton neglect.

bene7:

hurst:

It is a gift, yes, but it is a gift “in Christ”, and we must abide in Christ and continue in Christ and remain in Christ and hold fast and persevere in order to keep that gift eternal life.

Then it’s not really a gift, is it? And the words “gift” and “eternal” are meaningless.

Are you so blinded by your own tradition of “eternal gift” that you have begun to oppose other key scripture? Abiding and continuing to abide in Christ is not something I made up.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. 6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. 10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father’s commandments, and do abide in his love.

In any case, when someone receives a gift, they can lose it by their own fault by either throwing it away or trading it for something else. People do sell their souls, unfortunately.

bene7:

hurst:

Same applies for the gift of righteousness. It is not given to us apart from our union with Christ, in whom our righteousness is.

Hurst, is it possible for you to be unborn physically?

Are you saying that once you are born again, you automatically have righteousness in such manner that you can’t lose it anymore than a person can be unborn?

You err. I am not saying one becomes un-born-again. That fact is that by our baptismal rebirth, we are indeed eternally marked, but nonetheless we must then live to God in obedience. If we do not remain in Christ after having been born again and marked, then we are freely choosing to go back into the ways of the world or of the flesh, and when we die and stand before God, it is still possible that He cast us forth out of His presence and be put with the unbelievers. In that case, our punishment will be worse than if we had never believed, because it was in our power to bring glory to God but we chose instead to trade it for the evil deeds of the flesh. Think of Judas, who believed, but then did not persevere. If we turn back before we are out of time, then we can recover some of what was lost, but our evil works will have to be burned (purgatory).

Use it or lose it. Let us endeavor to bring glory to our God who has enabled us to partake of His light.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks to God the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light

God made us worthy indeed, but he who turns back of his own accord is no longer worthy.

Luke 9:62 Jesus said to him: No man putting his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Hebrews 10:38 But my just man liveth by faith; but if he withdraw himself, he shall not please my soul.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

Hurst, have you ever gotten angry with someone (Matt. 5:22). Have you ever looked with lust in your heart (Matt. 5:28)?. Are you as perfect as God (Matt. 5:48)? How many eyes do you have left? How many limbs?

Where does the cross of Christ fit into all of this?

How about as part of our denying ourselves

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.

We must deny ourselves

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

We must not be angry with our brother, but forgive him from the heart, or else God will not forgive us

Mark 11:26 But if you will not forgive, neither will your Father that is in heaven, forgive you your sins.

Matthew 18:35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

We can do this if we truly love God. And we can truly love God by faith. Therefore, we can only do these things by faith. But if we don’t do these things, then we are not showing faith. And if we do the opposite things, we either despise faith or definitely don’t have it. The works of the flesh must be burned either by ourselves in this life or in purgatory in the next before entering heaven, if indeed we don’t disqualify ourselves altogether.

The faith we are supposed to have is faith in the love of God, a faith that believes what God did, so as to cause us to give our lives to Him in return, in a return of love, by the light of faith seeing His love and believing His love. If we believe in His love, whereby He so loved us, then we too will love our neighbor. We will love our neighbor as God loves us. That is the new commandment. That is being perfect as God is perfect. It is giving ourselves completely.

Since we are not perfect yet, then we have not entered fully into life. We must enter through many tribulations (Acts 14:21)

bene7:

Could it be possible there’s an actual context to Matt. 5 which has nothing to do with the Gospel message?

As I have tried to show, the Gospel message is not rooted in the crucifixion as a penalty done for us. It is rooted in Love come in the flesh. A love which, if we believe, we will also imitate. And that is eternal life. And in imitating, we receive the power of God to actually become sons of God and do good works, even greater than those of Christ (John 14:12), to the glory of God. If we do not do the works of God, but decline from them (Heb 10:38), then our eternity becomes one of reproach (Dan 12:2). For all will rise again, but not all will be changed. (1 Cor 15:51)

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

How do you correlate those words of Christ in Matt. 5 with what He said in John 3:14-18, or John 5:24?

(John 3:14) Previous posts bear this out, but to recap, our whole reason to believe Jesus is from God is based on the fact that Christ was raised from the dead. He was lifted up on a cross and died, but then He rose from the dead. That is the whole basis for our faith - the resurrection (1 Cor 15:12-17).

(John 3:15) Those who believe will be given the power to become the sons of God (Rom 1:16, John 1:12). And what is it they must believe? That Christ did everything for us? No! Otherwise, what would we do as new sons of God?! Yet, He did do everything to obtain the power given to us to make us sons, providing we believe. But believe what? Believe that Jesus is God’s Son, His Word, Whom He sent into the world, and that God the Father Himself loves us (John 16:26-31) for loving and keeping Him in our hearts (Lk 11:28). Those who believe are believing in the love of God, and that by sending His son to reconcile the world to himself, we are now welcomed back into the life of grace in Christ, and freed from the slavery to the works of the devil to do the works of God. For Christ came to destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose, the Son of God appeared, that he might destroy the works of the devil

Our faith, if it be true, must lead us to deny ourselves.

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

For the only other option is to deny Christ, and if we do, then we lose the intercession He makes on our behalf, but instead will be denied by Him

Matthew 10:33 But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.

For we cannot serve two masters (Matt 6:24).

Romans 6:16 Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death, or of obedience unto justice.

So again, by true faith, we obey from our hearts the doctrine we learn from Christ, and are freed from sin in doing that

Romans 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you were the servants of sin, but have obeyed from the heart, unto that form of doctrine, into which you have been delivered. 18 Being then freed from sin, we have been made servants of justice.

(John 3:16) We will not perish, which is what would have happened if we had not believed and changed our life

21 What fruit therefore had you then in those things, of which you are now ashamed? For the end of them is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end life everlasting. 23 For the wages of sin is death. But the grace of God, life everlasting, in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And that is the whole point in believing

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity, from a pure heart, and a good conscience, and an unfeigned faith.

To live a good life is to live a life of faith. The just man walks by faith. (Heb 10:38)

(John 3:17) Though God did not send His son to judge the world, but to save it, nevertheless, there are those who refuse to believe, and thus perish (1 Cor 1:18). Yet God has given judgment to the Son.

John 5:22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but hath given all judgment to the Son.

(John 3:18) He that believes is not judged, that is, he is not judged at the moment He returns to God, but is welcomed back on account of the act of faith in God’s good will. Those who do not believe are judging themselves on account of their unwillingness to stop their evil works

John 3:19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil.

Now, works are both secret and public. But if we let the light of Christ in our hearts, our secret deeds are exposed, and we turn from them by the power of God’s grace combined with our true faith.

(continued)

 

[hurst]

(continued from previous post)

Regarding John 5:24

John 5:24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.

In other words, God welcomes us back, right now, if we believe He sent His Son into the world with good will towards us (Lk 2:14). Merry Christmas! We do not come home to an angry God, we do not come into judgment when we return to God. Instead, we enter back into life, the life of love in God. For He has taken our sins and atoned for them in Christ. And if we believe God’s good will for us, then God will count that act of good faith as worthy of His love. And He helped us to make this act of faith by sending His son to fulfill scripture, perform miracles, teach us the Truth that had become distorted, offer Himself as a sacrifice to atone for our sins, rise from the dead, set up His Kingdom, and otherwise be a Prophet, King, and Priest.

Christ came to fulfill the law of charity, which is what the mosaic law was really all about (Rom 13:8-10, Gal 5:14, James 2:8, Matt 22:37-39 etc.). He did away with all the old prescriptions of sacrificing to God, by becoming our One Sacrifice. The old law told us what to do, but could not actually enable us to do it (Rom 8:3) because it relied on works of the flesh. By Christ fulfilling it, He instituted a new law (Rom 8:2,4), and gave us a more perfect commandment (John 13:34, Matt 5:44), enabling us to do so by the gift of His Spirit, which He obtained for us.

We fulfill Matt 5:48 when we love perfectly, which means completely, which means with our whole being, as God has loved us by emptying Himself, which means obeying the greatest commandment and Christ’s new one of loving not only friends but also enemies because He did. And while there was no reward for obeying the old law (apart from escaping punishment), there is a reward for obeying the new law: eternal life. And while the old law was in the flesh, the flesh could not fulfill the old law. But the new law is in the spirit, and we are enabled by the grace merited for us by Christ. But we must invest this grace He entrusts us with to do good works unto the glory of His Father. And we will have to render an account of what we did with it. To whom much is given, much is expected.

Really, true faith and works of the obedient heart cannot be separated. And works of the heart overflow into works of the body towards one’s neighbor and in the fulfilling of the commandments.

But since we are not being perfect, we need to make up for our evil deeds in thought, word, or action by countering them with deeds of faith in thought, word, and action. We need to make our tree good to avoid judgment.

Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good: or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil. For by the fruit the tree is known.

And if we are incomplete, or imperfect in our love by not giving totally of ourselves, yet try to, then we will live, yet as by fire. Thus again, it makes sense and is in accord with the Gospel that we may likely have to spend some time in purging, whether in this life or in the next prior to entrance in heavenly bliss.

hurst