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bene7
Guest
See my post to McKenzie.
Blessings,
Bene
- Status
Blessings,
Bene
M
mosher
Guest
You have a very interesting interpretation. Unfortunatelly you are equating two completely different things. One cannot equate being born of the flesh with water baptism in the contest provided and can in fact only conclude that water baptism is part of being born again of the spirit.
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bene7
Guest
Not really, you’re reading that into the text. Jesus says absolutely nothing about being baptized in his dialogue with Nicodemus. Again, He unquestionably defines Himself in 3:6: “That which is born of flesh is flesh; and that which is born of Spirit is spirit.” The topic is a SECOND birth. The one born of the flesh MUST also be born of the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God. It’s quite simple. Jesus then goes on to say that “whoever believes in Him may in Him have eternal life” (3:15). The new birth being accomplished through faith “in Him;” baptism not in the picture at all.
Blessings,
Bene
J
johnshelby
Guest
Matthew 3:15 (KJV)
“And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now:
for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he
suffered him.”
i believe Jesus recognized the need for baptism to fulfil all
righteousness (( conformity to God’s will )).
i require baptism to be saved, i’m Catholic… my faith
requires me conform to this aspect of God’s will,
your faith doesn’t require this…
both our faiths require we recognize Jesus as the
Christ, our salvation… we both do…
G
Gene_C
Guest
Hi Bene7,
2 Corinthians 5:6-11:
“6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men.”
You quoted part of this passage in one of your responses.
All those who die in a state of grace go to be “with the Lord.” It should be a time of joy, yes? Then why is it also something to fear? What happens at the judgment seat of Christ for those in a state of grace? What will we receive for the “bad” things that we did while in the body?
Peace,
Gene
2 Corinthians 5:6-11:
“6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men.”
You quoted part of this passage in one of your responses.
All those who die in a state of grace go to be “with the Lord.” It should be a time of joy, yes? Then why is it also something to fear? What happens at the judgment seat of Christ for those in a state of grace? What will we receive for the “bad” things that we did while in the body?
Peace,
Gene
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mosher
Guest
However the context must be retained with the coments He made about being baptized. Line and verse cannot be taken out of context of the whole of Scripture.
M
McKenzie
Guest
Yes, I can believe in both because that is what scripture demands of me - all of us. I believe in Jesus and through that faith, which is required, I know I must obey what He commands of me - which is baptism. (So again I will quote what Jesus tells us is necessary - nowhere does it imply that it is an option) “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven” (Jn 3:5)
You can’t just ignore inspired scripture if it doesn’t fit your case. So as I have stated in a previous reply everything you have seen supporting purgatory and the need for baptism does not contradict any of the many quotes you have posted.
Also, I’m assuming you believe that scripture refers that there is only a heaven and a hell. After Jesus died He went to the place called the Limbo of the Fathers, where the just who died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened - see 1Pt 3:19 “in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison.” We know this can’t be heaven and we know this can’t be hell - Right?
So there is a third state, a temporary state. Is this purgatory? We don’t know, but if it is, discussion over. If it is not then we know this verse teaches that this temporary state can exist, so there can be more than just heaven and hell and the Bible tells us so. I think we can agree on this, correct?
Many blessings to you as well.
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Pryority7
Guest
Bene,
I see and understand your point regarding Purgatory because I once shared it.
You are absolutely right, “It is appointed for man to die just once and after this comes judgement” There is just heaven and hell. Jesus paid the price for all of our sins, past, present and future…
But I believe in Purgatory…
You don’t believe in Purgatory due to what you THINK it means…not in what the Catholic Church or even SCRIPTURE for that matter, teaches. Your reason to not believe in purgatory is valid, but your view on what purgatory is is not valid.
What is Purgatory? Allow me to break it down…
I see and understand your point regarding Purgatory because I once shared it.
You are absolutely right, “It is appointed for man to die just once and after this comes judgement” There is just heaven and hell. Jesus paid the price for all of our sins, past, present and future…
But I believe in Purgatory…
You don’t believe in Purgatory due to what you THINK it means…not in what the Catholic Church or even SCRIPTURE for that matter, teaches. Your reason to not believe in purgatory is valid, but your view on what purgatory is is not valid.
What is Purgatory? Allow me to break it down…
- It is…not a place between heaven or hell, not a second chance at salvation after death, not a place where we particularly pay for our sins as if Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough. The Church or Scripture does not teach this…
Purgatory is.
The beginning of Heaven.
What does that mean?
We are in agreement that we are all born with a sin nature. The tendency to sin is with us all of our lives. Romans 7 talks about Paul’s struggle with this. In Heaven there will be no sin. Ironically, as Hal Lindsey, a fundamentalist states in his verse by verse Revelation commentary “There’s a New World Coming” he says that our sin natures will be removed! Now, HOW does this happen?
Purgatory. Purgatory is not us really as much PAYING for our sins, more so that it is us being removed from the PRESENCE of sin. Our sin natures being removed, burned out…we’re being cleansed. Like Gold.
Purgatory is not a psudeo hell. Purgatory is Heaven’s orientation room. It’s the beginning of a new life…the Highest Life. The believer is going through a process of being cleansed from the sin that has been there all his or her life. We will be saying forever goodbye to the sinners we are…and that will hurt because we’re so used to it. A part of us even wants to keep it. But Revelation 21 is clear; nothing unclean can enter. It is the Blood of Christ that is cleaning us of our present sins that we struggle with (sanctification), and this process will finish after we die. We are still saved, still heaven bound, but as we are going there it is Christ who, by His Holy Spirit, ultimately cleans us and prepares us. He makes our filthy rags clean and white. Purgatory does not take away from the saving work of Jesus, Purgatory is the saving work of Jesus being announced complete in the individual believer. It fullfills Christ’s sacrifice, not negates it.
“According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it, for no one can lay a foundationother than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If annyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the DAY will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation (Christ) that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)
We will suffer loss because our souls aren’t used to being sinless. Our works thoughout our lives will either be for God or for ourselves. We have selfish tendencies even behind the things we do for the Lord. This is what will burn after we die. Our lives will be played before us and a full understanding of what and who we truly are will be revealed by that DAY. We may not like what we’ll see, and this “temporal punishment” we may go through is no different than the temporal punishments we go through now. If a woman has an abortion and later repents and turns to Christ, the sin of abortion has indeed been forgiven and applied to the cross, but individually, the woman will still suffer loss…who could that baby might have been…I wish I could go back…my baby… Yet God will hold her in His arms through that pain, because He shares in our sufferings. He will hold us in His loving Arms in the process we call purgatory too. That will make the transition between this life and the next ever more sweeter.
The reference I cited in 1 Corinthians 3 is a scriptual example of Purgatory, even though it is not called that. There is no mention of the word “Trinity” in scripture either, but I’m sure you don’t have a problem with that. In conclusion, Purgatory is part of our sanctification. The consumation of that “great work with God has begun in you”.
Any comments. I’m ready…
P7
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sandusky
Guest
You are right to be concerned about that passage with respect to the notion of purgatory. First, because there is no such thing as purgatory, second, and the heart of the matter, there is, IMO, a failure to comprehend the transformation that spiritual regeneration performs.
It is, IMO, a tragedy that one who professes Christ as his Lord, and as his Savior, has so little hope in the work done by that Lord and Savior, such that he becomes easily convinced that there is something more that he must do after his death to earn the favor of God: endure suffering in purgatory.
Regeneration is so radical that the one who is in Christ is called a New Creation, and is also said to have been created in Christ (2 Cor 5:17; Eph 2:10; 4:24; Col 3:10; cf Gal 6:15). Men are generally referred to as having been procreated, but in this transformation of regeneration, a creative act of God is in view.
This radical transformation affects the spirit of the man, as it is finally brought to life, having been slain in the garden with Adam’s fall, it now, for the first time, lives.
And for that one who has been brought to spiritual life, a continuous process of cleansing is promised in the first epistle of the disciple that Jesus loved.
1 John 1:7
7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Notice the universality of that statement of fact. Belief in Christ cleanses the believer from ALL sin—not just some, but all.
That verb, cleanses (Gk katharizo), from which we get our word, catharsis is in the present, active, indicative. IOW, it is a state of being that is continual; IOW, the one who believes in Christ, is in a state of continually being cleansed by His blood.
Furthermore, Christ Himself says that the one who hears His words and believes, does not come into judgment. Certainly, purgatory is judgment, and the requiring of a satisfaction of God’s justice that is so great a requirement, that only He could satisfy it by the sacrifice of Himself. How is that you believe that you can satisfy God’s justice more than He has satisfied His justice, by the sacrifice of Himself?
Church Militant is right on one point: “* BTW, that passage has nothing whatever to do with the condition of one’s soul…it’s about the resurrection of the physical bodies of believers.*”
The spiritual condition of the believer is that of a permanent cleansing; all the believer now awaits is his new physical body.
There is no need for further purgation of sin.
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Pryority7
Guest
Wow. You didn’t apparently read my post. Please read it and then respond. Have an open mind. I believe we are both on the same page, but our reading comprehension differs.
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sandusky
Guest
I did read your post. It is amusing that you “believe that we are on the same page.” You believe in purgatory; I do not. How is that the same page? We are not even in the same book, let alone on the same page, and that speaks to the big difference in “reading comprehension.” It is too bad that you once had a belief in the non-existence of purgatory, but now do.
You offer as a “scriptural proof” of purgatory 1 Cor 3:10-15, and then at the finish of your post you state:
Pryority 7:
I’ll say it is not called that in 1 Cor 3, that passage has nothing to do with purgatory, as purgatory does not exist; you then offer the JW nonsense concerning the word “trinity” not being in scripture as a defense for the lack of the word “purgatory” not being scripture. The trinity can be shown from scripture; purgatory cannot.
You continue:
Pryority 7:
(Edited for lack of charity) A part of you may want to keep your sin, but no part of me wants to keep my sin. Where do you get the idea that being done with sin will hurt?
Pryority 7:
And nothing unclean will enter heaven because all will be perfectly holy, but not because of some non-existent purgatorial purification. One whose faith is truly in Christ is clean. It is by His blood we are released from the guilt of sin (Rom 5:9; Eph 1:7; Rev 1:5), and that release and cleansing is continuous (1 Jn 1:7), and our sin is forgotten by God (Heb 10:17). Why do you insist that further cleansing is needed?
Pryority 7:
Not after we die, but when we die. When die we are finally glorified, that glorification that was perfected before time began is finally realized (Rom 8:30; Eph 1:4).
Pryority 7:
That is (Edited for lack of charity) nothing but your own personal musing and spiritualizing; it is not scriptural.
Pryority 7:
It is the work that is tested by fire, not the man (cf 1 Cor 3:13).
Pryority 7:
More spiritualizing and musing; (Edited for lack of charity). In death, the believer gains (Php 1:21).
There is no final purgation in purgatory because there is no purgatory; that is the good news
M
Mickey
Guest
Whether you believe in purgatory or not, if you continue in your lack of charity, it is possible that you may be dwelling in the toasty regions one day. :bigyikes:
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Pryority7
Guest
Actually the good news is that Christ died for our sins and set us free from eternal dammnation…you didn’t know?I did read your post. It is amusing that you “believe that we are on the same page.” You believe in purgatory; I do not. How is that the same page? We are not even in the same book, let alone on the same page, and that speaks to the big difference in “reading comprehension.” It is too bad that you once had a belief in the non-existence of purgatory, but now do.
That’s because I have a clear understanding of what purgatory is and you apparently don’t. That’s why you deny it’s existence. What I meant by the same page is that we are in agreement that God will remove our sin when we go to be with Him…unless of course you believe that you will be perfect and flawless before you die…
You offer as a “scriptural proof” of purgatory 1 Cor 3:10-15, and then at the finish of your post you state:
I’ll say it is not called that in 1 Cor 3, that passage has nothing to do with purgatory, as purgatory does not exist; you then offer the JW nonsense concerning the word “trinity” not being in scripture as a defense for the lack of the word “purgatory” not being scripture. The trinity can be shown from scripture; purgatory cannot.
There are other scritptures that refer to purgatory just as there are numerous scriptures that can refer to the Trinity. By the way, your “christian” approach to this debate floors me.
You continue:
(Edited for lack of charity) A part of you may want to keep your sin, but no part of me wants to keep my sin. Where do you get the idea that being done with sin will hurt?
**Simply because sin is not just an action that we do, it’s a part of our essence as far as our fallen nature is concerned. This continues to be something that you and I and every other believer will continue to struggle with and go through until the day we die…“A dead person has been absolved from sin” (Romans 6:7) How do you think that absolving takes place? We can deny our selfishness and our sinfulness, but something inside will always try to deter away from our commitment to Christ. If you read C.S. Lewis’s “The Great Divorce”, the souls heading to heaven are in pain because they are slowly becoming more “solid” more real, less like a transparent ghost. You should read it. **
And nothing unclean will enter heaven because all will be perfectly holy, but not because of some non-existent purgatorial purification. One whose faith is truly in Christ is clean. It is by His blood we are released from the guilt of sin (Rom 5:9; Eph 1:7; Rev 1:5), and that release and cleansing is continuous (1 Jn 1:7), and our sin is forgotten by God (Heb 10:17). Why do you insist that further cleansing is needed?**Simply because the blood of Christ cleanses us…both now and in preparation for the Throne Room after we die. From an eternal perspective, our sin IS forgotten, but in practicality with the individual that needs to be actualized and experienced. The cleansing is continuous right into the moment we go to be with Him. He will clean us out…and He is is doing that even now. **
Not after we die, but when we die. When die we are finally glorified, that glorification that was perfected before time began is finally realized (Rom 8:30; Eph 1:4).**Right, realized but for the individual, has to be experienced. You think it’s just instantaneous that…bling!!!..I’m glorified!!! It might very well be instantaneous! There is no real time frame for purgatory or heaven, our final cleansing could happen very fast from eternity’s view, so you might have a point. **
That is (Edited for lack of charity)nothing but your own personal musing and spiritualizing; it is not scriptural.
This is actually not my own musing. It is not only scriptual but it has also been the teaching of the Church from the very beginning, another issue you apparently have since you believe in the whole “sola scriptura” thing, at least from your post it’s what I assume.
It is the work that is tested by fire, not the man (cf 1 Cor 3:13).
**How can you scrutinize that? By the way, a work doesn’t “suffer loss”, only people do that. The work might be tested, but it’s the man who suffers loss, though he is still saved but as through fire. This scripture talks about “The Day”. Throughout scripture "The Day refers to the “Day of the Lord”, our experience of that will be either when A) we die and be with Him or B) When Christ comes again. **
More spiritualizing and musing; (Edited for lack of charity). In death, the believer gains (Php 1:21).
There is no final purgation in purgatory because there is no purgatory; that is the good news
P
Pryority7
Guest
By the way, here are scriptual references to what the Church’s “musings” refer to purgatory:
Matthew 12:32
Of course, 1 Corinthians 3:15
2 Maccabees 12:43-45…OOOOPS!!! That’s right! You don’t believe that this book is inspired but that it was added in the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation…right?
When in truth this book has always been a part of the original canon from the very beginning. It was Martin Luther and others who pulled this book and six others like it from the Bible. Do your history…you’ll be surprised by what you may find…
Or are you afraid to
?
Sanctification involves suffering (Romans 5:3-5) Purgatory is the final stage of sanctification. Your view of Justification makes my God look more like a lawyer than like a Father.
Matthew 12:32
Of course, 1 Corinthians 3:15
2 Maccabees 12:43-45…OOOOPS!!! That’s right! You don’t believe that this book is inspired but that it was added in the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation…right?
When in truth this book has always been a part of the original canon from the very beginning. It was Martin Luther and others who pulled this book and six others like it from the Bible. Do your history…you’ll be surprised by what you may find…
Or are you afraid to
?Sanctification involves suffering (Romans 5:3-5) Purgatory is the final stage of sanctification. Your view of Justification makes my God look more like a lawyer than like a Father.
G
Gene_C
Guest
Hi all,
If all sins are pardoned and cleansed at conversion, then please explain the following passages of Scripture:
1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
The Greek word for multitude is kalupto, which means to hide or veil. Thayer’s Lexicon has this to say about its use in the above passage: “not to regard or impute them, i.e., to pardon them.”
James 5:20
Remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Same word for multitude. Thayer’s Lexicon says of this passage that it means to procure pardon of them from God.
The context of both of these verses reveals that it is talking to disciples of Christ. So loving one another can “cover” over sins, and if a Christian turns away from the Lord, when he/she is brought back, when his/her heart turns to the Lord once again, sins are pardoned.
I thought all sins are pardoned when a sinner “believes”?
Peace,
Gene
If all sins are pardoned and cleansed at conversion, then please explain the following passages of Scripture:
1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
The Greek word for multitude is kalupto, which means to hide or veil. Thayer’s Lexicon has this to say about its use in the above passage: “not to regard or impute them, i.e., to pardon them.”
James 5:20
Remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Same word for multitude. Thayer’s Lexicon says of this passage that it means to procure pardon of them from God.
The context of both of these verses reveals that it is talking to disciples of Christ. So loving one another can “cover” over sins, and if a Christian turns away from the Lord, when he/she is brought back, when his/her heart turns to the Lord once again, sins are pardoned.
I thought all sins are pardoned when a sinner “believes”?
Peace,
Gene
G
Gene_C
Guest
I forgot to post this passage from Scripture:
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
So there are sins that lead to death, and sins that do not led to death. Sounds like John believed in mortal sins and venial sins.
And it sounds like venial sins, the sins that do not lead to death, can be forgiven by the prayers of other Christians. Yes or no?
So what would happen to the Christian who dies with these venial sins, or if you prefer, sins that do not lead to death, on their soul because they haven’t been forgiven of them, they haven’t repented and asked forgiveness? Does God let them into heaven anyway?
Yes, it is through Christ and His death on the Cross that our sins are forgiven, but HOW that forgiveness is applied to us is the big question.
How about this?
Acts 22:16 (Paul relating his conversion)
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.
Baptism washes away sins?
Peace,
Gene
1 John 5:16-17
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
So there are sins that lead to death, and sins that do not led to death. Sounds like John believed in mortal sins and venial sins.
And it sounds like venial sins, the sins that do not lead to death, can be forgiven by the prayers of other Christians. Yes or no?
So what would happen to the Christian who dies with these venial sins, or if you prefer, sins that do not lead to death, on their soul because they haven’t been forgiven of them, they haven’t repented and asked forgiveness? Does God let them into heaven anyway?
Yes, it is through Christ and His death on the Cross that our sins are forgiven, but HOW that forgiveness is applied to us is the big question.
How about this?
Acts 22:16 (Paul relating his conversion)
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.
Baptism washes away sins?
Peace,
Gene
B
bene7
Guest
Pryority:
1 COR. 3:13 “…each man’s WORK will become evident; for the day will show it, because it will be revealed (not “purged”) with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s WORK.”
1COR. 4:5 "Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.
HEB 1:3 “And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;”
Your theory of “Purgatory” stems from two sources: unbelief and ignorance (and it seems both wilfull). Unbelief in what is revealed in Scripture as to what Christ Himself accomplished on the cross, and ignorance as to just what a substitutionary, sin-sacrifice actually is and accomplishes.
"Pryority," when you read the Hebrews passage above, what is it saying to you?
Continued to above post:
Actually, my friend, I don’t believe in “Purgatory” because Scripture reveals no such thing or place. And no one has yet provided me with the name of the person or persons to whom God revealed such a concept. So tell me, “Pry,” to whom did God reveal it?
Proof?
Really? Then why do most Catholics quote this verse as a proof-text? MAT 5:26 “Truly I say to you, you shall not come out of there, until you have paid up the last cent.”
Proof? Let’s look at 1 Cor. 3:7-17. In context Paul is most clearly talking about “works” and their quality, not sin. In verse eight he states that one will receive his own reward according to his own LABOR. In context he states absolutely nothing concerning sin or even a “sin-nature.” What is being tested by the “fire” (used symbolically for judgment/appraisal) is the quality of a believer’s “labor” which he builds upon the foundation, Jesus Christ (vs. 11). The “fire” in context is revelatory in nature, not purgatory in any sense, since it is not the believer himself, his sins, or his “sin-nature” that is being tested or “purged” by the fire. But the fire is testing (infact, revealing) the value of the quality of the believer’s “WORKS”, his “LABOR” by an omniscient God who understand even the motives behind one’s actions. There is no reference to sin or sin-nature whatsoever in 1 Cor. 3:7-17.
1 COR. 3:13 “…each man’s WORK will become evident; for the day will show it, because it will be revealed (not “purged”) with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s WORK.”
1COR. 4:5 "Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.
Proof?
Obviously this is opinion only. You can’t quote Scripture on this because Scripture itself testifies against you:
HEB 1:3 “And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;”
Your theory of “Purgatory” stems from two sources: unbelief and ignorance (and it seems both wilfull). Unbelief in what is revealed in Scripture as to what Christ Himself accomplished on the cross, and ignorance as to just what a substitutionary, sin-sacrifice actually is and accomplishes.
"Pryority," when you read the Hebrews passage above, what is it saying to you?
Continued to above post:
B
bene7
Guest
To Pryority, continued from post below:
Pryority, you’re all over the place with your theory of Purgatory. And you have yet to prove any of it based on divine revelation. Overall, Scripture reveals that no man can suffer for the cleansing of his own sins, but that a man is cleansed from all sin through the once-for-all suffering and death of only one Man, the Man Christ Jesus.
Blessings,
Bene
Your interpretation here makes no sense based on what is revealed in the context, specifically, the evaluation of the quality a believer’s works, not the purging of sins or one’s “sin-nature.”
You are now denying you own words. Above you said it was about purging one’s “sin-nature.”
The text says nothing about revealing “what” or “who” we are. “What” and “who” the true believer is is based on what and who the true believer is in Christ Jesus. And this is revealed in MANY passages, especially Paul’s Epistles (i.e., 2 Cor. 5:17).
Yet the text states NOTHING about any kind of punishment being executed on the believer at that time.
Pryority, you’re all over the place with your theory of Purgatory. And you have yet to prove any of it based on divine revelation. Overall, Scripture reveals that no man can suffer for the cleansing of his own sins, but that a man is cleansed from all sin through the once-for-all suffering and death of only one Man, the Man Christ Jesus.
Blessings,
Bene
G
Gene_C
Guest
Hey Bene,
Excuse me for butting in but 2 Corinthians 5 tells us that Christians will be judged and receive what is due for things done in the body, whether good or BAD.
The context of the passage is at death when the Christian goes before the Lord.
And Paul says this causes us to fear the Lord.
Peace,
Gene
Excuse me for butting in but 2 Corinthians 5 tells us that Christians will be judged and receive what is due for things done in the body, whether good or BAD.
The context of the passage is at death when the Christian goes before the Lord.
And Paul says this causes us to fear the Lord.
Peace,
Gene
B
bekalc
Guest
The idea of purgatory comes from the Jewish Tradition. (Read Maccabees) even though most Jews (some do) do not accept the Deutercanoicals. They do believe in a cleansing state. Orthodox Jews still pray for their dead today, (for 11 months) and say prayers for them.
This is where the idea of purgatory came from. Maccabees makes clear that Jews believed it before Jesus, and well the writings of the Church fathers makes it clear that Christians believed it afterwards. Purgatory was not some idea that people made up, at some point in time. Jesus himself never condemned the idea of Purgatory, and even affirmed the resurrection of the dead, which is well tied to Purgatory. For the record “the Bible only” Sadduccees rejected Purgatory and the resurrection of the dead, because it wasn’t found “clearly” in Scripture. Just like you reject purgatory. And Jesus told the Sadduccess that they didn’t know how to read Scripture.
Since its clear Jews believed in purgatory (or at least Jews that belonged to Jesus camp, we believe that Jesus made references that can only be referring to the cleasing state, that all Orthodox Jews believed in. It’s all about the preconceptions/understanding you come in with.
So, I would be very careful about accussing this idea of purgatory, since it has been part of the belief of God’s people for 1500 years, until Luther came. You can disagree with it, but this idea was never condemned in Scripture.
The whole point with purgatory is this. On earth, we sin still. In heaven, there will be no more sinning. So, somewhere between heaven and earth, or tendancy to sin, must be dealt with… Scripture doesn’t clearlly say either, that we will be automatically wiped from our sinful nature right when we die either. Please find me the verse where it clearly states that on. And I would also ask you why God doesn’t get rid of our tendency to sin, no here on earth. If there were perfect Christians walking around, wouldn’t more people be likely to believe the gospel. Maybe the reason God doesn’t get rid of our sinful nature, is because He wants us to learn something. Which is well kind of the concept of purgatory too.
I want to point out that the idea that purgatory comes from the Jewish Tradition, because its important to note that Catholics are actually very careful about doctrine and are uncomfortable with any type of new teaching. Purgatory was not something the Catholic Church made up, the idea existed before Catholicism.
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