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Pryority7
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Gene_C
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2 Corinthians 5
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men.
2 Timothy 1
16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.
Paul is referring to the household of Onesiphorus and not to him directly. Why? Because he is dead. Why then offer a prayer for him if he is already in heaven?
1 Corinthians 3
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. 16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
Any interpretation that puts this passage in the context of only those who are ministers of the Lord are ignoring the context. EVERYONE builds on their own foundation of Christ in their lives. Look at verses 16 and 17. He is talking to ALL followers of Christ, not just ministers of the Gospel.
Does anyone doubt that these three passages of Scripture from the pen of St. Paul are related?
There is something going on here after death for the person who is in a state of grace, or if you prefer to say for the person who is saved. Our sanctification doesn’t stop at death. It continues in the afterlife but only for those who chose to follow Jesus while here on earth.
Peace,
Gene
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. 11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men.
2 Timothy 1
16 May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17 On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18 May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus.
Paul is referring to the household of Onesiphorus and not to him directly. Why? Because he is dead. Why then offer a prayer for him if he is already in heaven?
1 Corinthians 3
10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. 16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
Any interpretation that puts this passage in the context of only those who are ministers of the Lord are ignoring the context. EVERYONE builds on their own foundation of Christ in their lives. Look at verses 16 and 17. He is talking to ALL followers of Christ, not just ministers of the Gospel.
Does anyone doubt that these three passages of Scripture from the pen of St. Paul are related?
There is something going on here after death for the person who is in a state of grace, or if you prefer to say for the person who is saved. Our sanctification doesn’t stop at death. It continues in the afterlife but only for those who chose to follow Jesus while here on earth.
Peace,
Gene
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bene7
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Gene C.:
Blessings,
Bene
The problem is, Gene, none of those verses actually present or teach the Catholic doctrine of “Purgatory.” You can’t just* read into* a text your own developed doctrines. That’s what the cults do.
Blessings,
Bene
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bene7
Guest
Gene C.:
Blessings,
Bene
Yes, but this passage says NOTHING about one’s stint in “Purgatory,” or sins even being cleansed or purged at that time. In fact, just prior to verse ten Paul emphatically states that to be absent from the body is to be “AT HOME WITH THE LORD;” which he says is preferred. This appraisal of our WORKS (not sins), done in the body while in this life, is expanded upon by Paul in 1 Cor. 3 (of which I’ve already commented - see my previous post). 2 Cor. 5 has nothing to do with cleansing or purging of sins.
Blessings,
Bene
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bene7
Guest
Pryority said:
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bene7
Guest
First, the Jews did not believe in “Purgatory.” It’s not an O.T. concept. Second, read the account in 2 Macc.12"
39: On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40: Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen.
41: So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden;
42: and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
You’ll notice that the sin of the men who had fallen was idolatry. This, according to Catholicism, is a “mortal” sin. Those who die, according to Catholic tradition, in mortal sin (outside a state of grace) go straight to hell, not “Purgatory.” Only venial sins can be dealt with in “Purgatory.” So, to build your argument for “Purgatory” on this 2 Macc. passage, you then must conclude that when Catholics die, even in a state of mortal sin (like idolatry), they’re eventually allowed to enter Heaven (rather than Hell), because the living can pray them into Heaven. But based on what I’ve read, this is not what Catholicism teaches concerning “mortal sins.” Third, 2 Macc. simply records what Judas did. It doesn’t say he was correct in what he did. He acted in what he thought was in accordance with the Law of Moses, which was to present in Jerusalem a sin offering on behalf of those men who had fallen in battle, which he understood to be a direct judgment by God because of their idolatry. But there was no sacrificial provision under the Mosaic Law which covered the sin of unbelief, the sin of idolatry. Nor was there any command in the Mosaic Law to present sacrifice on behalf of the dead. It was recorded in the book what Judas did, but what Judas did was in error. And you’re trying to build your doctrine of “Purgatory” on his error. You see, Bekalc, “error begets error.”
It doesn’t matter what Jews “believed” prior to Christ. They believed in many erroneous doctrines and traditions for which Jesus Himself constantly rebuked them. What matters is not what the Jews believed, but what God Himself revealed to them through the Prophets and the Law. They had the Scriptures just as we do.
Sure it is. It’s not found anywhere in Scripture. Not even in 2 Macc. (Judas’ actions were based on his misunderstanding of the Mosaic Law, plus Jews had no concept of the Catholic idea of “Purgatory”). So if the idea of “Purgatory” is not revealed through Divine revelation, then its origin must be in the fertile imaginations of mere men (rooted in unbelief).
Blessings,
Bene
C
Church_Militant
Guest
bene7 said:
, the Jews did not believe in “Purgatory.” It’s not an O.T. concept. Second, read the account in 2 Macc.12
BeneThis is not true, the Jews DO believe in a “purgatory” and the Jewish evidence that I offer here is from an Orthodox Jew living in Israel who post regularly here on this forum!
There is ample evidence that the Bible implicitly teaches a Purgatory.
Begin with Matthew 12:32, which says, “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” Does this not imply that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come? Now think this through…There is no sin to forgive in heaven, right? Sin is not forgiven in hell because it’s too late and permanent. So…Implicit “purgatory”
1st Corinthians 3:15 which says, “If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” Again this cannot refer to heaven or hell for the same reasons as above. This is essentially the definition of Purgatory.
1st Peter 3:18-20 which says, “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.”
and 1st Peter 4:6 which says, “For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit” Note that it was a prison for disobedient spirits and yet they were saved when Jesus preached to them.
2nd Maccabees 12:44-46 which says, "44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. 46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. "
The same reasons apply here as to the first passages I gave you…
Note also that St. Paul says that the early church believed this in 1st Corinthians 15:29 which says, "Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? " He does not condemn this practice though it seems to have fallen out of practice…
The Jews also believe this and still do today (as if the passage from 2nd Maccabees doesn’t clearly show this). I offer info from my good friend Andy who is an Orthodox Jew who lives in Israel:
"Hi all!
Our prayer, the Mourner’s Kaddish, is for the benefit of the soul of the deceased & is believed to ease the spiritual status of the deceased’s soul as it goes through whatever trials & tribulations it may be subject to. Yes, we do believe in something akin to the Roman Catholic notion of Purgatory & thus saying the Mourner’s Kaddish would be similar to the Roman Catholic idea of praying for the souls in Purgatory.
Look at ou.org/yerushalayim/kadish.htm#Meaning .
The text there is the (5 clause) Mourner’s Kaddish in Hebrew, transliterated English & English (you can also listen to it in RealAudio).
Cont’d
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Church_Militant
Guest
As I understand it, a soul that has sinned in this world has to pay for its actions/inactions in the next world. We do not automatically & necessarily divide souls into the entirely righteous who will therefore enjoy enternal bliss and the entirely evil who will therefore suffer eternal damnation. The degrees in between are infinite & we believe that God rewards/punishes each soul according to its good/not good actions. As I said, the recitation of the Kaddish prayer is believed to benefit the soul of the deceased as it goes through whatever trials and tribulations it has to endure in the next world.
In addition to the aforementioned Kaddish prayer (which is usually said by a son for a departed parent for 11 months after the day of burial, but which can also be said for 30 days for a spouse, child or sibling, particularly if none of these have children to say the Kaddish; the Kaddish is also recited on the anniversary of the burial), there are the Yizkor (literally: “He will remember”) and E-l Maleh Rahamim (literally: “God Full of Mercy”) prayers (see ou.org/yerushalayim/yizkor/) which are recited 4 times a year on Yom Kippur, the last day of Passover, Shavuot and Shemini Atzeret (see jewfaq.org/toc.htm for links to all of these holydays).
I submit the following excerpt (from jewfaq.org/death.htm):
I had already discovered this in talking to a devout Orthodox Jewish buddy of mine and Andy was kind enough to help out with all this info as well.
I hope this answers your questions on all this and provides you with the sure knowlege that in spite of allegations to the contrary, the concept of Purgatory is indeed quite scriptural.
Pax vobiscum,
In addition to the aforementioned Kaddish prayer (which is usually said by a son for a departed parent for 11 months after the day of burial, but which can also be said for 30 days for a spouse, child or sibling, particularly if none of these have children to say the Kaddish; the Kaddish is also recited on the anniversary of the burial), there are the Yizkor (literally: “He will remember”) and E-l Maleh Rahamim (literally: “God Full of Mercy”) prayers (see ou.org/yerushalayim/yizkor/) which are recited 4 times a year on Yom Kippur, the last day of Passover, Shavuot and Shemini Atzeret (see jewfaq.org/toc.htm for links to all of these holydays).
I submit the following excerpt (from jewfaq.org/death.htm):
In addition to the Kaddish. it is believed that the recitation of the Yizkor and E-l Maleh Rahamim prayers are beneficial to the soul of the departed. On the anniversary of the burial, it is common to study some chapter of the Talmud or the Tanakh (what we call what Christians call the “Old Testament”), read a selection of Psalms, give to charity, etc. in honor/memory of the departed. This is also believed to be beneficial."
I had already discovered this in talking to a devout Orthodox Jewish buddy of mine and Andy was kind enough to help out with all this info as well.
I hope this answers your questions on all this and provides you with the sure knowlege that in spite of allegations to the contrary, the concept of Purgatory is indeed quite scriptural.
Pax vobiscum,
P
Pryority7
Guest
Thanks for that info on the Mourner’s Kaddish…it has helped me reaffirm what I believe in regards to Purgatory. These people here denying this stuff are just not getting it. They think they have if figured out…I mean come on man! None of this is getting through to them, and I used to believe the same thing they did…but I researched…if discovered and I’m at so much peace on this now it’s ridiculous. It’s all about Jesus and what He did for me man.
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bene7
Guest
Church Militant:
The passages you provided do not teach anything about “Purgatory.” You read that developed doctrine into them, but it is impossible to get that doctrine OUT of them.
Something like “Purgatory” must be divinely revealed. There must be DIRECT, divine teaching on it, like the doctrine of Hell. There is no direct teaching on such a place found in the Scriptures, Old or New Testament.
Blessings,
Bene
Like I said, it’s not what Jews or Christians believe, but what has been REVEALED by God. It’s what has been divinely revealed that men are to set their faith and build doctrine. Jews have/had many traditions that do not/did not line up with God’s revealed Word. And like I said, Jesus in His day strongly rebuked them because they deviated from God’s Word. Your friend’s “Mourners Kaddish” is not found in, nor based on the Mosaic Law, or the Writings or the Prophets of the Old Testament. This is something they choose to believe in on their own. It’s a doctrine according to men, not God. Believing in it doesn’t make it true. “Purgatory” fits into this category as well.
The passages you provided do not teach anything about “Purgatory.” You read that developed doctrine into them, but it is impossible to get that doctrine OUT of them.
Something like “Purgatory” must be divinely revealed. There must be DIRECT, divine teaching on it, like the doctrine of Hell. There is no direct teaching on such a place found in the Scriptures, Old or New Testament.
Blessings,
Bene
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bene7
Guest
Why do you thank him for revealing to you what an unbelieving Jew thinks? I know many Messianic Jews (Jews who actually believe in Jesus as Savior and Messiah) who don’t believe in praying for the dead, helping them along their “journey,” nor see such a teaching in any of the Scriptures, Old or New Testament. Because an unbelieving Jew believes a doctrine similiar to yours reaffirms your belief in that doctrine??? Strange way to approach the faith “which was once for all delivered to the saints.” They’re wrong about Christ but right about the dead?
Blessings,
Bene
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bene7
Guest
To: Church Militant:
In the “Meaning of the Kaddish” it states:
"The theme of Kaddish is, rather, the Greatness of G-d, Who conducts the entire universe, and especially his most favored creature, each individual human being, with careful supervision. In this prayer, we also pray for peace - from apparently the only One Who can guarantee it - peace between nations, peace between individuals, and peace of mind.
Yet in the New Testament it says “Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1).
I find it amazing you resort to the prayers of unbelieving Jews for their dead to prove your doctrine of “Purgatory.” Why?
Notice in John 11 that when Lazarus died Martha told Jesus that she knew he would rise again on the “last day” (based on Dan. 12:2). But there was no hint of her praying for his soul or the idea that Lazarus was now, after death, being purified of his sins. This “Mourner’s Kaddish” is based solely on Rabbinical teaching, not Mosaic Law. True Judaism is based on what is revealed in the Law (which was to lead them to faith in Christ that they may be justified by faith, Gal. 3:24), not the many and varied teachings (traditions) of the Rabbis whose teachings provide a false hope and reject the cross of Christ by which they might be saved and have peace with the God of their fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Blessings,
Bene
In the “Meaning of the Kaddish” it states:
"The theme of Kaddish is, rather, the Greatness of G-d, Who conducts the entire universe, and especially his most favored creature, each individual human being, with careful supervision. In this prayer, we also pray for peace - from apparently the only One Who can guarantee it - peace between nations, peace between individuals, and peace of mind.
Yet in the New Testament it says “Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1).
I find it amazing you resort to the prayers of unbelieving Jews for their dead to prove your doctrine of “Purgatory.” Why?
Notice in John 11 that when Lazarus died Martha told Jesus that she knew he would rise again on the “last day” (based on Dan. 12:2). But there was no hint of her praying for his soul or the idea that Lazarus was now, after death, being purified of his sins. This “Mourner’s Kaddish” is based solely on Rabbinical teaching, not Mosaic Law. True Judaism is based on what is revealed in the Law (which was to lead them to faith in Christ that they may be justified by faith, Gal. 3:24), not the many and varied teachings (traditions) of the Rabbis whose teachings provide a false hope and reject the cross of Christ by which they might be saved and have peace with the God of their fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Blessings,
Bene
C
Church_Militant
Guest
, but what has been REVEALED by God. It’s what has been divinely revealed that men are to set their faith and build doctrine. Jews have/had many traditions that do not/did not line up with God’s revealed Word. And like I said, Jesus in His day strongly rebuked them because they deviated from God’s Word. Your friend’s “Mourners Kaddish” is not found in, nor based on the Mosaic Law, or the Writings or the Prophets of the Old Testament. This is something they choose to believe in on their own. It’s a doctrine according to men, not God. Believing in it doesn’t make it true. “Purgatory” fits into this category as well.
The passages you provided do not teach anything about “Purgatory.” You read that developed doctrine into them, but it is impossible to get that doctrine OUT of them.
Something like “Purgatory” must be divinely revealed. There must be DIRECT, divine teaching on it, like the doctrine of Hell. There is no direct teaching on such a place found in the Scriptures, Old or New Testament.
Blessings,
BeneBunk! The same can be said of you since you simply REFUSE to accept anything that doesn’t comply with what you’ve been led to believe.
Based on your tests for belief, you would have to deny all implicit doctrines in the Word of God and that means that you have to reject the Trinity and the Incarnation.
Unfortunately your basic flaw is the error of Sola Scriptura anyway, since that is the fundamental error that all your thinking is based upon.
You can say what you wish, but the passages I offered are clear and your denial of their truth does not make it so. (Again, the very same argument that you just sought to use on us!) The facts are there…the rest is up to the Holy Spirit.
Pax vobiscum,
C
Church_Militant
Guest
:
In the “Meaning of the Kaddish” it states:
"The theme of Kaddish is, rather, the Greatness of G-d, Who conducts the entire universe, and especially his most favored creature, each individual human being, with careful supervision. In this prayer, we also pray for peace - from apparently the only One Who can guarantee it - peace between nations, peace between individuals, and peace of mind.
Yet in the New Testament it says “Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1).
I find it amazing you resort to the prayers of unbelieving Jews for their dead to prove your doctrine of “Purgatory.” Why?
Notice in John 11 that when Lazarus died Martha told Jesus that she knew he would rise again on the “last day” (based on Dan. 12:2). But there was no hint of her praying for his soul or the idea that Lazarus was now, after death, being purified of his sins. This “Mourner’s Kaddish” is based solely on Rabbinical teaching, not Mosaic Law. True Judaism is based on what is revealed in the Law (which was to lead them to faith in Christ that they may be justified by faith, Gal. 3:24), not the many and varied teachings (traditions) of the Rabbis whose teachings provide a false hope and reject the cross of Christ by which they might be saved and have peace with the God of their fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Blessings,
BeneWhy should that bother you when you resort to the text of the unbvelieving Jews at Jamnia for the canon of YOUR whole Old Testament!
It’s okay for you, but not okay for Catholics.? Double standard?Pax vobiscum,
B
bekalc
Guest
Yet in the New Testament it says “Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1).
I find it amazing you resort to the prayers of unbelieving Jews for their dead to prove your doctrine of “Purgatory.” Why?
Notice in John 11 that when Lazarus died Martha told Jesus that she knew he would rise again on the “last day” (based on Dan. 12:2). But there was no hint of her praying for his soul or the idea that Lazarus was now, after death, being purified of his sins. This “Mourner’s Kaddish” is based solely on Rabbinical teaching, not Mosaic Law. True Judaism is based on what is revealed in the Law (which was to lead them to faith in Christ that they may be justified by faith, Gal. 3:24), not the many and varied teachings (traditions) of the Rabbis whose teachings provide a false hope and reject the cross of Christ by which they might be saved and have peace with the God of their fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Blessings,
Bene
Jesus condemned the Pharisees legalistic traditions. But he sided with them on teachings about the Resurection which the Sadduccess rejected because it wasn’t one hundred percent revealed in the Old Testament. Jesus also never condmened the idea of praying for the dead…And it was once again a common practice of the time. We know from the very earliest days the early Christians believed in a third place too. So the burden of proof is on the people who deny it. Since, shouldn’t we be at the very least trying to come into it with the same cultural mindset Jesus had?
M
McKenzie
Guest
Bene,
I still would like to see a reply to my post on January 24, or from anyone else with the no-purgatory belief for that matter, in regards to the existence of a temporary third state?
I still would like to see a reply to my post on January 24, or from anyone else with the no-purgatory belief for that matter, in regards to the existence of a temporary third state?
P
Pryority7
Guest
I think the whole problem is indeed based on the Sola Scriptura idea…Bene…you HAVE to hold on to that or your whole argument collapses. I won’t repeat the replies Church Militant already presented…they speak for themselves.
Remember this though…Jesus told the people at the time to listen to everything the Pharisees teach them, just don’t follow their example. Your anti-tradition concept leads you to believe that EVERY tradition is made made…that it’s not from God. That’s outrageous man…Scripture itself teaches against Sola Scriptura! Both Scripture and history testify against you and those who follow what you state about your “if it’s not in the Bible, I won’t believe it” philosophy. We can start if you wish a new thread debating the whole sola scriptura thing…If that view falls through, so will alot of things…including Purgatory. To the Catholic Mindset, it doesn’t matter if Purgatory isn’t revealed directly in scripture, because the believe is in harmony with
Christs’ sacrifice for our sins and in the essence of Heaven, which is revealed in scripture. Dude, you have to do your research on the subject, or find another thing to debate about. I’ll keep going with this though, even though we’re gonna find ourselve repeating the same thing over and over and over again, therefore going no where.
Remember this though…Jesus told the people at the time to listen to everything the Pharisees teach them, just don’t follow their example. Your anti-tradition concept leads you to believe that EVERY tradition is made made…that it’s not from God. That’s outrageous man…Scripture itself teaches against Sola Scriptura! Both Scripture and history testify against you and those who follow what you state about your “if it’s not in the Bible, I won’t believe it” philosophy. We can start if you wish a new thread debating the whole sola scriptura thing…If that view falls through, so will alot of things…including Purgatory. To the Catholic Mindset, it doesn’t matter if Purgatory isn’t revealed directly in scripture, because the believe is in harmony with
Christs’ sacrifice for our sins and in the essence of Heaven, which is revealed in scripture. Dude, you have to do your research on the subject, or find another thing to debate about. I’ll keep going with this though, even though we’re gonna find ourselve repeating the same thing over and over and over again, therefore going no where.
P
Pryority7
Guest
By the way Bene, I read 2 Maccabees 12, and I’m amazed by how you did not read the whole thing…The verses after the ones you posted stated…
42.The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened bacause of the sin of those who had fallen. 43.He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the ressurrection of the dead if view;44.for if her were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy a pious thought. Thus they made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
When Judas did this “atonement”, he had those who died in a state of godliness, not those who died guilty of the sin of idolatry, in mind, because even he was smart enough to not assume that every single dead person there was guilty of this sin. Therefore, the idea of purgatory being only for the saved is preserved. By the way, don’t freak out on the word “atonement” in this reading…I know, I know…“Only Christ’s death atones for our sins!!!” I know…I agree. Don’t get caught up in the word play here, okay? Obviously the word “atonement” does not take up the same degree as does the sacrifice of the Lord. Can you please try to understand that? Any scholar who is well versed in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic will vouch for this.
42.The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened bacause of the sin of those who had fallen. 43.He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the ressurrection of the dead if view;44.for if her were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy a pious thought. Thus they made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
When Judas did this “atonement”, he had those who died in a state of godliness, not those who died guilty of the sin of idolatry, in mind, because even he was smart enough to not assume that every single dead person there was guilty of this sin. Therefore, the idea of purgatory being only for the saved is preserved. By the way, don’t freak out on the word “atonement” in this reading…I know, I know…“Only Christ’s death atones for our sins!!!” I know…I agree. Don’t get caught up in the word play here, okay? Obviously the word “atonement” does not take up the same degree as does the sacrifice of the Lord. Can you please try to understand that? Any scholar who is well versed in Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic will vouch for this.
B
bene7
Guest
What? The truth about a future, bodily resurrection IS 100 percent revealed in the O.T. (Dan. 12:2).
Can you show me where He ever taught praying for the dead?
Like I said, people believe a lot of things. But* true* Christianity is not based on what people believe, but rather on what God has revealed. What He’s revealed is what we’re to believe. This is what makes true Christianity superior to all religions on earth. It’s wholly based on Divine revelation, not the imagination and varied beliefs of mere men. No one here has yet shown me where (or, to whom) the doctrine of “Purgatory” is/was divinely revealed. Church Militant has provided verses in which he reads that doctrine INTO the text, but none of them actually reveal (teach) that doctrine.
NO! Are you a Jew, born under the Law (Gal. 4:4-5)? All of the teachings found in the Epistles are addressed to believers now under GRACE, based on the eternal effects of the historical, substitutionary, sin-sacrifice of the Son of God. That’ s why “Purgatory” is not and cannot be a Biblical doctrine, it’s extra-Biblical. There’s no room for it in divine revelation. If you’re going to teach an extra-Biblical doctrine then the burden is upon YOU to prove its divine origin. Even the O.T. prophets had to prove themselves by being 100 percent accurate. And Peter said that just as false prophets rose up among the people in those days, so false teachers will rise up among us as well, introducing destructive heresies (2 Pet. 2:1).
Blessings,
Bene
S
Sean_Boyle
Guest
Bene7,
Your argument is really about authority.
Where is it writen in the bible to read the New Testament or where did Christ tell anyone in the bible that it must be written? Where is it written in the Bible that the Bible is the sole instrument of teachings on faith? It’s simply not there. By your own admission, if it’s not in the bible, it’s not of God.
Your personal interpetation of the bible is not and can ever be the way that God intended it to be read. No where in the bible does it say listen to what Bene7 says to do for salvation. So it can’t be true.
The Bible comes to us from The Church, Christ’s Church. The same Church declares the Bible as inspired by God and without error.
The Bible that comes to us through the Church also gives us the teaching on Purgatory. Why assume one is of God and not the other. They are both revealed to us through Christ’s present here on earth, the Catholic Church.
Respectfully,
Sean
Your argument is really about authority.
Where is it writen in the bible to read the New Testament or where did Christ tell anyone in the bible that it must be written? Where is it written in the Bible that the Bible is the sole instrument of teachings on faith? It’s simply not there. By your own admission, if it’s not in the bible, it’s not of God.
Your personal interpetation of the bible is not and can ever be the way that God intended it to be read. No where in the bible does it say listen to what Bene7 says to do for salvation. So it can’t be true.
The Bible comes to us from The Church, Christ’s Church. The same Church declares the Bible as inspired by God and without error.
The Bible that comes to us through the Church also gives us the teaching on Purgatory. Why assume one is of God and not the other. They are both revealed to us through Christ’s present here on earth, the Catholic Church.
Respectfully,
Sean
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