Purgatory and 1 Corinthians 15:52

[hurst]

sandusky:

Originally Posted by Hurst
It is, indirectly, by admitting the possibility of a purification in the other world.

Think about what you are saying here, Hurst, ie, if one admits the possibility…then indirect support can be found.

I don’t think you understood what I meant. What Jesus said admits of the possibility of sins being forgiven in the next life by specifying a kind that isn’t.

Matthew 12:32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

sandusky:

That is eisegetical reasoning.

I had to look that term up.

Exegetical inquiry means that we attempt to “read out of” scripture the original meaning intended, while eisegetical inquiry means “reading into” scripture a meaning which may not have been intended by the author.

From WordNet 2.0 :
Eisegesis : (noun)
1: personal interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible) using your own ideas

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one’s own ideas

I don’t think an interpretation is inserted here. That He says “nor in the world to come” gives rise to the consideration that in the world to come, there may in fact be other sins that will be forgiven. Otherwise, He would not need to have ever mentioned it, if sins can only be forgiven in this world. Maccabb

sandusky:

I strongly disagree with you. That verse says nothing about purgatory, nor does it say anything about forgiveness after death, and is refuted by Hebrews 9:27.

I agree that it says nothing explicitly about purgatory. But yes, it does say something about forgiveness after death.

As for the verse you quoted:

Hebrews 9:26 For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world: but now once at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin, by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment: 28 So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; the second time he shall appear without sin to them that expect him unto salvation.

I do not see how receiving the judgment after death refutes purgatory. In fact, the judgment after death is not the only judgment. There is another judgment on the Last Day, pertaining to the resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed.

Matthew 10:15 Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Luke 11:31 The queen of the south shall rise in the judgment with the men of this generation, and shall condemn them: because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold more than Solomon here.

Romans 14:10 But thou, why judgest thou thy brother? or thou, why dost thou despise thy brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Jude 1:6 And the angels who kept not their principality, but forsook their own habitation, he hath reserved under darkness in everlasting chains, unto the judgment of the great day.

One thing to remark here is that the devils, who have already been judged, are yet being held unto the Day of Judgment.

Likewise, the saints are not yet resurrected in general, for the Day of Resurrection is not yet here for all.

So the judgment rendered at death, while determining one’s final destiny (Heaven or Hell), nevertheless leaves one in an intermediate state until the Day of Judgment / Resurrection.

The notion of Purgatory is not contrary to this.

hurst

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

What Matthew is using is a figure of speech known as tapeinosis (or demeaning) when used positively, and antenantiosis when used negatively, as it is in Mt 12:32.

When Matthew says, *it shall not be forgiven him…*he is saying: he shall have the gravest punishment in this age and in the age to come.

This does not say one has punishment as such, but that one never receives forgiveness. Punishment inflicted is not equivalent to missing forgiveness.

sandusky:

That is supported by looking at the parallel recording of the same incident by Mark in his Gospel, 3:29:

Mark 3:29
29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—

This should not be used to remove the additional point noted in Matthew, though.

Other scriptures support it, too.

2 Machabees 12:46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

1 Corinthians 15:29 Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?

But even more interesting is the fact that Jesus raised people from the dead, as did the Apostles after Jesus’ death and resurrection. This should be the most obvious indication that sins are forgiven even after one dies.

John 12:9 A great multitude therefore of the Jews knew that he was there; and they came, not for Jesus’ sake only, but that they might see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead.

Acts 9:40 And they all being put forth, Peter kneeling down prayed, and turning to the body, he said: Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes; and seeing Peter, she sat up.

There are a number of implications here… To maintain your position that sins are not forgiven after one dies, you will have to claim that these dead either did not have any sins to be forgiven, or that they were brought back in the same sinful state as when they died.

But Jesus typically brought forgiveness to people when He healed them, so to say He did not do so before raising them back to life would go against that standard.

Furthermore, your position does not even allow for the prison referred to in the book of Peter, much less for Purgatory.

1 Peter 3:18 Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building …

These spirits He preached to were those who “missed the boat” during the great flood, for their disbelief.

hurst

 

[sandusky]

Sandusky:

If God says that those who are in Christ,

1. Gain when they die
2. Are at peace with Him (in this life, and the one to come)
3. Are never again subject to His condemnation
4. And their sins are not counted against them

Why do you persist in a doctrine that calls for punishment of a believer even when you can produce no convincing evidence of such doctrine, and when scripture speaks so strongly against such a doctrine?

Hurst:

Because who of us is perfectly in Christ? If we are, then indeed, there is no purgatory for us, for we will go straight to heaven. To be such, we must place all our desire in God through Christ, and be living saints. In fact, we are called to this, and are able to do it by the grace of God and the desire of our wills.

But as 1 Corinthians shows, some believers are not fully in Christ, and so the imperfect must endure chastisements for correction.

Everyone who has professed faith in Christ, though they are not perfect, and will never be perfect in this life, are “perfectly” in Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

As a result of one’s justification, one is viewed by God as “perfect” as well.

Hurst:

We must be zealous, then. And if we aren’t, we cannot claim to be fully in Christ, much less remain long in Him:

One who is truly in Christ, will remain in Him forever.

That is because one is in Christ, by the determination and calling of the Father (Rom 1:1, 6, Jn 1:12-13; Eph 1:4ff; 1 Pet 1:3, 23)

Because one sins, as all do, does not make one any “less” in Christ, nor does it make Christ any “less” in him.

I have said before on this forum that there are only two religions in the world:

1. The religion of Divine Accomplishment: God has done it all. That is the biblical position
2. The religion of Human Achievement: God has done some, and I must do some. That is not the biblical position.

Hurst:

So if we are chastised and must suffer in this life to prove ourselves worthy…

IMHO, that puts you in category #2, as does the rest of your post with regard to suffering, confession, and all of the things that you must do.

While I am not discounting living a life worthy of the calling by which we were called, and demonstrating our love for God through obedience to His commandments, none of that finally deals with what one must do to be saved, which is to put one’s faith in the Cross of Christ for the remission/forgiveness of sins, and the reconciliation and peace with God. Acts 4:12 makes it clear that is in Christ’s name, and all that His name entails, that one must be saved. That is an imperative; it is commanded to be saved in Christ’s name. If you are “doing things” to be saved, you are doing them in your name, and not in Christ’s name, and there is no other name.

Hurst:

Thus confession is needed; or if we die being perfectly sorry, some form of temporary suffering in purgatory is needed to satisfy God’s justice and atone for the sins.

Isaiah 53:10-11
10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

God’s righteousness was displayed, and His justice appeased by the death of His Son.

 

[bene7]

Pillar of Cloud:

Even then, the distinction you are making between “flow” and “procured” is illusionary, just like the Gnostics you brought up. Sins are forgiven BY the Cross, is that better?

No. The believer’s sins are forgiven by God, once for all, BECAUSE of the cross of Christ. Just as John said to the Gnostics who said they had no sin that if they acknowledge their sins and turn to Christ by faith, He (God) is faithful and righteous to forgive them of their sins and cleanse them from ALL unrighteousness. Which is true for all who have trusted in the Person and work of Jesus Christ to this day.

As for the true believer, John says that if he does sin, he has an Advocate (parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:2). The Greek word here is not parakalein, which is used of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer as a Comforter, but one “called alongside” summoned to assist him. It’s a legal title used in the courts for a lawyer who pleads the cause of a person on trial. John is saying that when a true believer sins, i.e., one who belongs to God, purchased (redeemed) with Christ’s blood, Christ Himself pleads his case in Heaven against his accuser (Satan, see Rev. 11:10), and with the Father who has forgiven him of his sins for "His (Christ’s) name sake" (1 John 1:12).

The relationship the believer has with God the Father is not as Judge, but His beloved child. He (the believer) HAS eternal life and does not come into judgment, but (being in Christ) has passed out of death into life (John 5:24).

Not that I disagree with “procured” anyway, since that still means that the Cross gives access to the forgiveness of sins the Old Testament sacrifices couldn’t.

No, it doesn’t mean you have “access” to forgiveness of sins. It means that because of Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice, the believer, at the time of personal belief, receives the forgiveness of sins which Christ accomplished through the cross:

Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins" (Acts 10:43).

When one “believes” he "receives. Forgiveness of sins doesn’t “flow” from the cross, they’re “proclaimed” forgiven BECAUSE of the cross:

“Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you” (Acts 13:38).

The Catholic church has apostatized from this divinely revealed truth. Clearly demonstrated by what “Hust” posted on this thread:

“The finished work of Christ should not be taken to mean that our work is finished. He amassed a huge store of merit and grace for our salvation, and we must “go to Joseph” and ask for this “grain” kept to offset the famine of sin that souls suffer on earth.”

We must profit by Christ’s atonement in order to be saved in the end. We indeed taste salvation, but that is not the fullness thereof. We must persevere to actually obtain it.

This is what you mean by “forgiveness flows from the cross.” A notion totally contrary to what God has revealed in His written Word regarding sin and the sacrifice of His own Son on man’s behalf. The idea that Jesus through His substitutionary sacrifice “amassed a huge store of merit and grace FOR our salvation,” and that men must, themselves, go to that “storehouse” where these “merits” are kept, is completely foreign to Biblical revelation. Nor is it revealed that this was a part of either Paul’s or Peter’s gospel. After the cross of Christ the Apostles were sent out into the world to PROCLAIM forgiveness of sins to all who would believe in Christ. Not to be conduits to some storehouse of cross acquired merits. Where do you find such a concept in their writings?

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

]
But, Forgiveness is still dispersed differently than Redemption, which was given to all men whether or not they know Jesus.

As shown in the previous post forgiveness of sins is not “dispersed,” it is “proclaimed” to all who believe, based on Christ’s substitutionary death. And when a sinner believes in Christ he is fully redeemed (purchased) by His blood. There are three words used in Scripture for redemption:

agorazo… To purchase in the market (Rev. 5:9; 14:3-4)
exagorazo… To purchase and to REMOVE or TAKE OUT of the market, never to return (Gal. 3:13; 4:5)
lutroo… Loosed and set free (Titus 2:14; 1Pet. 1:18)

Peter, writing to believers, states emphatically that they were redeemed (purchased, loosed and set free) with the precious blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19). At the time of personal belief the believer is fully and completely redeemed (purchased) by Christ’s blood through His finished work on the cross. The purchase price having been paid “in full.” To deny this is to deny the cross. Paul writes to the Corinthian believers:

“For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body” (1 Cor. 6:20).

“You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men” (1 Cor. 6:23).

There is no place in “Purgatory” for those who have been purchased with the price of Christ’s shed blood, and through the cross forgiven of all sins. That’s why neither the doctrine or the place are found Scripture.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[sandusky]

Hurst:

Now, if Christ were to be punished in our place, then He would presumably have to endure Hell for eternity, and forever “be sin” for us while we enjoy being righteous for Him in heaven.

So what you are saying is that the few hours that Christ hung on the cross are not sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world. The importance of the sacrifice of Christ is not measured by the duration of the time He suffered, but by the quality of His suffering, even the quality of Him who suffered. So, the fact that those who do not fully place their faith in Christ for the forgiveness and payment of their sins, will suffer for eternity, shows nothing at all, if it does not show the infinite value of Christ’s sufferings, and the lack of value of the unbeliever’s sufferings.

Hurst:

But there is no reward for enduring punishment of sins

I do not think that is true, as you have shown below:

1 Peter 2:19 For this is thankworthy, if for conscience towards God, a man endure sorrows, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if committing sin, and being buffeted for it, you endure? But if doing well you suffer patiently; this is thankworthy before God.

But in fact, Christ was rewarded.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour: that, through the grace of God, he might taste death for all.

We see here in “plain language” that Christ was rewarded for having suffered. That is not a penal substitution.

Indeed Christ was rewarded for enduring the punishment of sins.

Let me offer a clearer translation of 1 Pet 2:19-20:

1 Peter 2:19-20
19 For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.
20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

We do see here, in plain language, that Jesus did both of those: He suffered unjustly, and He endured the suffering patiently, all while doing no wrong, for which, He was rewarded, as you say.

Hurst:

Secondly, it was through grace. So the fact that He tasted death was not for punishment, but for overcoming so that we who follow and live in Him will also overcome with Him.

Yes, Jesus overcame the world, and through faith in Him, the believer also overcomes the world, but He did more than that: He paid the penalty for the sins of those who believe, as you have shown in your use of Rom 5:21, and 1 Jn 4:9:

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned to death; so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 John 4:9 By this hath the charity of God appeared towards us, because God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we may live by him. 10 In this is charity: not as though we had loved God, but because he hath first loved us, and sent his Son to be a propitiation for our sins.

It is, as Rom 5:21 says, “…grace reigning by justice.” God demonstrated His righteousness, and His justice by punishing sin on the Cross of Christ (Rom 3:25ff; 2 Cor 5:19-21). And, as John says, Christ is the propitiation (the appeasing of God’s wrath; the satisfaction of God’s judgment) for the believer’s sins (plural)—all of them, past, present, future.

Hurst:

But it was a substitutionary atonement, since Christ had no sins of His own to atone for. So He gave of Himself for us.

Yes, and as He had no sin to atone for, so too, He had no sin of His own to pay a penalty for, so it was for the sins of those who would believe that He paid the penalty.

1 Peter 2:24
*24 and He Himself bore *[the penalty for] our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

Jesus did not die as a martyr; He died as a Saviour, a sinless Substitute. The word translated “bare” means “to carry as a sacrifice.” The Jewish people did not crucify criminals; they stoned them to death. But if the victim was especially evil, his dead body was hung on a tree until evening, as a mark of shame (Deut. 21:23). Jesus died on a tree—a cross—and bore the curse of the Law (Gal. 3:13).

His atonement dealt with the guilt, debt, ruin, and bondage of sin—once for all.

 

[bene7]

Pryority7:

Okay, I’ve been doing more study on 1 Corinthians 15, and I discovered some interesting things:
First, in verse 14, the one whose work stands will recieve a reward…then it talks about the one whose work is burned up and how that one will suffer loss. Not so much that that one will not be rewarded, but that that person will suffer loss.

No, it simply means suffer loss of reward. You’re trying to read into it more than is actually stated. And again, Pry., there’s no mention of sins in the context. The extra-Biblical, Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is about cleansing one of sins, not giving of rewards or the loss of rewards. The fire in this context is revealing, not purging. As for the word “suffer,” the context gives it its meaning. You can’t just look up a word in a lexicon and say this is how it is ALWAYS used. Context always contributes and even determines the meaning of a word.

Check out what Paul says right after that: “Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone destorys God’s temple, God will destroy that person…(verse16 and 17)” So there is the pattern "Heaven-reward-suffering-purgatory- and destruction-Hell…

There’s nothing said of “Purgatory” in that passage. In verse 15 Paul assures the Corinthian believer that at the time his works (labors) are* reviewed*, his salvation is not in jeopardy. It’s an appraisal of his works, not a jugdment of his soul. In fact, he is to fully understand that he is a temple of God (being indwelt by the Holy Spirit). And the reason the Holy Spirit can indwell him is because he has been made a clean vessel by the blood of Christ. I brought this up in a previous post, comparing the believer in Christ today with the Temple of God in the O.T., which also had to be cleansed by blood. The fact that Paul calls a believer a “temple of God” proves he has been cleansed of all sins and all unrighteousness through the blood of Christ. Otherwise the Holy Spirit could not indwell him.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

Everyone who has professed faith in Christ, though they are not perfect, and will never be perfect in this life, are “perfectly” in Christ.

In order for that to be true, you would have to define “in Christ” very broadly. But then you are doing the eisegesis that you mentioned earlier. Or what then does it mean to “be in Christ”?

sandusky:

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Yes, so at the moment of baptism, one is perfectly in Christ. But due to our free will, if we give our will to something else even partially, then we are no longer perfectly in Christ. And if we sin gravely, then we are cut off.

Romans 11:22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

Your position is not even scriptural.

To be in Christ is not some general classification of those who end up being saved. It is an experiental and actual reality.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me.

It will be proven by our fruit.

Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good: or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil. For by the fruit the tree is known.

sandusky:

As a result of one’s justification, one is viewed by God as “perfect” as well.

Not true, either, unless you define “justification” to mean that God sees you as “perfect”. But such tautologies are useless for this discussion.

The fact is, we have to be reconciled to God before we can live in Him and Him in us. But even after being reconciled through the Blood of Jesus, we are able to forget about it, fall away from the faith, and otherwise lose our grip on salvation.

2 Peter 1:9 For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Luke 8:13 Now they upon the rock, are they who when they hear, receive the word with joy: and these have no roots; for they believe for a while, and in time of temptation, they fall away.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also you are saved, if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as the Son in his own house: which house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and glory of hope unto the end.

Apocalypse 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

So without need to use the term “justification” or “perfectly in Christ” or anything else, we see that whatever is gained by a believer must be held to the end in order to count.

sandusky:

One who is truly in Christ, will remain in Him forever.

Unscriptural. If that were so, then Christ would not need to exhort us to remain in Him. It is partially up to us. He calls and appoints us, but we must respond.

John 15:16 You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you, that you should go, and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me.

Luke 13:9 And if happily it bear fruit: but if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

hurst

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

That is because one is in Christ, by the determination and calling of the Father (Rom 1:1, 6, Jn 1:12-13; Eph 1:4ff; 1 Pet 1:3, 23)

Unscriptural. If that were so, then those not saved were left to be in Hell apart from their own will. But God wills that all be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

As for your citations:
1. Romans 1:1

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

Though he was called, he did not consider himself guaranteed salvation:

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

1 Corinthians 4:4 For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord.

And that, in spite of the fact that he was “in Christ”

Galatians 2:20 And I live, now not I; but Christ liveth in me. And that I live now in the flesh: I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered himself for me.

The reason is because we live by faith and with hope. For if we actually and truly possessed salvation, then we would not be holding it by faith. It is rather like seeing the sun though we do not possess it. We feel the warmth and see by its light, but it is not ours. But in heaven, we will possess God, like possessing the sun.

2. Romans 1:6

Romans 1:6 Among whom are you also the called of Jesus Christ

Being called does not mean being perfectly in Christ, or saved. Otherwise, why the exhortation to persever. Why the statement that not all called are chosen?

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith: lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art called, and hast confessed a good confession before many witnesses. … 20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust

3. John 1:12-13

John 1:12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So, they have the “power to be made the sons” since they believe. Born of God. Born again in the spirit.

But they can’t already have the goal of their faith, or else it wouldn’t be faith anymore, but actual possession. For there is no faith or hope in heaven, since all know and possess God. But charity is in heaven as well as on earth.

The new life we are born into by water and the spirit is our baptism and confirmation. But these do not work without our cooperation, because as already shown, we must “lay hold” and persevere.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also you are saved, if you hold fast after what manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as the Son in his own house: which house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and glory of hope unto the end.

Apocalypse 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

(continued)

 

[hurst]

4. Eph 1:4ff

Ephesians 1:4 As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. 5 Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will: … 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace, 8 Which hath superabounded in us in all wisdom and prudence …

This is a wonderful passage.

Indeed, we have Redemption in Him through his blood. God has provided redemption for all, and predestined all who believe to be saved and adopted into His life.

But again, you cannot scripturally interpret “have” to mean sandusky or hurst “possesses” it. Rather, we “have access” to it, and we take hold of it by faith. We must be tried, whether our faith be sincere, and then we must persevere unto the end in order to be saved.

Judith 8:21 … be mindful how our fathers were tempted that they might be proved, whether they worshipped their God truly.

Matthew 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

5. 1 Pet 1:3

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Notice it says “unto a lively hope”. Hope means you don’t possess it yet. Do you hope to get something you already have?

In fact, it shows that we have received the grace of the promise of more to come. We have this enlightenment by our faith. But we still must hold onto this hope, or else lose what it promises.

6. 1 Pet 1:23

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible, by the word of God who liveth and remaineth for ever.

Born of incorruptible seed indeed, but what value if we discard it?

Notice the previous verses:

1 Peter 1:21 Who through him are faithful in God, who raised him up from the dead, and hath given him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Purifying your souls in the obedience of charity, with a brotherly love, from a sincere heart love one another earnestly

A few points here:

1. our faith and hope is in God
2. we have charity by the practice of obedience in that faith and hope
3. we purify our souls by this charity in a sincere heart.

This is supported by these passages:

Proverbs 15:27 … By mercy and faith sins are purged away: and by the fear of the Lord every one declineth from evil.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high.

Luke 5:20 Whose faith when he saw, he said: Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Mark 6:5 And he could not do any miracles there, only that he cured a few that were sick, laying his hands upon them. 6 And he wondered because of their unbelief, and he went through the villages round about teaching.

The purging of sins is through faith, in charity. Though Christ obtained our redemption, we are not forgiven unless we obtain it by faith. This same faith is needed to live a just life, for the just man walks by faith.

Habacuc 2:4 Behold, he that is unbelieving, his soul shall not be right in himself: but the just shall live in his faith.

Hebrews 10:38 But my just man liveth by faith; but if he withdraw himself, he shall not please my soul.

As you see, there is copious amounts of scripture that show we must persevere by faith in the hope we have, and we do so by obedience, by which we have charity. And our souls are purified by this charity. It doesn’t happen only by faith, though faith is the necessary starting point.

hurst

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

Because one sins, as all do, does not make one any “less” in Christ, nor does it make Christ any “less” in him.

But that is not true, nor scriptural.

John 15:6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and case him into the fire, and be burneth.

1 John 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask.

sandusky:

I have said before on this forum that there are only two religions in the world:

1. The religion of Divine Accomplishment: God has done it all. That is the biblical position

As I have shown, that is not the biblical position. Otherwise, we wouldn’t need to do anything. But we do have to do something.

Matthew 3:2 And saying: Do penance: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you:

Matthew 6:20 But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

1 John 2:3 And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He who saith that he knoweth him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But he that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected; and by this we know that we are in him.

John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting.

John 14:12 … Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do.

etc.

In fact, though we are saved by faith, our salvation consists in charity. For the commandment of charity is eternal life.

1 Cor 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

sandusky:

1. The religion of Human Achievement: God has done some, and I must do some. That is not the biblical position.

A religion of human achievement would be that man does it all.

The above is a religion of cooperation between God and man. And that is precisely the Biblical position:

Zacharias 1:3 … Thus saith the Lord of hosts: Turn ye to me, saith the Lord of hosts: and I will turn to you, saith the Lord of hosts.

Acts 28:27 … lest perhaps they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Jeremias 3:22 Return, you rebellious children, and I will heal your rebellions. Behold we come to thee: for thou art the Lord our God.

Luke 6:46 And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say?

Matt 22:3 And he sent his servants, to call them that were invited to the marriage; and they would not come. … they neglected, and went their own ways … 8 Then he saith to his servants: … 9 Go ye therefore into the highways; and as many as you shall find, call to the marriage.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 25:26 And his lord answering, said to him: Wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sow not, and gather where I have not strewed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have committed my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received my own with usury. 28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it to him that hath ten talents. 29 For to every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, that also which he seemeth to have shall be taken away. 30 And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

These and countless other show that the biblical position is that we must cooperate with God.

sandusky:

IMHO, that puts you in category #2, as does the rest of your post with regard to suffering, confession, and all of the things that you must do.

As I have shown, it is best called category #3 “Cooperation with God”. And yes, it is something we must do, though we can’t do it apart from God. We must do charity.

hurst

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

While I am not discounting living a life worthy of the calling by which we were called, and demonstrating our love for God through obedience to His commandments, none of that finally deals with what one must do to be saved, which is to put one’s faith in the Cross of Christ for the remission/forgiveness of sins, and the reconciliation and peace with God.

So close, yet so far away you are. Being reconciled is only the beginning. We must then live by that faith obediently to have charity, by which those who are born of God are known!

1 John 4:7 Dearly beloved, let us love one another, for charity is of God. And every one that loveth, is born of God, and knoweth God.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore admonish you, though ye once knew all things, that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, did afterwards destroy them that believed not …

If we once believe, we can later stop believing. God does not coerce us. And part of that is because to continue believing, we must grow in charity, and that can be hard. For to be forgiven, we must forgive others, etc.

sandusky:

Acts 4:12 makes it clear that is in Christ’s name, and all that His name entails, that one must be saved. That is an imperative; it is commanded to be saved in Christ’s name. If you are “doing things” to be saved, you are doing them in your name, and not in Christ’s name, and there is no other name.

Wait a minute here. We are called to do all things in Christ’s name, but it is us doing them in His name. It is our decision to do that. Thus there is a cooperation.

Colossians 3:17 All whatsoever you do in word or in work, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

So “doing things” in the name of Our Lord is not just tacking on the phrase “in Jesus’ Name” to the end of our prayers. We must be living in Him, and doing things for His glory.

This reminds me of the call of Israelites to bear children in their brother’s name.

Deuteronomy 25:5 When brethren dwell together, and one of them dieth without children, the wife of the deceased shall not marry to another: but his brother shall take her, and raise up seed for his brother: 6 And the first son he shall have of her he shall call by his name, that his name be not abolished out of Israel. 7 But if he will not take his brother’s wife, who by law belongeth to him, the woman shall go to the gate of the city, and call upon the ancients, and say: My husband’s brother refuseth to raise up his brother’s name in Israel: and will not take me to wife.

When we do things in Jesus’ Name, we should be doing it in charity to His glory, obeying in faith the fact that He gave His all to us, and is worthy of our worship, which includes offering our bodies as a sacrifice.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service.

So, we indeed must “do things”, in Jesus’ Name, to be saved. But we must do them too, in cooperation with the grace of God.

It is even explicitly scriptural:

John 5:29 And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

hurst

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

Isaiah 53:10-11
10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand.
11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

Right, a “guilt offering”. The anguish is not from a penalty for being sinful, for otherwise what credit is in that? But for having been innocent, God’s justice will reward Him. And this reward Jesus passes on to us that we may have life! But what folly to take this renewed life and use it to sin against Him! But we are able to do that! So, our freedom is greater, and if we fall away now, then our punishment is much greater than if we had never known that new freedom.

2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them.

sandusky:

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

Sure, the redemption for all mankind is in Christ Jesus. And for those who believe, regardless who, these things are obtained.

Yet, one may later decide to no longer believe. Thus they disconnect themselves, shutting their eyes to the light of faith, and losing their way.

Matthew 12:45 Then he goeth, and taketh with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is made worse than the first. So shall it be also to this wicked generation.

(continued)

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

Romans 3:21-26
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Right. And the justice is in Christ, but has been given to us. The Redemptions is a combination of ransoming us from slavery to sin and the devil, and atoning for our sins in order to reconcile us to God. And the grace earned by the merit of Christ’s justice is granted to us who believe, so that we may live in Him and do the works God planned for us to do. We must, like Christ, live a life of charity in obedience to faith.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love …

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and might cleanse to himself a people acceptable, a pursuer of good works.

etc.

sandusky:

God’s righteousness was displayed, and His justice appeased by the death of His Son.

You seem to think this was the only way God’s justice could be appeased? But it would also be appeased by sending us to Hell.

The redemption was to atone for the insult to God of our sins. We were being restored before the justice of punishment was handed out.

Ephesians 1:10 In the dispensation of the fulness of times, to re-establish all things in Christ, that are in heaven and on earth, in him.

For example, Christ restored the sick to health. But He did not do this by suffering the sickness for them!

Matthew 12:13 Then he saith to the man: Stretch forth thy hand; and he stretched it forth, and it was restored to health even as the other.

It was by the superabundance of His grace, not by some penal substitution, that we were freed.

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace, 8 Which hath superabounded in us in all wisdom and prudence

In other words, it exceeded any penalty of sins.

So now, being delivered from darkness and the devil, delivered from the servitude of sin (attachment to creature rather than God), reconciled to God, restored to His grace, and given the gift of the Holy Spirit, we can live the life God meant us to live, doing good works of charity by the grace of God in the light of faith, by which the just man lives. Because God is just to Christ, and because Christ offered Himself for us, we now have the justice of Christ given to us in His body and blood. That is also why He could say we needed it to have life.

John 6:54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

hurst

 

[biblesound]

forthright:

How do we reconcile the teaching that purgatory is a process by which we are perfectly purified and made ready to enter heaven with 1 Corinthians 15:50 and following that seems to indicate we are made perfect instantly and not through a process?

I don’t believe you have a second chance after you die, after death comes judgment.

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

So what you are saying is that the few hours that Christ hung on the cross are not sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world.

What I am saying is that if He had literally “become sin”, then He would have to suffer forever. For the Protestant perspective is that Jesus suffered like a criminal even to His Father (“Why have you forsaken me?” Matthew 27:46). But in fact, Jesus always pleases His Father (John 8:29).

So it is not that He became sinful and was abandoned by His Father in order to pay our penalty. But He bore our sin because He had become one of us, and His charity towards us was so great, and His reverence for His Father was so great, and He naturally reconciled us. He was in nature both God and man.

This also explains why Protestants are embarrassed to place the corpus of Christ on the Cross. They think it was shameful and that putting it on the cross is to recall a shameful penalty and deride Christ.

But in fact, He lovingly offered Himself, the spotless lamb, and the charity of His act is something we should all strive toimitate, and not shirk. For Protestants shirk it, and do not wish to imitate Christ, but only profit by His suffering - a suffering they think they are made exempt from.

sandusky:

The importance of the sacrifice of Christ is not measured by the duration of the time He suffered, but by the quality of His suffering, even the quality of Him who suffered.

Ok.

sandusky:

So, the fact that those who do not fully place their faith in Christ for the forgiveness and payment of their sins, will suffer for eternity, shows nothing at all, if it does not show the infinite value of Christ’s sufferings, and the lack of value of the unbeliever’s sufferings.

It may seem virtuous to discount your need to suffer by saying only Christ’s sufferings count. And in fact, only Christ’s sufferings did count as far as obtaining the Redemption to be offered to us.

But our sufferings count in order to receive that Redemption.

He was pierced that we might have His blood to live, but we must also be pierced in order to receive the transfusion.

Your perspective is not scriptural.

sandusky:

Originally Posted by Hurst
But there is no reward for enduring punishment of sins

I do not think that is true, as you have shown below:

I meant if you believed He literally became sin.

sandusky:

Indeed Christ was rewarded for enduring the punishment of sins.

Let me offer a clearer translation of 1 Pet 2:19-20:

1 Peter 2:19-20
19 For this finds favor, if for the sake of conscience toward God a person bears up under sorrows when suffering unjustly.
20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

We do see here, in plain language, that Jesus did both of those: He suffered unjustly, and He endured the suffering patiently, all while doing no wrong, for which, He was rewarded, as you say.

Agreed.

sandusky:

Originally Posted by Hurst
Secondly, it was through grace. So the fact that He tasted death was not for punishment, but for overcoming so that we who follow and live in Him will also overcome with Him.

Yes, Jesus overcame the world, and through faith in Him, the believer also overcomes the world,

Agreed.

sandusky:

but He did more than that: He paid the penalty for the sins of those who believe, as you have shown in your use of Rom 5:21, and 1 Jn 4:9:

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned to death; so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 John 4:9 By this hath the charity of God appeared towards us, because God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we may live by him. 10 In this is charity: not as though we had loved God, but because he hath first loved us, and sent his Son to be a propitiation for our sins.

It is, as Rom 5:21 says, “…grace reigning by justice.” God demonstrated His righteousness, and His justice by punishing sin on the Cross of Christ (Rom 3:25ff; 2 Cor 5:19-21).

No, that is not the justice He showed. Justice in punishing sin is eternal Hell. Christ did not pay that. The justice of God that is shown is God’s justice to Christ!

For since Christ, as Eternal High Priest (not criminal), offered Himself for us, then when God honored His sacrifice (and God did not have to), God was appeased by the sweet savour (not paid penalty) and granted us reconciliation and grace in Jesus’ Name (for the grace belongs to Christ), as well as delivering us from the captivity of our sins and of the power of the devil.

(continued)

 

[hurst]

As for your citations:
1. Rom 3:25ff

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins,

He shows His justice by rewarding Christ for His merit, and since Christ offered Himself for us, we get credited. This is by grace and not by penal satisfaction, as can be abundantly shown throughout the Bible.

As you can see in the following verse, the remission of sins is “through the forbearance of God”, and why? “for the shewing of his justice”. That is, justice towards Christ.

Romans 3:26 Through the forbearance of God, for the shewing of his justice in this time; that he himself may be just, and the justifier of him, who is of the faith of Jesus Christ.

And do you believe Jesus was “penalized” also for those who do not believe? Do you not see that the belief in penal substitution leads to either Calvinistic predestination or Baptist OSAS? For it is repugnant to think He paid a penalty that didn’t work. Calvinists conclude that He only paid it for those who God determines to save. Baptists apparently conclude something similar except that once someone freely believes, and it is applied, that they can’t possibly lose something that God did for them. These and other diverging conclusions are the result of the erroneous belief in penal substitution.

The fact is, Jesus bore all sins of humanity, even of those who will end up in hell. But He did not bear the penalty of hell for every person. Those who are not saved will be bearing that penalty. And those who are saved do not bear any penalty of hell. He bore the weight of our sins, and by His graceful merit, overcame sin and death, and reconciled us to God before the eternal penalty was incurred. His redemption exceeded all sins. But the redemption is a counterbalance, a ransom, an offsetting of evil by something good. And we are restored, strengthened, fed, and enlightened as a result of it. But we must now live as He did, obeying Our Father, having the same love for others as He did, if we are to complete the salvation we are called to. For in our freedom we may fall again if we so choose, though it is harder to fall with the light and grace we are given. Still, if Adam and Eve fell, and if angels fell, then it follows that not all in grace will necessarily stay in grace.

2. 2 Cor 5:19-21

2 Cor 5:19 For God indeed was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing to them their sins; … 21 Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us, that we might be made the justice of God in him.

This does not mean justice of penalty. In another place, the same point is made in slightly different wording:

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh; God sending his own Son, in the likeness of sinful flesh and of sin, hath condemned sin in the flesh; 4 That the justification of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.

So, you see Christ fulfilled the law, and by faith we can share in His fulfillment, by being baptised and receiving the life of the Spirit in Christ. And we thus become children of Abraham, receiving the promise for those who live by faith. Etc.

sandusky:

And, as John says, Christ is the propitiation (the appeasing of God’s wrath; the satisfaction of God’s judgment) for the believer’s sins (plural)—all of them, past, present, future.

What Christ did was a sacrifice, not a scapegoating.

He appeased the Father by the sweet aroma of His sacrifice, not by having paid the penalty that we could not afford. Indeed, we could not afford to redeem ourselves, though we sold ourselves. But since people do go to hell, apparently they can afford to pay the eternal penalty…

sandusky:

Yes, and as He had no sin to atone for, so too, He had no sin of His own to pay a penalty for, so it was for the sins of those who would believe that He paid the penalty.

As a priest in the order of Melchisidek, He offered Himself as a sin offering, not as scapegoat. He paid no penalty as such. He atoned for the offense by counterbalancing it with something more valuable and just than the injustice of our sins. He exceeded it.

Not only that, but He did so for all, not just for believers.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

2 Cor 5:14 For the charity of Christ presseth us: judging this, that if one died for all, then all were dead. 15 And Christ died for all; that they also who live, may not now live to themselves, but unto him who died for them, and rose again.

1 Tim 2:6 Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.

(continued)

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

1 Peter 2:24
24 and He Himself bore [the penalty for] our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

Rather, He bore the evil of our sins, and by His wounds merited reward and grace, which He likewise gave to us, emptying Himself, and thus heals us.

That verse refers to Isaias 53:5.
But notice in that passage:

Isaias 53:4 Surely he hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows: and we have thought him as it were a leper, and as one struck by God and afflicted.

It seems you fall into this perspective - you think He was one struck by God.

Isaias 53:5 But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

The only “penalty” was the bearing “of” our sins, not a punishment “for” sins.

Isaias 53:7 He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth: he shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth.

He was a voluntary offering for our healing. A substitutionary sacrifice for atonement. Not a penal substitution. If you call suffering the iniquity of sin voluntarily a “penalty”, then it could work, but that is not the kind of “penalty” you are promoting, nor is it a proper definition of penalty, which implies something imposed involuntarily. Neither does the notion of penalty you promote consistent with Christ being a High Priest. etc.

sandusky:

Jesus did not die as a martyr; He died as a Saviour, a sinless Substitute. The word translated “bare” means “to carry as a sacrifice.” The Jewish people did not crucify criminals; they stoned them to death. But if the victim was especially evil, his dead body was hung on a tree until evening, as a mark of shame (Deut. 21:23). Jesus died on a tree—a cross—and bore the curse of the Law (Gal. 3:13).

This may all be true. But are you saying you think the penalty of our sins was merely the curse of the Law? In fact, since He is bearing our iniquity, our sins, then that is epitome of the showing of God’s justice. For Christ did fulfill the Law. Yet He unjustly bore being hung on a tree, which by the Law is cursed. That does not support your view of suffering penalty for our sins. It is another case of bearing sins, which He did without saying a word, being totally innocent, and in that meriting much.

sandusky:

His atonement dealt with the guilt, debt, ruin, and bondage of sin—once for all.

Yes, a sacrifical atonement. It more than offset the evil, and is the source of all grace by which we may walk in new life. But it is the pleasing justice of His merit, not the survival of God’s just retribution for our sins.

So instead of being loyal to a hero who survived a calamity we caused, we should be sacrifically loving a savior who willingly bore our sins and offered His body and blood to be our eternal life. He is our Life!

You unwittingly accept a life of self when you think God saves you by punishing Jesus in your place. We must truly die to ourselves and live in Christ if we are to have any life at all. Again, that is why He said:

John 6:54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

We must follow Him and imitate Him, and not just think He did it so we don’t have to! That is critical to true Christian life.

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Let us be friends of the Cross, not enemies thereof.

Philippians 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often (and now tell you weeping), that they are enemies of the cross of Christ; 19 Whose end is destruction; whose God is their belly; and whose glory is in their shame; who mind earthly things. 20 But our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, our Lord Jesus Christ,

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

No. The believer’s sins are forgiven by God, once for all, BECAUSE of the cross of Christ.

Unscriptural. Why would there be any need for a ministry of reconciliation, or for people to pray that sins be forgiven, or that we must forgive in order to be forgiven, or that Christ gave power to forgive sins, or that some sins are not forgiven, if they are all already forgiven once for all?

2 Corinthians 5:18 But all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Christ; and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.

Acts 8:22 Do penance therefore for this thy wickedness; and pray to God, that perhaps this thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee.

James 5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

Mark 11:25 And when you shall stand to pray, forgive, if you have aught against any man; that your Father also, who is in heaven, may forgive you your sins. **26 But if you will not forgive, neither will your Father that is in heaven, forgive you your sins. **

John 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Matthew 12:31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Instead, He suffered “once for all”, but forgiveness is handed out. He merited enough to satisfy for all, and now He sits on High making purgation of sins for those who believe.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high.

So, how would you classify “making purgation of sins” from on high?

bene7:

The relationship the believer has with God the Father is not as Judge, but His beloved child. He (the believer) HAS eternal life and does not come into judgment, but (being in Christ) has passed out of death into life (John 5:24).

But this can be lost by falling from the faith.

bene7:

No, it doesn’t mean you have “access” to forgiveness of sins. It means that because of Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice, the believer, at the time of personal belief, receives the forgiveness of sins which Christ accomplished through the cross:

But that is what access is. Besides, what about the person who falls from faith and is cut off?

bene7:

Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins" (Acts 10:43).

When one “believes” he "receives. Forgiveness of sins doesn’t “flow” from the cross, they’re “proclaimed” forgiven BECAUSE of the cross:

“Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you” (Acts 13:38).

I think you will have to define “proclaimed”. Certainly, beleiving comes from hearing, which comes from preaching, or proclaiming. But the forgiveness didn’t occur until one believed what was proclaimed. Just because God was ready to forgive doesn’t mean it happened to the subject already. This very occurrence is the “flow”. Because when we are forgiven, we receive grace and strength to actually live in charity with others. But if we refuse to live in charity (refuse to forgive others), then forgiveness does not get applied to us, it does not “flow” to us. The forgiveness that God has for us and which is proclaimed, has to be believed to take effect.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

The Catholic church has apostatized from this divinely revealed truth. Clearly demonstrated by what “Hust” posted on this thread:

Originally Posted by Hurst
“The finished work of Christ should not be taken to mean that our work is finished. He amassed a huge store of merit and grace for our salvation, and we must “go to Joseph” and ask for this “grain” kept to offset the famine of sin that souls suffer on earth.”

We must profit by Christ’s atonement in order to be saved in the end. We indeed taste salvation, but that is not the fullness thereof. We must persevere to actually obtain it.

This is what you mean by “forgiveness flows from the cross.” A notion totally contrary to what God has revealed in His written Word regarding sin and the sacrifice of His own Son on man’s behalf.

You could say it “flows”, sure. But it is by faith. I have showed in detail numerous scripture passages that indicate Christ sits on High making purgation of sins, and that it is by faith, and that He can not work miracles unless the recipients had faith.

So it is not contrary to Scripture, as you explictly charge.

bene7:

The idea that Jesus through His substitutionary sacrifice “amassed a huge store of merit and grace FOR our salvation,” and that men must, themselves, go to that “storehouse” where these “merits” are kept, is completely foreign to Biblical revelation.

That is an unreasonable charge. I gave the scripture from the Old Testament about Pharoah’s grain houses that Joseph was put in charge of. That was a type foreshadowing the future Church in the NT.

Furthermore, this passage supports it as well:

Ephesians 1:6 Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us in his beloved son. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace, 8 Which hath superabounded in us all wisdom and prudence, 9 That he might make known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in him, 10 In the dispensation of the fulness of times, to re-establish all things in Christ, that are in heaven and on earth, in him.

His superabundant riches of grace. How then do you charge this as “completely foreign to Biblical revelation”?

bene7:

Nor is it revealed that this was a part of either Paul’s or Peter’s gospel. After the cross of Christ the Apostles were sent out into the world to PROCLAIM forgiveness of sins to all who would believe in Christ. Not to be conduits to some storehouse of cross acquired merits. Where do you find such a concept in their writings?

See Ephesians 1 above.

Also:

Romans 5:1 Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 By whom also we have access through faith into this grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God.

So you see, it is indeed “access” to “grace”.

hurst