Purgatory and 1 Corinthians 15:52

[hurst]

bene7:

As shown in the previous post forgiveness of sins is not “dispersed,” it is “proclaimed” to all who believe, based on Christ’s substitutionary death. And when a sinner believes in Christ he is fully redeemed (purchased) by His blood. There are three words used in Scripture for redemption:

agorazo… To purchase in the market (Rev. 5:9; 14:3-4)
exagorazo… To purchase and to REMOVE or TAKE OUT of the market, never to return (Gal. 3:13; 4:5)
lutroo… Loosed and set free (Titus 2:14; 1Pet. 1:18)

Peter, writing to believers, states emphatically that they were redeemed (purchased, loosed and set free) with the precious blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19). At the time of personal belief the believer is fully and completely redeemed (purchased) by Christ’s blood through His finished work on the cross. The purchase price having been paid “in full.” To deny this is to deny the cross.

You are simplifying it to the exclusion of other requirements. Redemption is something Christ did. His work on the cross is finished. But He now intercedes with the Father.

Hebrews 7:25 Whereby he is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to make intercession for us.

Salvation is what we have to cooperate in to apply the fruits of the redemption to ourselves. He makes purgation of sins from on high. Ministers down here make it known, and believers are reconciled.

Christ’s work on the cross does not require our belief to be worth something in itself. But it does require our belief to apply to us. The belief is faith in His blood to be able to take away our sins, not belief that He suffered the hell we deserve.

Also, besides faith, penance is required and charity is required.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to Jews and Gentiles penance towards God, and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Apocalypse 2:5 Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.

1 John 4:16 And we have known, and have believed the charity, which God hath to us. God is charity: and he that abideth in charity, abideth in God, and God in him.

1 John 5:3 For this is the charity of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not heavy.

bene7:

Paul writes to the Corinthian believers:

“For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body” (1 Cor. 6:20).

“You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men” (1 Cor. 6:23).

There is no place in “Purgatory” for those who have been purchased with the price of Christ’s shed blood, and through the cross forgiven of all sins.

That he follows it with an exhortation should alert you to the fact that it requires one to hold on to it. And suppose you hold on imperfectly? God chastises those He loves.

Apocalypse 3:19 Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance.

If we do not finish our penance in this life, then we must finish it in the next, after our particular judgment but before the final judgment of resurrection.

hurst

 

[sandusky]

Hurst:

I don’t think you understood what I meant. What Jesus said admits of the possibility of sins being forgiven in the next life by specifying a kind that isn’t.

I understand exactly what you said and what you are saying. You are building a doctrine on what is not being said.

Hurst:

I don’t think an interpretation is inserted here. That He says “nor in the world to come” gives rise to the consideration that in the world to come, there may in fact be other sins that will be forgiven.

And what are those sins that “may in fact be forgiven in the world to come, Hurst?”

Hurst:

I agree that it says nothing explicitly about purgatory.

Now you’re talking; stay with that thought for awhile.

Hurst:

But yes, it does say something about forgiveness after death.

Indeed; the something it says about forgiveness of sins after death is nothing.

Hurst:

I do not see how receiving the judgment after death refutes purgatory. In fact, the judgment after death is not the only judgment. There is another judgment on the Last Day, pertaining to the resurrection.

Good! Now you are getting scriptural. Stay with that thought for a while.

Hurst:

So the judgment rendered at death, while determining one’s final destiny (Heaven or Hell), nevertheless leaves one in an intermediate state until the Day of Judgment / Resurrection.

Again, stay with that thought. The intermediate state has to do with not having a body; what Paul refers to as being “naked,” (2 Cor 5:1-5).

Hurst:

The notion of Purgatory is not contrary to this.

Yes it is; the intermediate state is not about a place, but a condition—being without a body, which man is made to have.

Hurst:

But even more interesting is the fact that Jesus raised people from the dead, as did the Apostles after Jesus’ death and resurrection. This should be the most obvious indication that sins are forgiven even after one dies.

I don’t know what to say. You have a very vivid imagination.

Hurst:

John 12:9 A great multitude therefore of the Jews knew that he was there; and they came, not for Jesus’ sake only, but that they might see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead.

Acts 9:40 And they all being put forth, Peter kneeling down prayed, and turning to the body, he said: Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes; and seeing Peter, she sat up.

There are a number of implications here… To maintain your position that sins are not forgiven after one dies, you will have to claim that these dead either did not have any sins to be forgiven, or that they were brought back in the same sinful state as when they died.

But Jesus typically brought forgiveness to people when He healed them, so to say He did not do so before raising them back to life would go against that standard.

Yes, Jesus raised them from the dead, but I assure they are back in the grave now.

Jesus is the only one who has been resurrected.

Raised < Resurrection.

There is a huge difference between being raised from the dead, and being resurrected.

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

Yes, Jesus raised them from the dead, but I assure they are back in the grave now.

Jesus is the only one who has been resurrected.

Raised < Resurrection.

There is a huge difference between being raised from the dead, and being resurrected.

But the question remains: did Jesus forgive their sins before He raised them back to life?

Another would be: did those people receive their particular judgment when they died?

And a third would be pertaining to those the Apostles raised after Jesus was resurrected and opened Heaven.

hurst

 

[sandusky]

hurst:

But the question remains: did Jesus forgive their sins before He raised them back to life?

Hurst, I will grant you that those are interesting questions. As you have stated and quoted Romans 1:17, the just shall live by faith. O.T. and N.T. salvation is always by faith. So if those who had died, and were later raised, had died believing in God, then yes, I would say that their sins had been forgiven. If they had died in unbelief, and were raised (and that is a possibility as well), then they were graced in such a way as to possibly believe the second time around.

Ultimately, though, I do not know for certain, as scripture does not tell me enough to know for certain.

hurst:

Another would be: did those people receive their particular judgment when they died?

That is another interesting question. If I take Heb 9:27 at face value then I would say yes. That question opens the road to all kinds of interesting discussion, if one’s mind is so inclined to engage in that type of speculation.

hurst:

And a third would be pertaining to those the Apostles raised after Jesus was resurrected and opened Heaven.

I would answer that as I answered the two questions above.

The important thing to understand, IMO, is what was the purpose of all of the miracles that Jesus and the apostles performed?

Understanding scripture’s explanation of that puts the miracles into a better a perspective, while keeping us safely within the limits of what has been revealed.

 

[bene7]

hurst:

Rather, He bore the evil of our sins, and by His wounds merited reward and grace, which He likewise gave to us, emptying Himself, and thus heals us.

I think you fail to understand what a substitute sacrifice is, hence your failure to grasp the power of the cross of Christ.

Peter writes:

“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God…” (1 Pet. 3:18)

He didn’t bear the “evil of our sins,” but in fact our sins were imputed to Him while on the cross as a substitutionary sacrifice:

“He (God) made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor. 5:21).

This was prefigured by the “Day of Atonement” under the Mosaic Law (Lev. 16) when one goat was slain on behalf of the people as a sin offering and its blood brought into the Holy of Holies and sprinkled on and in front of the mercy seat. While another, a “scapegoat” (“goat of removal”) would be presented alive before the Lord, on which the sins of the people were imputed by the laying on of hands, and then led into the wilderness to be set free (based on the death and blood sacrifice of the other). This was a graphic prefiguring (type) of Christ’s finished work on the cross on behalf of all mankind. When our sins were imputed to Him on the cross, and through His death the believer’s sins are forever removed (forgiven) in the sight of God, and His righteousness imputed to him.

“For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel (good news), not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void. For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (Col. 1:17-18).

Catholicism as lost this message of the power of the cross to save sinners to the complexity of its religious system. And when presented with the simplicity of the cross, it considers it foolishness. It has constructed in its place a meritorious system by which men must ultimatiely save themselves through good works, as well as suffer themselves for the cleansing of their own sins, not only in this life but the one to come in “Purgatory.” Under this system the cross is actually “made void.”

No. The believer’s sins are forgiven by God, once for all, BECAUSE of the cross of Christ.

hurst:

Unscriptural. Why would there be any need for a ministry of reconciliation

The Apostle’s “ministry of reconciliation” (2 Cor. 5:18) was the preaching the cross of Christ and the “word” of reconciliation: “namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them” (2 Cor. 5:19).

or for people to pray that sins be forgiven

Can you show me where Paul or Peter or any of the writers of the Epistles (which explain the cross) instruct believers to pray for forgiveness of sins?

or that we must forgive in order to be forgiven

This side of the cross, sins are forgiven on only one condition, you believe in the Person and work of Jesus Christ (“that the cross of Christ should not be made void”).

or that Christ gave power to forgive sins

The authority of the Apostles forgiving or retaining sins (John 20:23) was based on the “word of the cross” and a person’s rejection or acceptance of it. There is absolutely no record of anyone coming to an Apostle to get his sins forgiven or an Apostle personally forgiving anyone’s sins, much less not forgiving the sins of anyone (Acts 10:43; 13:38).

HEB 9:24 "For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of
the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for
us;

HEB 9:25 nor was it that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest
enters the holy place year by year with blood not his own.

HEB 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation
of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been
manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

HEB 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this
comes judgment,

HEB 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,
shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who
eagerly await Him".

For this reason, hurst, forgiveness of sins, beginning with the Apostles and down to this present generation, has been declared, proclaimed. A message, by the grace of God, that has survived even though many have desired to make void the cross, the ground on which God is free to forgive those who believe in His Son.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

hurst:

I think you will have to define “proclaimed”. Certainly, beleiving comes from hearing, which comes from preaching, or proclaiming. But the forgiveness didn’t occur until one believed what was proclaimed. Just because God was ready to forgive doesn’t mean it happened to the subject already. This very occurrence is the “flow”. Because when we are forgiven, we receive grace and strength to actually live in charity with others. But if we refuse to live in charity (refuse to forgive others), then forgiveness does not get applied to us, it does not “flow” to us. The forgiveness that God has for us and which is proclaimed, has to be believed to take effect.

It was the forgiveness of sins that was proclaimed by them. To “proclaim” means to declare. They “declared” the forgiveness of sins through faith in the crucified Christ whom they preached.

“…but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness” (1 Cor. 1:23).

“For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified” (1 Cor. 2:2).

“But may it never be that I should boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Gal. 6:14).

Actually, hurst, according to what you’ve revealed, it seems you yourself have not believed the Apostolic message of the forgiveness God has for you. A forgiveness not based on your own merits (good works), but on the substitutionary work of of Christ on the cross. Divine forgiveness based on conditions, like the ones you specify above, make void the cross.

That is an unreasonable charge. I gave the scripture from the Old Testament about Pharoah’s grain houses that Joseph was put in charge of. That was a type foreshadowing the future Church in the NT.

Certainly Joseph can be considered a type of Christ, in that he was rejected by his own brethren, and the one who was rejected and reported as dead, ended up being their savior. But go back and read the account, hurst. Joseph SOLD the grain to the Egyptians and surrounding peoples (Gen. 41:56-57), thereby making Pharaoh very rich and eventually even enslaving the Egyptians themselves (Gen. 47:13-26). This speaks nothing of GRACE. You might try to justify the selling of “Indulgences” through this example, but the doctrine of “Indulgences,” much less the selling of them, is not Biblical either.

His superabundant riches of grace. How then do you charge this as “completely foreign to Biblical revelation”?

Because like I demonstrated, your example of Joseph and Pharaoh’s grain houses speak nothing to the doctrine of God’s abundant grace toward us through Christ, as revealed and explained in the N.T. Epistles You quoted Eph. 1:6-10 but those verses actually speak of the unlimited grace (unmerited favor) God is now free to exercise toward believers BECAUSE of Christ’s substitutionary death on the cross: “In Him we HAVE redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace” (i.e., unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor through Christ). No, believers do not have to (using your analogy of Pharaoh’s grain houses) “buy” forgiveness, “buy” redemption, or “buy” God’s favor which you claim is locked up in some kind of heavenly storehouse. Such a concept is totally foreign not only to Scripture but to the God revealed in those sacred writings.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

hurst:

Originally Posted by bene7
As shown in the previous post forgiveness of sins is not “dispersed,” it is “proclaimed” to all who believe, based on Christ’s substitutionary death. And when a sinner believes in Christ he is fully redeemed (purchased) by His blood. There are three words used in Scripture for redemption:

agorazo… To purchase in the market (Rev. 5:9; 14:3-4)
exagorazo… To purchase and to REMOVE or TAKE OUT of the market, never to return (Gal. 3:13; 4:5)
lutroo… Loosed and set free (Titus 2:14; 1Pet. 1:18)

Peter, writing to believers, states emphatically that they were redeemed (purchased, loosed and set free) with the precious blood of Christ (1 Pet. 1:18-19). At the time of personal belief the believer is fully and completely redeemed (purchased) by Christ’s blood through His finished work on the cross. The purchase price having been paid “in full.” To deny this is to deny the cross.

Hurst responded:

You are simplifying it to the exclusion of other requirements.

Actually, you’re complcating it to the exclusion of the cross.

Redemption is something Christ did.

Actually it’s something He accomplished with the price of shedding His own precious blood. And therefore both Peter and Paul state that the believer has been bought with a price, not referring to silver and gold, but Christ’s precious blood.

Christ’s work on the cross is finished. But He now intercedes with the Father.

Hebrews 7:25 Whereby he is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to make intercession for us.

Notice the writer of Hebrews says, “…He is able to save forever them that come to God by Him?” As our High Priest He ever lives to make intercession for us whom He saved forever through faith in Him. Like He did, even while on earth, on behalf of Peter when he denied Him three times. Peter belonged to Him (as do all true believers, that’s what redemption’s all about) and Christ kept his faith from failing completely by interceding for him. Read the account.

Salvation is what we have to cooperate in to apply the fruits of the redemption to ourselves.

Actually, salvation is what we have been given (gift-wise, Eph. 2:8-9) based on the redemption He procured by the shedding of His blood on the cross.

He makes purgation of sins from on high.

Not according to the writer of Hebews. He made purification of sins down here on earth, THEN He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (Heb. 1:3). Christ is not dealing with sins through His ministry of intercession in Heaven, He dealt with sins, once and for all, while still here on earth through the sacrifice of Himself.

Ministers down here make it known, and believers are reconciled.

A true minister of Christ makes known that a believer HAS BEEN reconciled to God through the cross of Chrsit.

Christ’s work on the cross does not require our belief to be worth something in itself. But it does require our belief to apply to us.

I agree. But one must believe in what God has revealed He has accomplished through the sacrifice of His Son. Otherwise faith has no content, no substance, it serves no purpose.

The belief is faith in His blood to be able to take away our sins

Belief is that Christ actually took away our sins through the sacrifice of Himself, according to the Scriptures. That’s what a substitutionary sacrifice does. That’s the content of faith in the cross of Christ.

not belief that He suffered the hell we deserve.

He died the death we could not die: “the Just for the unjust.” When the infinitely Holy Son of God took upon Himself our (your) sins He suffered far beyond what any of us could ever imagine. Far worse than even Hell. You have no idea what you’re talking about or you could never make such a statement. But this is the gospel (good news), Hurst.

Also, besides faith, penance is required and charity is required.

You are now attempting to make void the cross. “Repentance” is not “penance.”

Blessings,
Bene

 

[hurst]

bene7:

Originally Posted by hurst
Rather, He bore the evil of our sins, and by His wounds merited reward and grace, which He likewise gave to us, emptying Himself, and thus heals us.

I think you fail to understand what a substitute sacrifice is, hence your failure to grasp the power of the cross of Christ.

Peter writes:

“For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God…” (1 Pet. 3:18)

He didn’t bear the “evil of our sins,” but in fact our sins were imputed to Him while on the cross as a substitutionary sacrifice:

He didn’t? Isaias 53 foretells of this.

He bore our infirmities. You think God struck and afflicted Him.

Isaias 53:1 Who hath believed our report? … 4 Surely he hath borne our infirmities and carried our sorrows: and we have thought him as it were a leper, and as one struck by God and afflicted.

Perhaps you think these next verses prove that sin was imputed to Him in order that He should be penalized and so struck.

Isaias 53:5 But he was wounded for our iniquities, he was bruised for our sins: the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his bruises we are healed.

But that is amiss because someone merely suffering a penalty for another does not of itself bring healing, though it might avert destruction.

But in fact, God placed on Him not a legal penalty, but our actual evil sins:

Isaias 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray, every one hath turned aside into his own way: and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

So the evil of our sins, our iniquity, was laid upon Him. He bore up under that. On top of bearing the weight of all the sins of the world of all time, it included the unjust treatment He endured.

Where is the basis for you thinking that by taking upon Himself this iniquity, He rendered Himself displeasing to God and worthy of punishment?? No. He was a willing sacrifice, and as Eternal High Priest, offered Himself, and was a pleasing offering to God. God allowed this injustice because Christ offered Himself to atone for our wickedness.

Isaias 53:7 He was offered because it was his own will, and he opened not his mouth: he shall be led as a sheep to the slaughter, and shall be dumb as a lamb before his shearer, and he shall not open his mouth. 8 He was taken away from distress, and from judgment: who shall declare his generation? because he is cut off out of the land of the living: for the wickedness of my people have I struck him.

He was struck, but not as if He looked ugly to God for bearing those sins. Rather, that is how we saw Him, “as one struck by God and afflicted” (Is 53:4). But God was pleased with Him, for He brought glory to God by innocently suffering as such.

Isaias 53:9 And he shall give the ungodly for his burial, and the rich for his death: because he hath done no iniquity, neither was there deceit in his mouth. 10 And the Lord was pleased to bruise him in infirmity: if he shall lay down his life for sin, he shall see a long-lived seed, and the will of the Lord shall be prosperous in his hand.

He justified us by His merit, not by surviving a penalty. His own justice was greater than the injustice of the sin laid upon Him.

Isaias 53:11 Because his soul hath laboured, he shall see and be filled: by his knowledge shall this my just servant justify many, …

So again, He bore our iniquities, that is, the evil of our sins.

Isaias 53:11 … and he shall bear their iniquities.

And so God rewards Him, not because God reputed Him with the wicked, but because men reputed Him with the wicked wrongly (perhaps including present-day Protestants who think God punished Him with our legal penalty?)

Isaias 53:12 Therefore will I distribute to him very many, and he shall divide the spoils of the strong, because he hath delivered his soul unto death, and was reputed with the wicked: …

So, He willingly bore our sins, and offered Himself for us, that is, for our benefit. It is Christ seeking to atone for us, and thus He prays for us.

Isaias 53:12 …and he hath borne the sins of many, and hath prayed for the transgressors.

If He prayed for them, then it was not an automatic penal substitution. Instead, it was a scrificial substitution, which God was free to accept or reject, just as any offered sacrifice may or may not be pleasing to God.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

“For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel (good news), not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void. For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God” (Col. 1:17-18).

Catholicism as lost this message of the power of the cross to save sinners to the complexity of its religious system.

Paul does not consititute the entire Gospel in this passage. Don’t forget that Christ called Peter to feed His flock. Christ sent them to baptize and teach. But Paul was not called to baptize, but to preach the Gospel. That doesn’t mean no one gets baptized, though.

bene7:

And when presented with the simplicity of the cross, it considers it foolishness.

Rather, it considers the Cross the foundation from which the whole system is built.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

So even Paul acknowledges that it is to be built upon.

bene7:

It has constructed in its place a meritorious system by which men must ultimatiely save themselves through good works,

You are wrong and right. It is not a “meritorious system” that redeems us, but it is a meritorious system by which the redemption of Christ is distributed and applied to us. And we can be rewarded for saving others by helping to apply it to others. And this is scriptural.

Jude 1:23 But others save, pulling them out of the fire.

1 Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Cor 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak. I became all things to all men, that I might save all.

1 Thess 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of glory? Are not you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

2 Cor 1:14 As also you have known us in part, that we are your glory, as you also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew 6:20 But lay up to yourselves treasures in heaven

Luke 12:33 Sell what you possess and give alms. Make to yourselves bags which grow not old, a treasure in heaven which faileth not: where no thief approacheth, nor moth corrupteth.

etc.

Do not confuse the merit of redemption won by Christ with the merit of obedience in faith done by us in the grace of God. We must surely perform good works in order to obey God and enter the Kingdom which we see now by faith.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and might cleanse to himself a people acceptable, a pursuer of good works.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election.

John 5:29 And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

bene7:

… as well as suffer themselves for the cleansing of their own sins, not only in this life but the one to come in “Purgatory.”

Yes and no. We must cooperate by faith in order to be cleansed and forgiven. We don’t do it without God, but neither does God apply it to us without our willingness.

We must seek and find. We must ask and receive. Without faith, Christ did not perform miracles. Likewise, without faith, we cannot receive forgiveness. And part of this is because there is no justice without faith.

In purgatory, we do not cleanse ourselves. Those in purgatory cannot help themselves, but must rely on our prayers.

bene7:

Under this system the cross is actually “made void.”

Does a house make its foundation void? The whole system is built upon the foundation of Christ and His Cross.

The only thing made void is your erroneous understanding of the cross. You seem to make void the commandment of God to perform good works in faith and charity, and empty it of its value by mere declaration.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

Can you show me where Paul or Peter or any of the writers of the Epistles (which explain the cross) instruct believers to pray for forgiveness of sins?

Consider the following, where Peter rebuked Simon for seeking to pay for the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also; and being baptized, he adhered to Philip. And being astonished, wondered to see the signs and exceeding great miracles which were done. … 19 Saying: Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I shall lay my hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said to him … 22 Do penance therefore for this thy wickedness; and pray to God, that perhaps this thought of thy heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I see thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bonds of iniquity.

So here we have one who believed and was baptized, even according to the testimony of Scripture, but yet who was told to pray for forgiveness. Furthermore, who was seen to be in the bonds of iniquity.

See then, that by faith we are now given the means to obtain forgiveness, sanctification, and ultimately, salvation. If we fall away, we must do penance and return to works of love

Apocalypse 2:4 But I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first charity. 5 Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.

Another consideration is what Christ told Paul when He sent Him out:

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, that they may be converted from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and a lot among the saints, by the faith that is in me.

Yet another, if you will accept John’s epistle,

1 John 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

This side of the cross, sins are forgiven on only one condition, you believe in the Person and work of Jesus Christ (“that the cross of Christ should not be made void”).

You are excluding other things for the sake of what seems like your tradition.

For example, Christ Himself taught us the condition:

Matthew 6:15 But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.

Matthew 18:35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

Mark 11:25 And when you shall stand to pray, forgive, if you have aught against any man; that your Father also, who is in heaven, may forgive you your sins. 26 But if you will not forgive, neither will your Father that is in heaven, forgive you your sins.

You see, what you seem to be missing is that faith is the necessary ingredient for justice, and that is why we are “justified” by faith. It is not that faith makes us just, as much as being just requires faith. For we are called to be just, that is, to act justly. That is why faith without works is dead: because faith without acts of justice is not a faith by which one may obtain forgiveness and live in Christ, as shown.

Yet, we may have enough faith to see where we want to be, and we can pray for progress.

Mark 9:23 And immediately the father of the boy crying out, with tears said: I do believe, Lord: help my unbelief.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

The authority of the Apostles forgiving or retaining sins (John 20:23) was based on the “word of the cross” and a person’s rejection or acceptance of it.

That verse is:

John 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

So you think it actually means “whose sins you shall forgive [by enabling them to believe they are forgiven by having declared their forgiveness to them], they are forgiven them”?

The problem is that the system you have built does not include all scripture. You have limited it to a concept of declaring forgiveness, when in fact the scriptures do not tend to support that in general. In fact, you reduce it to a certain mental acknowledgement. Aren’t you, then, making void the power of the Cross? But God really does take away our sins by our faith, by working His justice in us! But justice requires faith, and we must walk in this faith and act justly. It is not a matter of merely asserting we believe that we are forgiven and that God “considers” us just, and leaves it at that. We actually are made just, and have to use it or lose it.

We must do the good works God planned for us, and so bring glory to Him

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Matthew 5:16 So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

The other problem is that He says they retain sins. That pretty much breaks your concept of sins being “forgiven once for all”. Instead, sins have been “atoned once for all”, but not forgiven until one believes, does penance, and is baptized. That is scriptural.

bene7:

There is absolutely no record of anyone coming to an Apostle to get his sins forgiven or an Apostle personally forgiving anyone’s sins, much less not forgiving the sins of anyone (Acts 10:43; 13:38).

Consider this passage:

Acts 5:3 But Peter said: Ananias, why hath Satan tempted thy heart, that thou shouldst lie to the Holy Ghost, and by fraud keep part of the price of the land? 4 Whilst it remained, did it not remain to thee? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thy heart? Thou hast not lied to men, but to God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words, fell down, and gave up the ghost. And there came great fear upon all that heard it. 6 And the young men rising up, removed him, and carrying him out, buried him.

This passage poses a problem for your concept of the cross, because these Christians were punished with death for a sin.

You say we already have forgiveness merely by belief in the act of Christ on the Cross. Was Ananias refused forgiveness? And can you consider death to be “discipline”? And if he was still forgiven, why was he punished, if Christ also paid for all of our punishment on the Cross? For don’t you also assert that Purgatory is unnecessary if Christ paid all our penalty?

But in fact, Christ suffered for the atonement of all our sins, and if we withhold anything, then we make void His cross in that part of us, and we have to suffer it ourself. But since we have His life in another part of our souls, that part can supply for the part lacking it. We can participate in our own cleansing by the grace we do have. In fact, we can participate in the cleansing of others

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church.

1 John 5:16 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

Actually, hurst, according to what you’ve revealed, it seems you yourself have not believed the Apostolic message of the forgiveness God has for you. A forgiveness not based on your own merits (good works), but on the substitutionary work of of Christ on the cross.

Thanks be to God I have put my faith in the work Christ accomplished for me. And I continue to take thoughts captive (2 Cor 10:4-5) and work on purifying my heart by this faith (Acts 15:8-9). When I fail I seek to rise again by penance to return to charity and give glory back to God (Apoc 2:5,16:9).

I do not consider myself as meriting forgiveness, for I cannot save myself. But I cannot be saved without myself, either. I must go forth and do good works now. I must strive by good works to avoid sin and ensure my salvation.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

John 12:35 Jesus therefore said to them: Yet a little while, the light is among you. Walk whilst you have the light, that the darkness overtake you not. And he that walketh in darkness, knoweth not whither he goeth.

James 2:13 For judgment without mercy to him that hath not done mercy.

Does a baby, once born, no longer do anything? Does it not grow and learn in this life? Likewise must we grow in salvation

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the rational milk without guile, that thereby you may grow unto salvation …
21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps. …
24 Who his own self bore our sins in his body upon the tree: that we, being dead to sins, should live to justice …

For now that we have the light of faith, we must do work in that light, lest we be cast out

1 John 2:8 Again a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true both in him and in you; because the darkness is passed, and the true light now shineth. 9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother, abideth in the light, and there is no scandal in him.

John 12:35 Jesus therefore said to them: Yet a little while, the light is among you. Walk whilst you have the light, that the darkness overtake you not. And he that walketh in darkness, knoweth not whither he goeth.

Apocalypse 2:5 Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.

bene7:

Divine forgiveness based on conditions, like the ones you specify above, make void the cross.

These conditions are scriptural and even enjoined upon us by Our Lord. You would do well to acknowledge that Christ is Lord, Redeemer, and King. He teaches us how to live, saves us from sins, and governs us. Do you restrict His involvement only to the saving part?

We must obey His commands. He has a new commandment for us, one we can only do by His grace. I exhort you to not make void the faith you have in the cross by neglecting to do the works to which we are called.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

But you have a tradition, so to speak, of holding only to the notion that by the cross of Christ everyone “already has” forgiveness, and that “Faith” is simply believing that we have it, and that anything else “makes void” the cross.

But it occurs to me that the following passage can be made to apply to you

Matthew 15:3 But he answering, said to them: Why do you also transgress the commandment of God for your tradition?

For you are saying that by giving faith to the notion that we already have forgiveness and salvation, you neglect or discount the good works we are called to do in faith.

But how is God glorified on earth by your concept of salvation. Is it not rather a case of the emperor’s clothes? You wish to be paid in the King’s gold for something no one can see. Salvation without works? Is God glorified without good works? Works are either good or bad, and we will have to render account for them. For God to be glorified by your bad works is for God to punish them. To be rewarded we must invest the grace given us by virtue of the Redemption in good works.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

… your example of Joseph and Pharaoh’s grain houses speak nothing to the doctrine of God’s abundant grace toward us through Christ, as revealed and explained in the N.T.

Think Bread of Life.

Joseph in the NT was given charge of Mary from whom the Bread of Life came.

Peter also represents Joseph, being given the task of feeding the lambs and sheep.

Luke 12:41 And Peter said to him: Lord, dost thou speak this parable to us, or likewise to all? 42 And the Lord said: Who (thinkest thou) is the faithful and wise steward, whom his lord setteth over his family, to give them their measure of wheat in due season?

John 21:17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

1 Peter 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking care of it, not by constraint, but willingly, according to God: not for filthy lucre’s sake, but voluntarily:

bene7:

… No, believers do not have to (using your analogy of Pharaoh’s grain houses) “buy” forgiveness, “buy” redemption, or “buy” God’s favor which you claim is locked up in some kind of heavenly storehouse. Such a concept is totally foreign not only to Scripture but to the God revealed in those sacred writings.

Is it?

1 Timothy 6:18 To do good, to be rich in good works, to give easily, to communicate to others, 19 To lay up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on the true life.

Apocalypse 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Proverbs 16:16 Get wisdom, because it is better than gold: and purchase prudence, for it is more precious than silver.

Isaias 55:1 All you that thirst, come to the waters: and you that have no money make haste, buy, and eat: come ye, buy wine and milk without money, and without any price. 2 Why do you spend money for that which is not breed, and your labour for that which doth not satisfy you? Hearken diligently to me, and eat that which is good, and your soul shall be delighted in fatness. 3 Incline your ear and come to me: hear and your soul shall live, and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, the faithful mercies of David.

We must buy it, so to speak, with our desire.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

Actually, you’re complcating it to the exclusion of the cross.

As I said before, it is built upon Christ and the work of His Cross. Does a house complicate and exclude the foundation? Do you not rather make void the purpose of the foundation by neglecting or discounting the building of the house upon it?

bene7:

Actually it’s something He accomplished with the price of shedding His own precious blood.

The blood is not just a price, btw. It is actually our life.

John 6:54 … Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. … 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

bene7:

And therefore both Peter and Paul state that the believer has been bought with a price, not referring to silver and gold, but Christ’s precious blood.

Agreed. And we must live in that blod and do good works in that blood and let that blood flow in us in order for us to reach the completion of our salvation in the charity of Christ and the fullness of His life in the glory of Heaven.

bene7:

Notice the writer of Hebrews says, “…He is able to save forever them that come to God by Him?” As our High Priest He ever lives to make intercession for us whom He saved forever through faith in Him.

Did you miss the word “able”? Being able to save forever does not mean He already saved forever. And if He had already saved forever, then He wouldn’t still be making intercession. Rather, for those who apply for it, He is able to save forever. But we must apply for it our whole life unto the end, in order to finally obtain it.

bene7:

Like He did, even while on earth, on behalf of Peter when he denied Him three times. Peter belonged to Him (as do all true believers, that’s what redemption’s all about) and Christ kept his faith from failing completely by interceding for him.

And did you notice that Christ had to ask Him three times whether Peter loved Him? Peter had to cooperate.

bene7:

Actually, salvation is what we have been given (gift-wise, Eph. 2:8-9) based on the redemption He procured by the shedding of His blood on the cross.

We do not possess it in fact, but only in faith. Even then, we do not have it completely. It is not until after death that we possess it. This is because faith can fail.

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts

Gal 3:26 For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus.

bene7:

He makes purgation of sins from on high.

Not according to the writer of Hebews. He made purification of sins down here on earth, THEN He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (Heb. 1:3).

I stand corrected. I misread that. Yes, He objectively made purgation of sins by His passion here on earth, and is now on high.

However, this does not change the fact that we still have our sins until we are joined to His body wherein He purged those sins. For He took the sins upon Himself and purged them in Himself.

And since He is on high now, and we have to put our faith in Him, then subjectively speaking, He is effecting the redemption of the purging of sins in us now, while He is on high. But it occurs as we are united to Him in faith and charity.

bene7:

Christ is not dealing with sins through His ministry of intercession in Heaven,

I’d be interested to know what all you think He makes intercession for…

bene7:

He dealt with sins, once and for all, while still here on earth through the sacrifice of Himself.

Obviously that doesn’t mean no one has sins anymore. Do you think that “true believers” don’t have any sin?

bene7:

A true minister of Christ makes known that a believer HAS BEEN reconciled to God through the cross of Chrsit.

God did His part, but it doesn’t take effect in us until we are joined to Him. So you can’t beg the question and say it has already been done. Of course, once someone “believes” it is done, then it would seem to be that it is true since it is now done through his belief, but the basis is not that it was already done “in” that person, but rather already done “on behalf” of that person and reserved for him pending his faith.

As for the rest of your post, I’ll just say that what gives motivation for the Faith is the resurrection of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain, for you are yet in your sins

And this should suffice to show that if we do not rise from our sins, then our faith in His blood avails not. If we believe, then let us apply the merit of His blood to our hardened hearts and live the justice and righteousness to which we are called.

hurst

 

[sandusky]

Hurst:

In order for that to be true, you would have to define “in Christ” very broadly. But then you are doing the eisegesis that you mentioned earlier. Or what then does it mean to “be in Christ”?

Scripture defines one in Christ as one who believes in Christ for his justification, sanctification…everything. In the Greek the word eis is generally translated as in, but, I think that it is better to leave it with its literal meaning, “into.” The one who places every hope “into” Christ, is in Christ.

Hurst:

Yes, so at the moment of baptism, one is perfectly in Christ. But due to our free will, if we give our will to something else even partially, then we are no longer perfectly in Christ. And if we sin gravely, then we are cut off.

Romans 11:22 See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Technically Hurst, nothing that the one who is truly Christ’s will ever do can separate Him from Christ (Rom 8:31-39). We are in Christ because of our choosing, but even our choosing is from God (Jn 6:44; Eph 2:8ff).

You are taking Rom 11:22 out of context. IMO every time you use scriptures you use them out of context.

Romans 11, and the analogy of the olive tree, is not about individual salvation, the olive tree illustrates the relationship between Jew and Gentile in the program of God.

The “breaking off of the branches” is the equivalent of “the fall” (Rom. 11:11), “the failure” (Rom. 11:12), and “the rejection” (Rom. 11:15). To read into this illustration the matter of the eternal destiny of the individual believer is to abuse the truth Paul was seeking to communicate.

Paul warned the Gentiles that they were obligated to Israel, and therefore they dared not boast of their new spiritual position (Rom. 11:18–21). The Gentiles entered into God’s plan because of faith, and not because of anything good they had done. Paul was discussing the Gentiles collectively, and not the individual experience of one believer or another.

It is worth noting that, according to Bible prophecy, the professing Gentile church will be “cut off” because of apostasy. First Timothy 4 and 2 Timothy 3, along with 2 Thessalonians 2, all indicate that the professing church in the last days will depart from the faith. There is no hope for the apostate church, but there is hope for apostate Israel! Why? Because of the roots of the olive tree. God will keep His promises to the patriarchs, but God will break off the Gentiles because of their unbelief.

No matter how far Israel may stray from the truth of God, the roots are still good. God is still the “God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” (Ex. 3:6; Matt. 22:23). He will keep His promises to these patriarchs.

Hurst:

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

You have taken that out of context as well. Paul is not talking about his salvation, but his care at not being disqualified as a minister of the proclamation of the Gospel; Paul knows that he cannot lose his salvation.

Hurst:

The fact is, we have to be reconciled to God before we can live in Him and Him in us. But even after being reconciled through the Blood of Jesus, we are able to forget about it, fall away from the faith, and otherwise lose our grip on salvation.

It is a sad fact that believers will, at times, forget what God has done for them, and lose their zeal for evangelism, but that does not entail the losing of one’s salvation, which is secure in Christ.

(continued)

 

[sandusky]

(cont from post #155)

Originally Posted by sandusky
One who is truly in Christ, will remain in Him forever.

Hurst:

Unscriptural. If that were so, then Christ would not need to exhort us to remain in Him. It is partially up to us. He calls and appoints us, but we must respond.

While I agree that we must respond, our response originates in God (Eph 2:8ff).

As far as a believer not remaining in Christ forever, I offer a basic definition of a believer according to Scripture:

A believer is one who is predestined, called, justified, glorified (Rom 8:31); he is caused to be born again by the will of God, to an inheritance that is imperishable, and undefiled; an inheritance that will not fade away, and that is reserved in heaven for the believer by God who also keeps the believer for that inheritance by His power (Jn 1:12-13; 1 Pet 1:3-5,); a believer has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, and will never perish, and cannot be removed from the hand of God by anyone, nor will God cast Him out (Jn 5:24; 10:28-29; 6:37). There is more, but those will suffice.

Originally Posted by sandusky
That is because one is in Christ, by the determination and calling of the Father (Rom 1:1, 6, Jn 1:12-13; Eph 1:4ff; 1 Pet 1:3, 23)

Hurst:

Unscriptural. If that were so, then those not saved were left to be in Hell apart from their own will. But God wills that all be saved.

Those verses are not only scriptural, they are scripture. No one is saved apart from God’s willing, and God does not will everyone to be saved in the sense of that being His purpose. He does desire that all would repent and be saved, but not everyone will repent, in fact, no one would repent were it not for God’s appointing him to salvation, and God’s work in his heart (Acts 13:38; 16:14; cf Eph 1:4, 11).

In spite of God’s sovereignty in salvation, those who reject Christ, and go to hell, are responsible for their final disposition (cf Lk 22:22; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28).

Hurst:

Being called does not mean being perfectly in Christ, or saved. Otherwise, why the exhortation to persevere.

The exhortation to unbelievers is “repent.” The stronger exhortations are to believers to persevere, because they are sinners, and prone to wander, and forget, as you said above. God sees fit, in His plan, to continue to exhort those He has saved to continue to pursue perfection, even though they will never attain it this side of eternity.

Hurst:

1. John 1:12-13

John 1:12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So, they have the “power to be made the sons” since they believe. Born of God. Born again in the spirit.

But they can’t already have the goal of their faith, or else it wouldn’t be faith anymore, but actual possession. For there is no faith or hope in heaven, since all know and possess God. But charity is in heaven as well as on earth.

Jesus says in Jn 5:24, that the believer “has eternal life.” Eternal life is the believer’s present, continuous possession; he has passed from death to life.

Hurst:

1. Eph 1:4ff

Ephesians 1:4 As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. 5 Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will: … 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace, 8 Which hath superabounded in us in all wisdom and prudence …

This is a wonderful passage.

Indeed, we have Redemption in Him through his blood. God has provided redemption for all, and predestined all who believe to be saved and adopted into His life.

But again, you cannot scripturally interpret “have” to mean sandusky or hurst “possesses” it. Rather, we “have access” to it, and we take hold of it by faith. We must be tried, whether our faith be sincere, and then we must persevere unto the end in order to be saved.

Sorry for the broken record, there are other passages that can be used, but this one is so clear: Jesus says in Jn 5:24, that the believer “has eternal life.” Eternal life is the believer’s present, continuous possession; he has passed from death to life.

(continued)

 

[sandusky]

(continued from post #157

Hurst:

1. 1 Pet 1:3

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Notice it says “unto a lively hope”. Hope means you don’t possess it yet. Do you hope to get something you already have?

In fact, it shows that we have received the grace of the promise of more to come. We have this enlightenment by our faith. But we still must hold onto this hope, or else lose what it promises.

A better translation is a “living Hope,” or a “hope that is alive.” The word “hope” as used by the N.T. writers means an “assured confidence.” Not “hope so,” but , “I know!”

And again: Jesus says in Jn 5:24, that the believer “has eternal life.” Eternal life is the believer’s present, continuous possession; he has passed from death to life.

The confident hope of that fact is what enables those believers whom God has graced with particularly difficult lives (as well as those He has graced with comfortable lives) to persevere; that and His gracious help in persevering.

Originally Posted by sandusky
Acts 4:12 makes it clear that is in Christ’s name, and all that His name entails, that one must be saved. That is an imperative; it is commanded to be saved in Christ’s name. If you are “doing things” to be saved, you are doing them in your name, and not in Christ’s name, and there is no other name.

Hurst:

Wait a minute here. We are called to do all things in Christ’s name, but it is us doing them in His name. It is our decision to do that. Thus there is a cooperation.

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

hurst:

For now that we have the light of faith, we must do work in that light, lest we be cast out

1 John 2:8 Again a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true both in him and in you; because the darkness is passed, and the true light now shineth. 9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother, abideth in the light, and there is no scandal in him.

John 12:35 Jesus therefore said to them: Yet a little while, the light is among you. Walk whilst you have the light, that the darkness overtake you not. And he that walketh in darkness, knoweth not whither he goeth.

Again, IMO, you do not understand what is being spoken here.

John 6:44
44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Do you understand that, Hurst? No has the ability to come to Christ, unless the Father brings him to Christ. And when the Father brings him, what does Christ promise to do on the last day?

John 6:37
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

What does Jesus say He will not do to all those the Father gives Him, and to the one who comes to Him?

John 10:28
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

What does Jesus give to the one who believes, and what will never happen to the one who believes, and what will no one be able to do to the one who believes?

(continued)

 

[sandusky]

(continued from post #157)

hurst:

Yes, a sacrifical atonement. It more than offset the evil, and is the source of all grace by which we may walk in new life. But it is the pleasing justice of His merit, not the survival of God’s just retribution for our sins.

So instead of being loyal to a hero who survived a calamity we caused, we should be sacrifically loving a savior who willingly bore our sins and offered His body and blood to be our eternal life. He is our Life!

You unwittingly accept a life of self when you think God saves you by punishing Jesus in your place. We must truly die to ourselves and live in Christ if we are to have any life at all.

Hurst, I have a neighbor who I find to epitomize the practical aspects of your theology. She is 77 years old, and has been Catholic all of her life. We have been neighbors for 23 years, and she retired shortly after I moved in next to her.

I have observed her for the past 23 years leave her home at 6:20 a.m., every day of the week, to go to Mass and receive the Eucharist.

I have asked why she does this. I expected to hear of her great love for Christ, and what He has done, but my expectation was wrong. She does this because she “is working off the temporal punishment of my sins to shorten my time spent in purgatory.” I have told her, repeatedly, that Christ paid the penalty for sin, to which she, as you, replied, “no. He paid for some, but not all; He made it ‘possible’ for one to gain heaven, if one works hard enough.”

That is living to self, Hurst. My fear is that she has worked hard enough to not go to purgatory.

 

[Pryority7]

This scriptural boxing match is apparently getting us no where. Sandusky, you’re set to believe what you want…and you’re convinced in what you believe. So are we.
We as Catholics believe that Christ did pay the penalty for our sins, and that we have been, are being and will be cleansed by His blood, both in the whole picture, individually and beyond. It’s God being intimately involved with our eternal salvation. It’s basically the same thing you believe without so much of this “legalistic, judiciary” view concerning sin. So who are you really trying to prove your points to…to us or to yourself…if it’s to yourself…don’t worry, I’m sure you reaffirmed your stance. If it’s us Catholics…you’re going to have to try alot harder than what you’ve provided to convince us. I believe in the Lord Jesus and what He did for me on the Cross. And I believe that whatever He is doing to mold me on a daily basis He will do with absolute rigor…He will not stop and even use my painful trials (temporal punishments) to continue to mold me into the image of His Son. If God is doing that to me now, He will see it through even after I die and I still have a little bit of selfishness that has stuck around. Call it “Me still paying for my sins” I call it “Me being delivered from the presence of sin”. Call it salvation by works…I call it salvation by grace. What I’m getting at is since your definition of things like “atonement”, “salvation”, “sin” and “purification” and the like are different from the Catholic view, there’s no point in going further with this. Purgatory is part of Heaven…the beginnning of Heaven. We will “know fully, even as I am fully known” (1 Corinthians 13), That knowing fully is part of our being born into Heaven when we leave this world. Your taking scripture out of context reasoning will not take away that truth, no matter how hard you try.
So please…try…