Purgatory and 1 Corinthians 15:52

[Pryority7]

Once again, I admit that I’m not well versed in breaking down scripture as well as the pros. Thank God we don’t go to Heaven via passing a theology exam. We go to heaven through Christ. Some of us are just too puffed up to believe that they know the exact way as to how this going to heaven is played out.

 

[ncgolf]

What I still do not understand is how either Bene or Sandusky are convinced they believe correctly. Do you ever worry that one of your theological beliefs is wrong and that you are believing the wrong thing. I know you believe in Christ and believe Christ’s word but what if at death you find out that your belief was in error … what happens? What if you are told that a neighbor was indeed telling you the truth but you did not listen … what happens?

In your world it really does not matter what you believe as long as you believe … so to me it follows that you cannot question anyone else’s belief for they too are following their own belief in Christ. It all comes back to authority in the end.

But for Catholics it is different … we believe that Christ speaks today through the Church that He established just as He would speak if on earth … no difference. There really can be only 1 truth which means others are false. I guess you have to find out where you can find the Truth.

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

I have observed her for the past 23 years leave her home at 6:20 a.m., every day of the week, to go to Mass and receive the Eucharist.

I have asked why she does this. I expected to hear of her great love for Christ, and what He has done, but my expectation was wrong. She does this because she “is working off the temporal punishment of my sins to shorten my time spent in purgatory.”

Well, I admit that is not the best answer, but it is certainly valid.

sandusky:

I have told her, repeatedly, that Christ paid the penalty for sin, to which she, as you, replied, “no. He paid for some, but not all; He made it ‘possible’ for one to gain heaven, if one works hard enough.”

It is true we must work our way to heaven. It is just that we cannot open heaven. Christ opened heaven for us, and we must put forth the effort to enter it by cooperating with the grace of God and obeying His commandment to love others as He has loved us. We must do the work of denying ourselves, taking up our cross, and following Him.

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

It is hard, not easy, to do that.

hurst

 

[bene7]

hurst:

As I said before, it is built upon Christ and the work of His Cross. Does a house complicate and exclude the foundation? Do you not rather make void the purpose of the foundation by neglecting or discounting the building of the house upon it?

The doctrine of “Purgatory” is not built upon the foundation of Christ and His finished work on the cross. The doctrine actually discounts what He’s accomplished on the cross. In fact, the Catholic notion that men must “cooperate” with God in this life in hopes to be saved in the next, is not built “upon” Christ, the foundation of our salvation, but ADDS to it. When you teach doctrines that express “Christ plus…,” or “faith plus…,” you’re not building upon the foundation, but adding to it. Paul said to the Corinthians:

“No man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Not Jesus Christ plus… (you fill in the blank).

Agreed. And we must live in that blod and do good works in that blood and let that blood flow in us in order for us to reach the completion of our salvation in the charity of Christ and the fullness of His life in the glory of Heaven.

Still trying to add to the foundation Paul laid.

Did you miss the word “able”? Being able to save forever does not mean He already saved forever. And if He had already saved forever, then He wouldn’t still be making intercession. Rather, for those who apply for it, He is able to save forever. But we must apply for it our whole life unto the end, in order to finally obtain it.

Did you miss the word “is”? Not “might” be able, but “is” able. He “is” able because (based on the context) as the believer’s High Priest in heaven He abides forever and His priesthood is permanent (Heb. 7:24).

The writer is making a declarative statement here, Hurst. Christ’s ministry of prayer began even before He left the earth (Jn. 17:1-26), and is carried on in behalf of the saved (not the unsaved, Jn. 17:9) in heaven as long as those who have bought with the price of His shed blood are still “in the world.” The true believer is “in” the world but is no longer considered by God to be “of” the world. A very important distinction (Jn. 15:19). Christ’s High Priestly, intercessory work in heaven has to do with the weakness, the helplessness and immaturity of those who are His still on earth - things over which they have no control. He knows their limitations as well as the power and strategy of the evil one with whom they have to contend daily. As High Priest he is the Shepherd and Bishop of their souls. As demonstrated by His care for Peter in Luke 22:31-32.

Hust, through the work of Christ on the cross the true believer is saved by GRACE (Eph. 2:8-9). By the heavenly, High Priestly, intercessory work of the resurrected Christ, the true believer is kept by that same GRACE. Believers are, from the moment of salvation, “under grace.” The true believer is saved “unto” good works (Eph. 2:10), but never saved or kept “by” those good works. It’s all of Christ, the Foundation Paul laid, once for all. Purgatory attempts to add to that Foundation, and the “works” one does based on that addition are worthless, and in the end will be burnt up (provided the laborer has come into true faith and is saved in the first place).

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

]
I do not consider myself as meriting forgiveness, for I cannot save myself. But I cannot be saved without myself, either. I must go forth and do good works now. I must strive by good works to avoid sin and ensure my salvation.

The fact that you say you must strive BY good works and avoid sin in order to ensure your salvation reveals you ARE attempting to merit your own salvation. And the fact that you believe you must “suffer” now and in the life hereafter reveals that you believe you can merit the cleansing of “residual sins.” Doctrines which “make void” or circumvent the cross.

Charles Hodge in his third volume of Systematic Theology reveals the history of the extra-biblical doctrine of purgatory. He starts out by saying that to the ancient Persians fire was sacred. It was even worshiped as the symbol of divinity; and elemental fire was for the soul the great means of purification. With ancient Greek stoics fire was the elementary principle and soul of the world, and they believed in a renovation of the world through fire.

“Purgatory” is not taught in the divinely inspired Scriptures, but finds its origin in the ancient, pagan mind:

Hodge writes:

"The idea of purification by fire after death became familiar to the Greek mind, and was taken up by Plato, and wrought into his philosophy; he taught that no one could become perfectly happy after death, until he had expiated his sins; and that if they were too great for expiation, his suffering would have no end. That this doctrine passed from the Gentiles to the Jews may be inferred not only from the fact already mentioned that Judas Maccabeus sent money to Jerusalem to pay for sacrifices to be offered for the sins of the dead; but also from the doctrines of the Rabbins, that children, by means of sin offering, could alleviate the sufferings of their deceased parents. Some of them also taught that all souls, not perfectly holy, must wash themselves in the fire-river of Gehenna; that the just would therein be soon cleansed, but the wicked retained in torment indefinitely. It was in this general form of a purification by fire after death that the doctrine was adopted by some of the fathers. Nothing more than this can be proved from the writings of the first three centuries. Origen taught first that this purification was to take place after the resurrection…This doctrine was condemned in the Church; but, as Flugge says: “This anathema was less effective because the eastern views on this subject differed so much from the western or Church doctrine. The former, or Origen’s doctrine, contemplated the purification of the greatest sinners and of the devil himself; the Latin Church thought only of believers justified by the blood of Christ. The one supposed the sinner to purify himself from his desire of evil; the other, asserted expiation by suffering. According to the former, the sinner was healed and strengthened; according to the latter, divine justice must be satisfied. It must not be inferred from this, that the Greek Church adopted Origen’s view as to “the restoration of all things;” but it nevertheless maintained until a much later period the views by which it was distinguished from the Latins on the doctrine of the future state.”

He goes on to state that it was in the western Church that the development of the doctrine took place. Augustine gave it form, but it was Gregory the Great who consolidated the vague and conflicting views circulating through the Church. And from that time onward through the Middle Ages, purgatory became one of the prominent and constantly reiterated topics of public instruction. It took hold of the popular mind. Even the clergy vied with each other in their zeal in its inculcation; and in the marvels which they related of spiritual apparitions in support of the doctrine. They contended fiercely for the honor of superior power of redeeming souls from purgatorial pains. The Franciscans even claimed that the head of their order descended annually into purgatory, and delivered all the brotherhood who were there detained.

So you see, this doctrine infiltrated the Church. It did not originate from the teachings found in either of the Old or New Testament Scriptures (i.e., God’s Word), or the teachings of the Apostles themselves. Men who hold to this extra-biblical doctrine constantly attempt to read it INTO various Biblical passages, but one would be hard pressed, indeed, to ever get such a doctrine OUT OF those passages. It must be forced UPON them and the text itself lifted out of its context.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Pillar_of_Cloud]

bene7:

The fact that you say you must strive BY good works and avoid sin in order to ensure your salvation reveals you ARE attempting to merit your own salvation. And the fact that you believe you must “suffer” now and in the life hereafter reveals that you believe you can merit the cleansing of “residual sins.” Doctrines which “make void” or circumvent the cross.

…

So you see, this doctrine infiltrated the Church. It did not originate from the teachings found in either of the Old or New Testament Scriptures (i.e., God’s Word), or the teachings of the Apostles themselves. Men who hold to this extra-biblical doctrine constantly attempt to read it INTO various Biblical passages, but one would be hard pressed, indeed, to ever get such a doctrine OUT OF those passages. It must be forced UPON them and the text itself lifted out of its context.

Blessings,
Bene

Sorry I haven’t responded to your response post yet, but its on my to-do list…but I had to get my comments in here for now.

Of course, Purgetory was developed alongside other doctrines such as the Hypostatic Union of Christ (fully God and Fully Man), The Trinity, the CANON of Scripture, and more. But, without fault, extra-biblical doctrines HAVE infiltrated the Church (or rather, tried to and were condemned as heresy for the reality of what they were), such as sola-scriptora, OSAS, the Eucharist as “spiritual” only, a modified canon of Scripture, among others.

I take it by your lack of response that you couldn’t find any counter to my proof of redemptive suffering, yet you simply decide to turn a blind eye to it and move on attacking Purgetory. Its existance is quite logical once one has figured that much out. As for good works and avoiding sin, we only do so cause Sacred Scripture says to (c.f. Mt. 17:18-23, 1 Pt. 4:8, James 4:17)

Yet, you still insist that Purgetory is nothing but punishment, that we think we EARN salvation through suffering? Listen, the holy souls in Purgetory suffer out of love, and God “punishes” them to purify them so they can be with Him.

I don’t know where you stand on Luther, but I think the popular Protestant theology with Redemption is that the sacrifice of Christ merely “covered” our sins, like “white snow over a dung heap.” This implies that we are still dung heaps when we enter Heaven. There is NO WAY this can be true, since we know only pure things exist in Heaven. Purgetory is an ontological purification so that we can be pure enough to enter Heaven.

Jesus Christ suffered and died for our salvation and forgiveness of sins. Fine. We are forgiven “because” of the Cross (still can’t figure out why that is different than “by,” but now I’m mixing my posts). Sins are forgiven. If they weren’t, we’d inevitably end up in Hell (or at least Abraham’s bossom, I suppose, or limbo, or some other non-Heaven state). Without the Cross, no amount of suffering in the world would save anyone. You will find no orthadox Catholic who says otherwise. The only reason our sufferings mean ANYTHING is BECAUSE OF THE CROSS!! Without it, our sufferings, our pains, or prayers…would truly be void. Everything we believe we believe only because of the perfect sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. It is our first cause, our foundation, our love. It is the reason we hang Crucifixes on our walls, because we are nothing without it. But I state the obvious…

I wonder…do you see our forgiveness because of the Cross as making us pure in the eyes of God? I don’t mean that our sins are covered, but that we are fully purified once we “accept Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior,” as the popular saying goes? Before I proceed further, I’d like to hear your answer to that one so that I know where you are coming from…

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

You are taking Rom 11:22 out of context. IMO every time you use scriptures you use them out of context.

Romans 11, and the analogy of the olive tree, is not about individual salvation, the olive tree illustrates the relationship between Jew and Gentile in the program of God.

The “breaking off of the branches” is the equivalent of “the fall” (Rom. 11:11), “the failure” (Rom. 11:12), and “the rejection” (Rom. 11:15). To read into this illustration the matter of the eternal destiny of the individual believer is to abuse the truth Paul was seeking to communicate.

It doesn’t matter for the point I was seeking to make. Whether individually, collectively, or otherwise, the point is that it is not guaranteed all the time in all cases, etc.

sandusky:

Paul warned the Gentiles that they were obligated to Israel, and therefore they dared not boast of their new spiritual position (Rom. 11:18–21). The Gentiles entered into God’s plan because of faith, and not because of anything good they had done. Paul was discussing the Gentiles collectively, and not the individual experience of one believer or another.

Again, my point was made. By the way, making an act of faith is doing something good.

sandusky:

No matter how far Israel may stray from the truth of God, the roots are still good. God is still the “God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob” (Ex. 3:6; Matt. 22:23). He will keep His promises to these patriarchs.

I am not so sure there are anymore promises left to keep, since the promise of the redeemer has already been fulfilled. The true children are those who had faith and did the works of Abraham.

sandusky:

You have taken that out of context as well. Paul is not talking about his salvation, but his care at not being disqualified as a minister of the proclamation of the Gospel;

I don’t think I have taken it out of context.

Your point about being disqualified is strange, because he was in charge of so much. If anything, he would keep the apostleship, but suffer in the loss of his work - something he alluded to at times.

sandusky:

Paul knows that he cannot lose his salvation.

I find no solid basis for such an assertion.

Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended. But one thing I do: forgetting the things that are behind, and stretching forth myself to those that are before

1 Corinthians 4:4 For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord.

sandusky:

It is a sad fact that believers will, at times, forget what God has done for them, and lose their zeal for evangelism, but that does not entail the losing of one’s salvation, which is secure in Christ.

How can you be so sure?

Apocalypse 3:16 But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.… 19 Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance.

Also, it is not merely about evangelism, but about charity. And charity is the true indication of whether we are “in Christ” or not. There is much scripture to support this. In fact, heaven will consist of this charity.

But since you bypass the whole issue by tautologically saying that those who are saved will be saved, I am not sure whether you care about this point.

You seem to “assure” your salvation by make-believe, since you believe it is based on simply believing. I have heard of people hoping against hope, but you seem to be believing against belief

Let me remind you that of faith, hope, and charity, the greatest is charity.

hurst

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

As far as a believer not remaining in Christ forever, I offer a basic definition of a believer according to Scripture:

A believer is one who is predestined, called, justified, glorified (Rom 8:31);

You are taking this passage out of context. Do you really think you are already glorified?

Romans 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. 30 And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.

A better take on it is that God is speaking of the patriarchs of the Old Testament whom He foreknew, predestined, called, justified, and now already glorified. I think you know this fits those such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Noah, Daniel, and others, for it uses past tense.

It could not have been talking about us today unless you believe we already existed and were glorified in the past, which is absurd. But perhaps you see it having all occurred in God’s foreknowledge. That is possible, but then it does not follow that God foreknew everyone in that manner. For it says He predestined those He foreknew. So it seems either everyone is predestined, or else He did not foreknow everyone. But neither of those possibilities make sense. A third possibility is that Paul is talking about particular ones who were foreknown to persevere, and that through them everyone else would benefit. I think this makes the most sense. The patriarchs fit this concept well.

As for Rom 8:31,

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who is against us?

That cannot be taken to mean no one is against us, but rather no one else can be successful against us. For we do have an enemy:

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour.

Also, though no one can take us out of God’s Hand, yet we can remove ourselves, by losing faith and pursuing things of the world or flesh or devil. We must actually do something about this to remain in Christ and actually be sanctified.

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, to refrain yourselves from carnal desires which war against the soul

Romans 6:19 … For as you have yielded your members to serve uncleanness and iniquity, unto iniquity; so now yield your members to serve justice, unto sanctification.

Romans 8:1 There is now therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh.

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.

That last verse is enlightening. We have to do something, by the Spirit. It is not the Spirit doing it to us, but we cooperating with the Spirit to put the deeds of the flesh to death.

Not only that. but we can really fall from grace, unfortunately.

Galatians 5:4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace. 5 For we in spirit, by faith, wait for the hope of justice.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, 20 Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, 21 Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived, God is not mocked. 8 For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh, of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit, of the spirit shall reap life everlasting.

I can go on, but the point is that our works matter, and we are free to choose between the works of the spirit and of the flesh, and that one can fall away.

You will say God will eventually stop it, etc. But while I agree that God eternally predestines some to salvation in advance, there is no way you can legitimately hold that He eternally predestines all who believe at any one point. Otherwise many scripture passages would be a farce, and pretense in order to try to get the predestined souls to act better, or else warning lost souls that they will be lost if they don’t act better.

hurst

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

he is caused to be born again by the will of God, to an inheritance that is imperishable, and undefiled; an inheritance that will not fade away, and that is reserved in heaven for the believer by God who also keeps the believer for that inheritance by His power (Jn 1:12-13; 1 Pet 1:3-5,);

Let’s take a look:

John 1:12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

But having the power does not guarantee keeping it, nor does it guarantee or force one to use it. The following parable serves to illustrate this, and shows that one who does not serve the interests of his master will be cast out altogether.

Matthew 25:26 And his lord answering, said to him: Wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sow not, and gather where I have not strewed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have committed my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received my own with usury. 28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it to him that hath ten talents. 29 For to every one that hath shall be given, and he shall abound: but from him that hath not, that also which he seemeth to have shall be taken away. 30 And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

To be born of God ensures we will be able to see the Kingdom, but does not guarantee entering it. For it is possible to fall away by being enticed back into the world again.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery.

In other words, you can’t be born again twice. You can’t be baptized more than once. To do so is to make a mockery of Christ.

And the next one:

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 Unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that can not fade, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.

Here, God’s power that keeps us is dependent upon our faith.

We see that faith is very important. To lose faith is to lose the help of God’s power that keeps us on the path of salvation.

At its base, faith is believing God and obeying Him in that faith. And that is true justice, which also subjects the body to the spirit acting in that faithful justice. So our actions and conduct should correspond to our faith.

Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good: or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil. For by the fruit the tree is known.

hurst

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

a believer has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, and will never perish, and cannot be removed from the hand of God by anyone, nor will God cast Him out (Jn 5:24; 10:28-29; 6:37). There is more, but those will suffice.Those verses are not only scriptural, they are scripture.

True, but it is dependent on us keeping the faith and remaining and abiding in Christ of our own will. It is up to us and what we desire. It is a constant battle between desiring things of the world or flesh and things of the spirit. We do not control things of the spirit, for living in the spirit is obedience in faith. We must become like children to enter the Kingdom that we see by faith.

sandusky:

No one is saved apart from God’s willing, and God does not will everyone to be saved in the sense of that being His purpose.

But He does.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

sandusky:

He does desire that all would repent and be saved, but not everyone will repent

Nor will all persevere automatically.

sandusky:

, in fact, no one would repent were it not for God’s appointing him to salvation, and God’s work in his heart (Acts 13:38; 16:14; cf Eph 1:4, 11).

Let’s see:

Acts 13:38 Be it known therefore to you, men, brethren, that through him forgiveness of sins is preached to you: and from all the things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. 39 In him every one that believeth, is justified.

Being declared is hardly an appointment. Also, believing does not justify by itself, but only “In him”.

The next verse is perhaps something you think shows that God does the work:

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, one that worshipped God, did hear: whose heart the Lord opened to attend to those things which were said by Paul.

But notice that He did so for someone who already worshipped God. She was inspired to listen to Paul. It was related to her faith.

The next passage discusses predestinating the elect.

Ephesians 1:4 As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. … 11 In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things according to the counsel of his will.

What makes you think he is talking about eternal predestination of the individual believers? Rather, He more likely preordained that those who believe - whoever they might be - would be destined to be conformed to the image of His Son. That is destining a category of people, but the people determine of themselves whether to be in that category, that is, whether to be a believer. Secondly, they choose whether or how long to stay in that category. Those who persevere shall be saved for the purpose.

The verses afterwards are interesting:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom you also, after you had heard the word of truth, (the gospel of your salvation); in whom also believing, you were signed with the holy Spirit of promise, 14 Who is the pledge of our inheritance, unto the redemption of acquisition, unto the praise of his glory.

He switches from “we” to “you”, what could that mean?

Also, He talks about the Holy Spirit of “promise” which is a “pledge”. That is another indication that it has not yet been “obtained”, and is dependent on our perseverance.

hurst

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

God sees fit, in His plan, to continue to exhort those He has saved to continue to pursue perfection, even though they will never attain it this side of eternity.

You apparently believe “saved” = eternal predestination, where once someone believes properly, God will ensure they make it all the way. But while God may foresee who will make it, He does not reveal that fact to all. Nor does it take away from their free will.

Nor is it scriptural to say all believers will make it, unfortunately.

Matthew 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

You think He says that tautologically? Or perhaps as part of His ensuring it?

sandusky:

Jesus says in Jn 5:24, that the believer “has eternal life.” Eternal life is the believer’s present, continuous possession; he has passed from death to life.

That verse says:

John 5:24 Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life.

To avoid taking this out of the context of scripture,

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: 27 And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man. 28 Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. 29 And **they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. **

Two points. One, the Father and the Son have life in himself, so the life that we “have” is only insofar as we are united to Christ, which in this life is by faith. This is supported by Christ telling us to “abide” in Him and bear fruit. This is all dependent upon our keeping the faith and desiring to be united to Christ.

Secondly, the life we are given will not result in glory for all, but only for those who merit it by the good works they did in faith.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed.

John 6:40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day.

The resurrection will indeed occur for many, but not all will be raised to glory. A certain number will be resurrected to judgment.

sandusky:

Sorry for the broken record, there are other passages that can be used, but this one is so clear: Jesus says in Jn 5:24, that the believer “has eternal life.” Eternal life is the believer’s present, continuous possession; he has passed from death to life.

It is also clear that you are ignoring that even here we only “have” it by faith, in hope. Support from other passages:

Galatians 5:5 For we in spirit, by faith, wait for the hope of justice.

Colossians 1:23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard

Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access through faith into this grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God.

Colossians 1:5 For the hope that is laid up for you in heaven, which you have heard in the word of the truth of the gospel

The fact is, we have received eternal life by faith, but all can be lost if we lose faith or otherwise do not use it.

hurst

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

Originally Posted by Hurst
5. 1 Pet 1:3

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Notice it says “unto a lively hope”. Hope means you don’t possess it yet. Do you hope to get something you already have?

A better translation is a “living Hope,” or a “hope that is alive.” The word “hope” as used by the N.T. writers means an “assured confidence.” Not “hope so,” but , “I know!”

But it is known only by faith, and not by actual possession.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen, is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? 25 But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience.

This directly shows that salvation is “known” about by faith, and hoped for with patience. We do not “have” it yet, even though we may be able to occasionally sense its effects. We have it in the sense that we have the beginning of it. Yet so, only if we persevere in suffering with Him.

Romans 8:17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ: yet so, if we hold the beginning of his substance firm unto the end.

sandusky:

And again: Jesus says in Jn 5:24, that the believer “has eternal life.” Eternal life is the believer’s present, continuous possession; he has passed from death to life.

The confident hope of that fact is what enables those believers whom God has graced with particularly difficult lives (as well as those He has graced with comfortable lives) to persevere; that and His gracious help in persevering.

They may have eternal life, but it needs to be developed or else they will be judged at the resurrection and cast out, and the punishment of one who once had the hope of eternal life but did not obey in faith, is worse than one who never knew it to begin with.

sandusky:

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

And we must cooperate with the work God is calling us to do.

sandusky:

Again, IMO, you do not understand what is being spoken here.

John 6:44
44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Do you understand that, Hurst? No has the ability to come to Christ, unless the Father brings him to Christ. And when the Father brings him, what does Christ promise to do on the last day?

Raise him up. He also will judge those who did not fulfill the good works we were called to do with the hope of eternal life we had by faith:

John 5:29 And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

hurst

 

[hurst]

sandusky:

John 6:37
37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

What does Jesus say He will not do to all those the Father gives Him, and to the one who comes to Him?

He will not cast them out. I am not disputing that about those when they come to Him. But He may very well cast them out later. That is well supported.

Matthew 5:13 You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt lose its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for nothing any more but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by men.

Matthew 25:30 And the unprofitable servant cast ye out into the exterior darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 10:33 But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

And neither will He stop us from casting ourselves out by falling away. We have free will to choose life or death

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live

And when we are judged, then will He render to us according to our works. And it will be our own fault if we are reproached, because we had the hope of eternal life and did not profit by it.

sandusky:

John 10:28
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

What does Jesus give to the one who believes, and what will never happen to the one who believes, and what will no one be able to do to the one who believes?

He gives eternal life, they will never perish, and no one can snatch them out of His hand.

Nevertheless, it is the hope of eternal life they have, and it is received and held by faith. In staying in that faith, they will not perish, nor can anyone take them out against their will.

But if they choose, they can decline from the right path, fall away from faith, and follow after the world or the flesh. Then they will have to render an account for what they did with the “talents” they were given to bring glory to the King by their good works. And if we despised the gift of the King, then we will be cast into the darkness to live forever in reproach.

Do not be deceived. God enables us to do what is right, and expects it of us at that level of ability He gives us. If we fall, He helps us if we seek it. The point, again, is to persevere in faith. This can only be done by exercising it. We must ask for our faith to be increased, lest we lose it altogether.

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said to the Lord: Increase our faith.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

The doctrine of “Purgatory” is not built upon the foundation of Christ and His finished work on the cross. The doctrine actually discounts what He’s accomplished on the cross.

It discounts only what you think He accomplished. What you think He “finished” on the cross is not what the Catholic Church teaches. You think He suffered a penalty on our behalf in order that believers be “considered” as righteous in exchange, and that God thus “treats” believers as if they are justified and perfectly in Christ, and are thus “saved” and will go straight to heaven when they die regardless of what intermediate sins they committed, since we are “covered” by the Blood.

But you are making God out to be a liar by saying He makes evil good by declaring it to be good.

The Catholic understanding is that God not only declares us to be just because of our faith, but actually and truly makes us just. And in being just, we must actually and truly live justly, and bear fruit, doing good works. He does this by giving us grace on account of Christ’s passion, so that we, being His body, may become His justice by our good works done while abiding in Him. And if we refuse to do these good works, we will be cut off and cast into the darkness.

The record of Scripture overwhelmingly supports the Catholic position, whereas only few can be made to support the other one. And those few contradict others.

bene7:

In fact, the Catholic notion that men must “cooperate” with God in this life in hopes to be saved in the next, is not built “upon” Christ, the foundation of our salvation, but ADDS to it.

Does it? James points out quite clearly that our works must cooperate with our faith:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

How much more explicit does it need to be?

bene7:

When you teach doctrines that express “Christ plus…,” or “faith plus…,” you’re not building upon the foundation, but adding to it. Paul said to the Corinthians:

“No man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

And who do you suppose laid that foundation? Let’s take a look at the verse right before that one:

1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

So Paul laid it by preaching Christ, and he expects others to build upon it.

But not only that, but He laid a separate foundation from others.

Romans 15:20 And I have so preached this gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation. 21 But as it is written: They to whom he was not spoken of, shall see, and they that have not heard shall understand.

Yet it was the same Gospel. But all he taught was not written down, and all that was written is not in the NT. It would have to be found in those it was passed on to.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

… Christ’s ministry of prayer began even before He left the earth (Jn. 17:1-26), and is carried on in behalf of the saved (not the unsaved, Jn. 17:9) in heaven as long as those who have bought with the price of His shed blood are still “in the world.”

Your position must then include the notion that someone who has “already been” purified, sanctified, and justified etc. still needs something. Your notion of being “saved” is then merely a sort of eternal predestination. You essentially are saying that once someone believes, they are irrevocably predestined for heaven in spite of themselves.

But though God could do such a thing, you have no real support that such is the case for all. The Catholic Church teaches that God does eternally predestine some for heaven, but we can’t know that about ourselves unless God divinely reveals it to us. And in fact, since history has shown that believers do apostasize and fall from the faith, there is plenty of reason to hold that not all believers are predestined.

You might say they were never “true believers”, but you are merely saying they were never predestined. It is like a tautology, in which you say only those who actually end up in heaven were the ones who were ever true believers, so we don’t ever know if they were a “true believer” until they die and end up in heaven. This, of course, gives the lie to the assertion that “we know we are saved”. The small print reads “if we actually end up in heaven”.

I don’t see how this can foster true love and devotion to Jesus Christ. A declared salvation seems likely to result only in a declared praise, but we know from Scripture that God does not like when we praise Him on our lips while being far from Him in our hearts.

Matthew 15:8 This people honoureth me with their lips: but their heart is far from me.

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

The true believer is “in” the world but is no longer considered by God to be “of” the world. A very important distinction (Jn. 15:19).

But He isn’t talking to you or to me in that passage. He is talking to the disciples after the Last Supper.

Even so, it isn’t until John 16:31 that they really believe, so how could they have been true believers beforehand.

John 16:30 Now we know that thou knowest all things, and thou needest not that any man should ask thee. By this we believe that thou camest forth from God. 31 Jesus answered them: Do you now believe?

Also, they are not sanctified yet as we read in John 17:17-19, so how could they have been true believers etc.

John 17:17 Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

It is understandable that most of the Apostles could be predestined, but it is presumptuous to take words said to them and apply them to oneself merely by reading them. It certainly causes a conflict when one reads words of St. Paul and tries to likewise apply them to oneself (e.g. issue of being already sanctified).

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

Christ’s High Priestly, intercessory work in heaven has to do with the weakness, the helplessness and immaturity of those who are His still on earth - things over which they have no control. He knows their limitations as well as the power and strategy of the evil one with whom they have to contend daily. As High Priest he is the Shepherd and Bishop of their souls. As demonstrated by His care for Peter in Luke 22:31-32.

Why are you calling Christ the Bishop of their souls. There are other bishops mentioned in scripture (1 Tim 3:1-2, Titus 1:7).

Also, notice that he tells Peter to confirm his brethren.

In any case, your approach to this overlaps the truth. For certainly we are helped in our struggles to reach our goal.

bene7:

Hust, through the work of Christ on the cross the true believer is saved by GRACE (Eph. 2:8-9). By the heavenly, High Priestly, intercessory work of the resurrected Christ, the true believer is kept by that same GRACE. Believers are, from the moment of salvation, “under grace.” The true believer is saved “unto” good works (Eph. 2:10), but never saved or kept “by” those good works. It’s all of Christ, the Foundation Paul laid, once for all.

This “saved” and “salvation” only makes sense if I substitute the term “eternally predestined for salvation”.

I think that if you are honest, then you have confused the predestined status of certain individuals in scripture with the status of your own salvation and that of all who read scripture and come to believe.

It is good to have confidence in Christ, but it is not scriptural that all believers should view themselves as eternally predestined.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

One must still have confidence apart from knowing whether they are eternally predestined or not.

bene7:

Purgatory attempts to add to that Foundation, and the “works” one does based on that addition are worthless, and in the end will be burnt up (provided the laborer has come into true faith and is saved in the first place).

The works done based on purgatory include praying for the dead in case they were not perfect saints when they died. For those in purgatory cannot help themselves and depend on the prayer of those who care. I think such an act of care for the deceased is not worthless if done with faith and love.

Have you ever wondered about the following passage:

1 Corinthians 15:29 Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them?

I do not claim to understand it, but it looks like they are doing something for the salvation of others who have died. Why would they do this?

hurst

 

[hurst]

bene7:

The fact that you say you must strive BY good works and avoid sin in order to ensure your salvation reveals you ARE attempting to merit your own salvation.

We are told to do that.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time.

There is nothing wrong with meriting something by the grace I have through faith in Jesus Christ. For it is ultimately founded upon and enabled by Him. And yes, all glory belongs to the Father thanks to Jesus Christ, but I will also be rewarded according to my cooperation.

1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

bene7:

And the fact that you believe you must “suffer” now and in the life hereafter reveals that you believe you can merit the cleansing of “residual sins.” Doctrines which “make void” or circumvent the cross.

This suffering is only meritorious in this life, and only when I do it willingly and with the grace I have from faith in Jesus Christ. But I can also pray for His merits to be applied to me directly. But we are to take part in the suffering as we are able; it is part of our growing in holiness. We can also suffer for others, as Paul did:

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church

The sufferings in the next life are of no merit. We must endure them until someone else merits to cleanse us by their sufferings and charity. This could include them praying for the merits of Christ to be applied to us. It is often an occasion for the faithful to grow in holiness and charity by their voluntary suffering on our behalf.

The “suffering” can be prayers, almsgivings, and fastings. It is especially accepting the trials of daily life with patience and resignation. How can any of this be bad, providing it is done with faith?

We are called to suffer:

Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Romans 8:17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given for Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.

bene7:

Charles Hodge in his third volume of Systematic Theology reveals the history of the extra-biblical doctrine of purgatory.

Thanks for the quote, it was quite interesting, and made sense.

However, just because the notion was contemplated by various pagans does not mean that it is false, nor that they actually originated it. The pagans also were conscious of the value of a prophesied Virgin, and included her in their worship cermonies. The same holds for God becoming man and other basic truths. Just because they were distorted by various pagans does not make it false. It just means God revealed something early that got distorted by them somehow. It actually serves to strengthen it somewhat.

Even today there are those who have come back from the dead or near death and tell of purgatory. One of these is Sondra Abrahams.

bene7:

So you see, this doctrine infiltrated the Church. It did not originate from the teachings found in either of the Old or New Testament Scriptures (i.e., God’s Word), or the teachings of the Apostles themselves.

You cannot say that about the apostles with certainty. In any case, the Church does not rely on only the Bible to determine what to teach. The Bible itself was only given form because of heresies regarding what constituted valid sources.

bene7:

Men who hold to this extra-biblical doctrine constantly attempt to read it INTO various Biblical passages, but one would be hard pressed, indeed, to ever get such a doctrine OUT OF those passages.

If one doesn’t know what a circle is, then they cannot get a circle out of a set of three points, either. The Bible is just a set of points, and if you don’t already have the faith, then you will only get a polygon.

Anyone who relies only on scripture has no right to dictate what the faith totally consists of.

The Church teaches that Purgatory is part of the divinely revealed faith. That it had developed over time does not prove it was not revealed by God. And nothing in scripture refutes it, but rather indirectly supports it.

hurst

 

[bene7]

ncgolf:

What I still do not understand is how either Bene or Sandusky are convinced they believe correctly. Do you ever worry that one of your theological beliefs is wrong and that you are believing the wrong thing. I know you believe in Christ and believe Christ’s word but what if at death you find out that your belief was in error … what happens? What if you are told that a neighbor was indeed telling you the truth but you did not listen … what happens?

In your world it really does not matter what you believe as long as you believe …

“In my world” (as you put it) it matters more in Whom I’ve believed than in “what” I’ve believed. “What” I believe is based on what is divinely revealed concerning the One in whom I’ve believed.

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness” (Rom. 4:4-5).

It’s a faith that goes all the way back to Abraham:

“Then he believed* in * the Lord; and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (Gen. 15:6).

"For this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (as it is written, “A father of many nations have I made you”) in the sight of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist (Rom. 4:16-17).

What if believing in one’s church, rather than “in Him,” or believing in the words of men, rather than in God’s concerning the cross and salvation, is not actually true faith? What if not believing in the full “substitutionary” aspect of the cross of Christ is actually no faith at all? Then, I ask you, “what happens?”

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Pryority7]

To believe in the Church is to believe Him. It’s the same thing. We are a family.