Kudos. A completely cogent explanation presented with perfect lucidity, as usual. You have a great gift.I would very strongly suggest that you contact The Bible Christian Society and get their FREE CD on The Rapture and the Bible in which John Martignoni talks about just this thing. The fact is that this passage does tie in with the end times passages.
Let’s have a look at it for context:
50: I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51: Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
53: For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.
54: When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55: “O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?”
56: The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
57: But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58: Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain. (Emphasis mine)
Now the key to the answer to their assertion is in the parts I have bolded above. What exactly does it say? “at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable,” Now, is there any other verse that clarifies when this happens (We Catholics should find this one easy because the answer is in one of our favorite passages of the New Testament…John 6.)
John 6:38: For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me;
39: and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day.
40: For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
41: The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”
42: They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say,I have come down from heaven'?" 43: Jesus answered them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44: No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up **at the last day.** 45: It is written in the prophets,And they shall all be taught by God.’ Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.
46: Not that any one has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father.
47: Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
48: I am the bread of life.
49: Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50: This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
51: I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52: The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53: So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54: he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
When does Jesus plainly say that the resurrection of the dead comes about? (Hint: If ya can’t find it up there in all those repetitions of bolded texts [again for my own emphasis] then you’ll be easy pickin’s for non-Catholic evangelism.)
BTW, that passage has nothing whatever to do with the condition of one’s soul…it’s about the resurrection of the physical bodies of believers.
Context is EVERYTHING.
Pax tecum my friend!
This answers a lot of questions. You and Sandusky debate with us on a lot of subjects (Eucharist, purgatory) and I could never quite understand how people could get so far apart … especially since we both believe in Jesus. We are both followers of Jesus. One of our faiths cannot be true or one must be an untruth or a partial truth. So you find your truth in your interpretation of Scripture. You do not trust men but a man, yourself.
Amen!
However, we must show our faith in that by obedience, which means doing works of faith in gratitude.
Yes, but belief has to be manifested by what one does. Do not forget these passages:
Of course we can’t get into this or we’ll be off topic. But both Sandusky and I have gone through this extensively on another thread.
He is saved “unto” good works, tis true (Eph. 2:10), but those good works can neither save or justify. Abraham demonstrated his faith “in the Lord” in Gen. 22 with the willingness to offer up his only son, but he was reckoned righteous, once and for all, back in Gen. 15:6 when, at that time, he believed “in the Lord.”
While it is not true that there is no conflict between the doctrine of Purgatory and the finished work of Christ, it is true that clear thinkers have problems with “implied doctrines.” If one truly understands what Christ did on the cross, then one sees that there is no need for purgatory, implied, or otherwise.
Had you been following this thread, you would have known that I have already dealt with that passage. In short, Matthew is emphatically stating that there is no forgiveness for blaspheming the H.S., as supported by the parallel passage in Mark 3:
You have noticed this too? I thought it was only me. It really is disheartening.
Understood. So let’s keep it close to the issue of Purgatory.
That event in 15:6 was not decisive, though. Otherwise, why did God test him?
And what happens if you don’t do those works? That is the point I am making.
To say “once and for all” is neither in scripture, nor supported by scripture, for the very fact that God tested him in Genesis 22.
If you believe, then you must walk by that belief perfectly. If you are not perfect, then either you don’t truly believe, or else your theology is false.
But Abraham did not go to heaven when he died, because heaven wasn’t open yet. So he had to be held in waiting. This is “Abraham’s bosom” where the just waited for Christ.
The sacrifice was done once for all, but the sins did not disappear in all subjects instantaneously. How could they? For many were not even born yet.
You say that all debates lead to authority, and you say that I don’t have it, but you have not told me what it is. What is the ultimate authority?
You accuse me of “creating a doctrine,” but you have not told me what doctrine I am creating. What is the doctrine that I am creating?
IMHO, it is the scripture that protests against you, not me. I am only holding up the truth to you, which is God’s word (Jn 17:17), why do you protest that?
That is your opinion, and it is, IMHO, completely off-base, and incredibly prideful of you to make such statements.
IMHO, you need to get the plank out of your own eye.
Again, IMHO, incredibly prideful; you should heed your own advice.
I don’t believe in luck; it is, IMHO, akin to unbelief.
Again, as I have abundantly shown, your concept of “finished work of Christ” is not scriptural, because it contradicts many scripture passages. You think it means God saves us by treating us as if we had the righteousness of Christ, and that we are not allowed to think that anything we do matters, either for good or ill.
Implied in scripture, but explicit in the teaching of the Church for centuries.
Perhaps you should consider that your own belief is a tradition. But while there is no contradiction in scripture to the concept of purgatory, yet there is plenty of contradiction to your understanding of what Christ did on the cross.
I know you brought that up, and I responded to it in post #121 by saying one does not exclude the other. I also gave other scriptural support for purgatory.
It does mention it, though:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.Hurst, you obviously have not proven anything to me, or I would be in agreement with you. What you have done, IMHO, is “think” that you proven something, but you haven’t proven anything to me.
You keep telling me that we must do “penance.” Obviously you are using the Douay-Rheims translation which is, IMHO, inferior. It is a translation from the Latin, IOW, a translation of a translation, and it is accepted that the translators mistranslated the Greek word for “repentance,” as “penance,” and the Greek word for “declare righteous,” as “make righteous.” Repentance, and penance are two different things.
I completely reject that I have anything to do with salvation, but believe.
Paul is simply saying that the world hates Christ, and He is no longer physically here, so they take out their hatred on those who profess Him. That is all Paul is saying.
Hurst, it is my opinion that you misunderstand the scriptures.
I understand that, Hurst, and I disagree with the explicit teaching of the RCC regarding purgatory.
My understanding is the written tradition of the Lord’s apostles; it is the apostolic understanding and proclamation of the sufficiency of Christ.
I never said works of faith don’t count; what I said is works of faith don’t save—big difference.
Yes, here is what you offered:
The 2 Maccabees is about prayers for the dead, and, I think, it says more than you want it to in that it also offers silver for those who died in mortal sin (the sin of idolatry), that there mortal sin may be forgiven them; that is against your doctrine that says that one who dies in mortal sin goes to hell.
By “we,” you mean Catholics, because I don’t believer that at all. Nor do I believe that there will be any sins forgiven in the age to come. Again, there is absolutely no scriptural teaching to that effect. The Matthew passage, as I have shown, is a figure of speech used to emphatically state that the sin of blasphemy against the H.S. will never be forgiven (cf Mk 3:29). That is all that passage is saying.