Purgatory and 1 Corinthians 15:52

[Sean_Boyle]

When bene and sandusky disagree on theology and their personal interpertation of the holy scripture passage, who is right if both are lead by the same holy spirit to that interpertation? Is one more led by the holy spirit than the other?

Who is right if you disagree with your pastor/teacher/elder at your church. Are you are listening to sermons and trying to make their understanding of a passage or verse in the bible dovetail with your own right? (it’s not like you go to church to read the bible in silence.) Where you wrong before the semon or just not fully right while being lead by the holy spirit.

Why do you go to church service if you are already saved? You can read the bible for yourself at home. Paising God must serve no purpose if you are already saved. Evangelizing must serve no purpose. It’s not like you’ll loose your salvation according to you and your interpertation of the bible if you don’t do either.

If your saved, why not be a couch-potato christian, and wait for your reward?

 

[sandusky]

Sean Boyle:

When bene and sandusky disagree on theology and their personal interpertation of the holy scripture passage, who is right if both are lead by the same holy spirit to that interpertation? Is one more led by the holy spirit than the other?

Who is right if you disagree with your pastor/teacher/elder at your church. Are you are listening to sermons and trying to make their understanding of a passage or verse in the bible dovetail with your own right? (it’s not like you go to church to read the bible in silence.) Where you wrong before the semon or just not fully right while being lead by the holy spirit.

Sean, you have set up a false dilemma.

You seem to think that there is no such problem in the RCC, but you are mistaken.

Here is one quote from a Catholic on another thread who is trying to understand the teachings of the Magisterium . He is having a great deal of difficulty understanding the Catholic teaching.

Exactly. So how are we different from Protestants in this regard? Protestants all have different views of what the Scriptures say. Catholics have different views of what the Magisterium says. We say we have a Magisterium to interpret Scripture, but who do we have to interpret the Magisterium? The Magisterium? That is the same as a Protestant saying that Scripture interprets itself.

Disagreements are part of life.

There is nothing wrong with Disagreements so long as there is unity on the core truths. That is iron sharpening iron (Pro 27:17). Bene is showing that there is disagreement between us on core issues. That is why I resist ecumenism. Unity at the expense of truth is compromise.

As far as Bene and I disagreeing, I’ve yet to disagree with anything that Bene has written, neither have I questioned anything that he has written. We have the same understanding.

Bene’s answers are clear, concise, and demonstrate that he takes seriously Paul’s admonition in 2 Tim 2:15.

We are like-minded.

 

[Pryority7]

Ben and Sandusky, you better be careful. Your apparent Anti-Catholic sediments are not appreciated. I’ve seen a lot of patience and tolerance to explain to you why we believe what we believe in a spirit of patience…maybe I need some work in that, but if you really cared about what truth was, you’d do some honest research and stop condemning our beliefs as being pagan and the such…that’ s simply not right.

 

[bene7]

Pryority7:

So basically you can sin the worst sin, and yet still be saved because you’re hiding behind “Christ’s cloak of righeousness”

First of all your comment about sinning the “worst sin” and still be saved is rooted in unbelief. Not believing that Christ died even for the “worst” of sins. True “Christianity” is not about sin. The issue of sin belongs to Christ and the cross. True Christianity actually begins with the resurrection of Christ. True Christians are those who have died and have been “made alive” together with Christ, having been raised to “new life” in Him.“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus, in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:4-7).I’m not hiding behind any “cloak” of righteousness, I am no longer “in Adam,” but “in Christ” made righteous (Rom. 5:19). True Christianity isn’t about “dying to sin,” or “dying to self,” but “knowing” (Rom. 6:6) that my “old self” was crucified with Christ and my relationship “to sin” is that of Christ’s, dead to it. This is what Paul means to “walk by faith.” These truths are addressed to faith:“For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace” (Rom. 6:10-14)You see, Pryority, true Christianity is about the true believer’s new identity “in Christ,” having been “made alive” in/with Him. It’s not a religion, it’s a vital, living relationship with God knowing who he is now “in Christ.” Being “in Christ” I am as righteous as Christ, now and for all eternity.“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor. 5:21).

Of course not. He died to sin and for our sins just as you have said, as well as we have, that is those who seek Him and accept Him.

Actually, it’s those who “believe” in Him. Not a religious belief cloaked in rituals and ceremonies, but belief in who He is and what He’s actually done on their behalf, once and for all.

Scripture is clear that nothing unclean can enter Heaven (Rev 21).

Yes, and that’s why Paul says:“Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come” (2 Cor. 5:17).And that’s why I asked you, Pry, “did Christ take our sins back to heaven with Him?” And you correctly answered no. It was here on earth that He made “purification of sins” through His death, and then made alive and ascended (bodily) back to heaven (Heb. 1:3).

Who I am “in Christ” now, is who I am “in Christ” forever. As Paul says, Christianity is about being a “new creation.” I, a new creation in Christ BELONG in heaven with Christ and with my Father, forever. This is true Christian faith. This is true Christianity. Anything less is just religion.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Sean_Boyle]

How in the world do you get those interpertation from the passage that you quoted…

Your making stuff up, surely. The passages that you sight breakdown to the interpertation that you listed.? How? It’s like your trying to go from point A to point B by not moving. Then saying “see there is proof” point B is over there.

Are you guaranteed salvation by God’s grace? Faith alone can not guarantee salvation or the bible would say so. Where does scripture show the amount of God’s grace needed to surpass the final judgement automatically, here on earth? Is it faith alone?
Will the final judgement at the end of times pass over you? Or will all be judged as scripture says? Why would you be judged if you are already saved?

So there is no sin in your life? Yet you saying your not perfect, you still sin, but God doesn’t reconize the sin anymore. Is that like painting an old house so it looks newer? It’s still an old house. Can’t change that.

For the record… Being a true christian is living a life according to the teachings of Christ. Faith alone wasn’t one of those teachings according to scriptures.

What about the pagan traditions that you observe from the earlier post? Do some Christian Traditions have merit with God?

 

[bene7]

Sean Boyle:

How in the world do you get those interpertation from the passage that you quoted…

By reading them.

Your making stuff up, surely. The passages that you sight breakdown to the interpertation that you listed.? How?

By reading them.

Are you guaranteed salvation by God’s grace? Faith alone can not guarantee salvation or the bible would say so.

“For BY GRACE you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR (not by) good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8-10)

Where does scripture show the amount of God’s grace needed to surpass the final judgement automatically, here on earth? Is it faith alone?

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life" (John 5:24)Now the Bible says that three witnesses are required. So far I quoted Paul and Jesus Himself. So here’s what John has to say:“And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son” (1 Jn. 5:11).

“And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life” (1 Jn. 5:20)

Will the final judgement at the end of times pass over you?

Most assuredly!! As sure as I have been made alive “in Christ.”

Or will all be judged as scripture says?

As you see from my quotes above, not ALL will be judged at that time. Look at what Scripture says about that “Last Judgment”:“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books (plural) were opened; and another book (singular) was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books (plural), according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds” (Rev. 20:12-13).Notice the word “dead” connected to those at this judgment in the above passages, and contrast this with the words “life” and “made alive” connected to those who are “in Christ.” This is not a judgment for anyone who has been given “eternal life,” and that life being in the Son, in whom all true believers are. All who stand before the Almighty at this judgment are truly “dead,” never “made alive” in the Son, hence, unbelievers. Their deeds were written in the “books” (plural), and by those deeds they’re judged (true believers are not judged BY their deeds). Their names were not found in the other “book” (singular), which is the book of LIFE, which contains the names of those who were “made alive” in Christ, the “Last Adam.” All those who “stand” at this judgment are destined for the second death, the lake of fire (vs. 14). This being the context of that passage.

Remember what Jesus said to the people during His earthly ministry?:"I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins."The implicatiion there is that those who do believe do not die in their sins, hence dispelling the purgatory myth. And remember what Jesus said to Martha?“I am the resurrection and THE LIFE; he who believes in Me shall LIVE even if he dies, and everyone who believes in Me shall never die” (because they have LIFE, eternal, “in Him”; Jn. 11:25-26).That Last Judgment, Sean, is not for those made alive in Christ, but those who refused to believe and subsequently died in their sins.

There is no judgment leading to damnation for those “made alive” in Christ. Their names are written in the book (singular) of life. Paul says:"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are “in Christ Jesus.”

Blessings,
Bene

 

[bene7]

Sean Boyle:

What about the pagan traditions that you observe from the earlier post? Do some Christian Traditions have merit with God?

Your original question (attached with a warning) was: "So are there Traditions that give glory to God? Even if they aren’t in the bible? careful…"

There’s nothing wrong with observing or celebrating cultural traditions as long as they’re not immoral or anti-christian in nature.

The annual celebration of “Christmas” is a tradition based on a Biblical reality, the historical birth of Christ. But not all “Christian cultures” celebrate it on the 25th of Dec. (we don’t know the date of His birth). “Easter,” is another tradition based on a Biblical reality, the resurrecton of Christ. Good Friday another (although I believe He was crucified on Thursday).

But purgatory is a developed doctrine which is not based on any Biblical reality. That’s the difference, and it’s a BIG one. It has absolutely no divine revelation to support it. In fact, it opposes much of what has already been divinely revealed concerning true believers and their purification of sins through the blood of Christ.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Pryority7]

" Look at what Scripture says about that “Last Judgment”:“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books (plural) were opened; and another book (singular) was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books (plural), according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds” (Rev. 20:12-13).Notice the word “dead” connected to those at this judgment in the above passages, and contrast this with the words “life” and “made alive” connected to those who are “in Christ.” This is not a judgment for anyone who has been given “eternal life,” and that life being in the Son, in whom all true believers are. All who stand before the Almighty at this judgment are truly “dead,” never “made alive” in the Son, hence, unbelievers. Their deeds were written in the “books” (plural), and by those deeds they’re judged (true believers are not judged BY their deeds). Their names were not found in the other “book” (singular), which is the book of LIFE, which contains the names of those who were “made alive” in Christ, the “Last Adam.” All those who “stand” at this judgment are destined for the second death, the lake of fire (vs. 14). This being the context of that passage.

Whoa!!! so you are saying that you will not be judged??? It is plain in scripture that we will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ!!! I understand that Revelation passage being for the unsaved, sure, but there is a judgement of the saved too! You think you’re not going to go through that? When Christ was talking about us believers not being judged He was talking about the judgement of damnation! Dude!!! Come On!!! Not only do you think you’re sinless, but that Christ won’t hold you accountable for what you did for Him…That is unbiblical, unchristian and definitely a man made befief…so go ahead…keep deceiving yourself…

There is no judgment leading to damnation for those “made alive” in Christ. Their names are written in the book (singular) of life. Paul says:

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are "in Christ JesusThis reading has no bearing on our giving an account to God in the particular judgement…you are off base…and what’s this thing about Christ dying on a Thursday? What the…
​

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Mickey]

Pryority7:

and what’s this thing about Christ dying on a Thursday? What the…

The premise of the “three days and three nights” argument—that Jesus rose from the dead on what we would call Saturday night—might well be true. The Jews reckoned the day as beginning at sunset, which is why we read the phrase “evening and morning” in the Bible rather than the more modern phrase “day and night.” To the Jewish readers of Scripture the new day began at sunset.

When Scripture indicates that Jesus rose on the first day of the week, therefore, it means that he rose on the day that began at sunset on Saturday and lasted until sunset on Sunday. Since we are told his tomb was found empty “after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week” (Matt. 28:1), he must have risen between sunset Saturday and dawn Sunday. Whether this was before or after midnight Scripture does not say. He might have risen either Saturday night or Sunday morning before dawn, though, for purposes of determining when he was crucified, it doesn’t matter.

If Jesus was crucified and died Friday afternoon, that would be the first day; at sundown on Friday the second day would begin; then at sundown on Saturday the third day would begin. So Jesus was indeed “raised on the third day” (Matt. 20:19).

Scripture repeatedly tells us that Jesus was crucified on “the day of preparation,” which was the first-century Jewish way of referring to Friday, the day of preparation for the Sabbath. This is why the women were not able to anoint his body before he was buried—because Jesus was hurriedly buried late in the afternoon, just as the Sabbath was beginning. The women thus had to rest until the Sabbath was over (Luke 23:56).

We are also told that the Jewish leaders asked Pilate to order the legs of the crucifixion victims broken so they would die faster (from asphyxiation due to an inability to push themselves up on their crosses and take a breath), “in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the Sabbath” (John 19:31).

In the first century, “the day of preparation” referred to Friday, not the day before Passover. Further, we know from Scripture that the Sabbath following Jesus’ crucifixion was the regular, weekly Sabbath, the seventh day of the week: “Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulcher” (Matt. 28:1).

We can thus reconstruct the chronology of the crucifixion, death, and Resurrection of Christ as follows:

Friday, the Day of Preparation: Jesus is crucified with two thieves. From noon to three in the afternoon, a darkness covers the land (Matt. 27:45). Then, “ince it was the Day of Preparation, in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the Sabbath . . . the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away” (John 19:31). Then Joseph of Arimathea obtains Jesus’ body and buries it: “It was Preparation Day [that is, the day before the Sabbath]. So as evening approached, Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body” (Mark 15:42-43, NIV).

Saturday, the Sabbath: “On the Sabbath they [the women] rested according to the commandment” (Luke 23:56b). Also on this day, “that is, after the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate” and asked for a guard to be placed on the tomb (Matt. 27:62).

Sunday, the first day of the week: “Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulcher” and found that Jesus had risen from the dead (Matt. 28:1).
(Catholic Answers)

 

[Pryority7]

Wow…I learned alot from this…thank you.
Well bene, what do you think of that?

 

[bene7]

Pryority7:

Whoa!!! so you are saying that you will not be judged??? It is plain in scripture that we will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ!!! I understand that Revelation passage being for the unsaved, sure, but there is a judgement of the saved too! You think you’re not going to go through that?

The judgment of the saved is for determining one’s “rewards,” not for determining one’s eternal destination (1 Cor. 3:10-17).

When Christ was talking about us believers not being judged He was talking about the judgement of damnation! Dude!!!

Absolutely! We agree.

and what’s this thing about Christ dying on a Thursday? What the…

Can’t get into it on this thead. I figured it would disturb some of you. Scripture says that Jesus was crucified on the “day of preparation” for the Passover. It was the day they slaughtered the Passover lamb. Some Scriptures for you to consider and then you can do your own research:

JOHN 19:14 "Now it was the day of preparation for the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, “Behold, your King!”

JOHN 19:31 "The Jews therefore, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

JOHN 19:42 Therefore on account of the Jewish day of preparation, because the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.

The “Last Supper” was Wednesday evening. Jesus went before Pilate Thursday morning and was crucified that afternoon, which was the “day of preparation”, the day the lambs would be slain and roasted for the Passover meal to be eaten that Thursday evening. But Friday also began the first day of the “Feast of Unleaven Bread” which was a “Sabbath,” making it a “High Day,” as John states above in 19:31. Friday, after sunset, began the seventh-day sabbath. So Jesus was in the tomb before Passover began and was there a full three nights, just as He said He would be (Matt. 12:40): Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night. He rose on the morning of the first day of the week.

That’s all I can say on this here.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Pryority7]

The judgment of the saved is for determining one’s “rewards,” not for determining one’s eternal destination (1 Cor. 3:10-17)

“For we must ALL stand before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad” (2 Corinth 5:10). This seems straighforward in stating that it’s not just rewards that we will be judged for, unless you want to take out of context, which I bet you will do.

 

[bene7]

“For we must ALL stand before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad” (2 Corinth 5:10). This seems straighforward in stating that it’s not just rewards that we will be judged for, unless you want to take out of context, which I bet you will do.

How do you figure? It says nothing about condemnation, but what is “due.” That certainly suggests receiving something based on a work done.“Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but what is due.”“For we must all stand…” is written to believers, those who are "in Christ Jesus." And Paul says:“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1). All true believers are no longer “in Adam,” but “in Christ Jesus,” the “Last Adam,” made righteous."So then as through one transgression (Adam’s) there resulted condemnation to all men (i.e., in him), even so through one act of righteousness (Christ’s) there resulted justification of life to all men (i.e., in him). For as through the one man’s disobedience (Adam’s) the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One (Christ’s) the many will be made righteous. (Rom. 5:18-19)A true believer can no more be condemned than the risen Christ Himself can be condemned, whom he is “in.”

The judgment seat of Christ is elaborated on in 1 Cor. 3:10-15 and it has nothing to do with condemnation.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Pryority7]

Bene, of course, you took this out of context like I predicted and of course added other readings to back up your claim. I’m a logical person. If the reading mentions "bad"things and “good things”, then obviously condemnation is for those who account for the things that were bad…it’s as simple as that. You’re little reasoning does not prove a thing…aside that you’re so good at twising scripture to your taste…like a free buffet…“A little bit of this and a little bit of that, and THEN I will enjoy my meal.”
How does it taste?

 

[bene7]

Pryority7:

Bene, of course, you took this out of context like I predicted and of course added other readings to back up your claim. I’m a logical person. If the reading mentions "bad"things and “good things”, then obviously condemnation is for those who account for the things that were bad…it’s as simple as that. You’re little reasoning does not prove a thing…aside that you’re so good at twising scripture to your taste…like a free buffet…“A little bit of this and a little bit of that, and THEN I will enjoy my meal.” How does it taste?

How did I take it “out of context.” Paul, in 2 Cor. 4:14, assures his readers that He who raised the Lord Jesus WILL also raise (bodily) all of us, and this according to divine grace (vs. 15). He says that even though our “outer man” is decaying (our physical body), our “inner man” (i.e. the “new man” in Christ) is being renewed day by day. And using his own experience he states:“For momentary light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal” (2 Cor. 4:17-18).He goes on to say in chapter five that when this earthly tent (present body) is torn down (dies) we will have a “building from God” eternal in the heavens (speaking of the furture resurrection of these yet unredeemed bodies, a body whose architect is God).

Paul is consistent in his theology, because he writes to the Philippians:“For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has to subject all things to Himself” (Phil. 3:20-21, cf. 1 Cor. 15:35-48).This verse (and the 1 Cor. reference) not only speaks of the future bodily resurrection of those who have “died in Christ,” but a future translation of living saints at the time of the rapture of Christ’s Church: “Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed” (i.e., mortal to immortal, see 1 Cor. 15:51).

In 2 Cor. 5:5 Paul says that it is God Himself who prepared us for this very purpose (immortality) and gave us the Spirit as a “pledge.” The Greek word being “arrabona,” describing the portion of a purchase money paid on the receipt of goods as a guarantee that the rest of the sum would eventually be forthcoming. The giving of the Spirit to indwell true believers is a surety of their future immortality.

You see, Pry, Christ on the cross redeemed the whole man: body, soul and spirit. The redemption of our bodies is yet to come (Rom. 8:23). Until then, “we walk by faith and not by sight” in God’s immutable Word/promises (2 Cor. 5:7), and whether “at home” (in this present body) or “absent” (with the Lord) our ambition is to be pleasing to Him (2 Cor. 5:9).“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each of us may be recompensed for his deeds in the body (lit. the things through the body), according to what he has done, whether good or bad” (2 Cor. 5:10).The context in which this tribunal is presented by Paul in this chapter speaks nothing of eternal damnation of true believers who have the Spirit from God as a guarantee (arrabon) of their future immortality. But this tribunal will assess, with complete justice and impartiality, the worth of the believer’s actions in this present, unredeemed body AFTER conversion. It will disclose both the “good” and the “bad.” The “good” being that which is valuable to the kingdom (and thus rewarded), and the “bad” being that which is worthless (hence not rewarded, see 1 Cor. 3:10-15).

No, my friend, it’s you who want to condemn believers. Not Paul according to the context, not Christ who redeemed them, body, soul and spirit, nor God who gave them the Spirit as a pledge, a down payment, of eternal things to come - but you.

I pointed out in a previous post that 2 Cor. 5:5-8 reveals the total absence of the doctrine of “purgatory” in Paul’s theology. To him to be absent from this present body is to be instantly at “home with the Lord.” There is no intermediate state for beleivers fully redeemed by Christ’s blood. There’s no room for it.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[sara888]

**The eternal security followers, believers seem to quote Paul, and they quote him out of context, they take a few verses that were misinterpreted as a way to live by… lets quote what Jesus asked of us, have faith and abide in him. Sara
**

John1 2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. ** **

 

[sara888]

Let’s hope purgatory exists, because according to the bible most of us will be going to Hell… Why.??? Because we sin and never are truly sorry … When is one truly sorry for offending God… If God forgives us , then when do we stop sinning … Can we sin our way to Heaven.??? .!

**There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life “some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire.” **

Sara

 

[bene7]

Let’s hope purgatory exists, because according to the bible most of us will be going to Hell… Why.??? Because we sin and never are truly sorry … When is one truly sorry for offending God… If God forgives us , then when do we stop sinning … Can we sin our way to Heaven.??? .!

**There are several passages in the New Testament that point to a process of purification after death. Thus, Jesus Christ declares (Matthew 12:32): “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.” According to St. Isidore of Seville (Deord. creatur., c. xiv, n. 6) these words prove that in the next life “some sins will be forgiven and purged away by a certain purifying fire.” **

But “Purgatory” isn’t about “forgiving” sins, but cleansing of residual (venial) sins in which one dies. But this goes against what Jesus said:JOHN 8:24 "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."The implication here being that those who DO believe will not die in their sins. Hence, no sins to cleanse after death and dispelling the myth of purgatory, once and for all.

As for the word “world” in Matt. 12:32, it’s the Greek word aion which should be translated “age.” Blasphemeing against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this present age or in the age to come; which is the Millennial Kingdom Christ will set up at His second Advent (or, it’s possible Christ was referring to this present Church age). Nevertheless, blasphemeing against the Holy Spirit is done by unbelievers (done in unbelief), not believers.

This verse says absolutely nothing about “Purgatory” or the cleansing of sins by the believer’s own suffering in an intermediate state (purgatory cannot be classified as an “age”). Obviously, St. Isidore of Seville didn’t understand the full counsel of God revealed in His written Word.

Blessings,
Bene

 

[Mickey]

bene7:

Obviously, St. Isidore of Seville didn’t understand the full counsel of God revealed in His written Word.

I would heed the interpretations of St Isidore of Seville over those of “bene the biblicist” in a heartbeat!

 

[sara888]

---

Purgatory****

KJB Malachi 3 1-6

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1: Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2: But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness**.
4: Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5: And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6: For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.