Purgatory and 2 Maccabees

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ematouk

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Recently I was having a discussion with a Roman Catholic about purgatory and he brought up an interesting verse from the scriptures which he claims is evidence of purgatory (2 Maccabees 39-46):

"39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.

40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.

41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. "

The bolded areas are the areas brought up in the discussion.

My question was “how can this passage be referring to Purgatory, when these people clearly performed the mortal sin of idolatry? Doesn’t Catholic theology teach that those who commit mortal sin and are unrepentent will go to hell? Was Judas praying for those who went to hell according to Catholic teaching?”

To this no answer was given. My aim is not disprove the Catholic faith by this post, but to seek clarity on this issue from a Catholic perspective.

Thankyou and God bless.
 
Recently I was having a discussion with a Roman Catholic about purgatory and he brought up an interesting verse from the scriptures which he claims is evidence of purgatory (2 Maccabees 39-46):

"39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.

40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.

41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. "

The bolded areas are the areas brought up in the discussion.

My question was “how can this passage be referring to Purgatory, when these people clearly performed the mortal sin of idolatry? Doesn’t Catholic theology teach that those who commit mortal sin and are unrepentent will go to hell? Was Judas praying for those who went to hell according to Catholic teaching?”

To this no answer was given. My aim is not disprove the Catholic faith by this post, but to seek clarity on this issue from a Catholic perspective.

Thankyou and God bless.
 
Recently I was having a discussion with a Roman Catholic about purgatory and he brought up an interesting verse from the scriptures which he claims is evidence of purgatory (2 Maccabees 39-46):

"39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.

40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.

41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. "

The bolded areas are the areas brought up in the discussion.

My question was “how can this passage be referring to Purgatory, when these people clearly performed the mortal sin of idolatry? Doesn’t Catholic theology teach that those who commit mortal sin and are unrepentent will go to hell? Was Judas praying for those who went to hell according to Catholic teaching?”

To this no answer was given. My aim is not disprove the Catholic faith by this post, but to seek clarity on this issue from a Catholic perspective.

Thankyou and God bless.
 
Recently I was having a discussion with a Roman Catholic about purgatory and he brought up an interesting verse from the scriptures which he claims is evidence of purgatory (2 Maccabees 39-46):

"39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.

40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.

41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. "

The bolded areas are the areas brought up in the discussion.

My question was “how can this passage be referring to Purgatory, when these people clearly performed the mortal sin of idolatry? Doesn’t Catholic theology teach that those who commit mortal sin and are unrepentent will go to hell? Was Judas praying for those who went to hell according to Catholic teaching?”

To this no answer was given. My aim is not disprove the Catholic faith by this post, but to seek clarity on this issue from a Catholic perspective.

Thankyou and God bless.
 
ematouk said:
Recently I was having a discussion with a Roman Catholic about purgatory and he brought up an interesting verse from the scriptures which he claims is evidence of purgatory (2 Maccabees 39-46):

"39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.

40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.

41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. "

The bolded areas are the areas brought up in the discussion.

My question was “how can this passage be referring to Purgatory, when these people clearly performed the mortal sin of idolatry? Doesn’t Catholic theology teach that those who commit mortal sin and are unrepentent will go to hell? Was Judas praying for those who went to hell according to Catholic teaching?”

To this no answer was given. My aim is not disprove the Catholic faith by this post, but to seek clarity on this issue from a Catholic perspective.

Thankyou and God bless.
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IT is an example of praying and offering a sacrifice for those who have died, for God’s Mercy. No individual ever knows the fate of another individual. There was simply hope.
 
We can debate whether or not the sinful soldiers were actually aided by this sacrifice or not, in light of the severity of this sin. However, what is not up for debate is that Judas thought it wise to offer such a sacrifice for these dead soldiers, in the hopes that this sacrifice for the dead would help them in transition from this life into heaven (Judas undeniable believed in purgatory.) And that his belief here is scripturally commended as “holy and pious.”
 
ematouk said:
My question was “how can this passage be referring to Purgatory, when these people clearly performed the mortal sin of idolatry? Doesn’t Catholic theology teach that those who commit mortal sin and are unrepentent will go to hell? Was Judas praying for those who went to hell according to Catholic teaching?”

To this no answer was given. My aim is not disprove the Catholic faith by this post, but to seek clarity on this issue from a Catholic perspective.

Thankyou and God bless.
Click to expand...
There is nothing in this passage that indicates that these men were guilty of mortal sin. The wearing of amulets in itself is not necessarily an indication that these men were engaging in full-blown idolatry – they could have been guilty of something as simple of simple superstition or “hedging their bets” by wearing these amulets as good luck charms.

Judas and his men, in any case, are (after the fact) in no position to know the mindset of these men. All they know is that these men are guilty of *at least *superstition and offered prayer and sacrifice for this purpose.

These men did not presume the dead soldiers were guilty of mortal sin, just as we Christians should not, who pray for the repose of the souls of our loved ones.
 
Exactly!! A soul that dies in mortal sin is going to hell. There is no offering on their behalf but venal is something we can offer prayer and sacrifice for for the expiation of their soul. Mortal sin sends one to hell. There is no praying someone out of hell. Also if we did go straight to heaven like most Protestants believe then there would be no need to pray/sacrifice for the expiation of their souls like the main character did here.
 
Which is exactly why Luther tool robot out of the bible even though it had been part of the bible for more than a 1000 years.
 
We cannot know infallibly who died in mortal sin or not (the Jews probably did not have the mortal/venial distinction in their Theology as well.) Therefore, it is best to pray and offer sacrifices regardless. Masses are said for those who have committed suicide if I’m not mistaken. I pray for those who have committed suicide as I would tend to think most others do who pray for the dead. That is because as Brother (I think) pointed out, there is hope. With suicide al three conditions of mortal sin may not be present; same goes for idolators.
 
ematouk said:
Recently I was having a discussion with a Roman Catholic about purgatory and he brought up an interesting verse from the scriptures which he claims is evidence of purgatory (2 Maccabees 39-46):

"39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his men went to gather up the bodies of the slain and bury them with their kinsmen in their ancestral tombs.

40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had been slain.

41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden.

42 Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas warned the soldiers to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.

43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;

44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.

45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. "

The bolded areas are the areas brought up in the discussion.

My question was “how can this passage be referring to Purgatory, when these people clearly performed the mortal sin of idolatry? Doesn’t Catholic theology teach that those who commit mortal sin and are unrepentent will go to hell? Was Judas praying for those who went to hell according to Catholic teaching?”

To this no answer was given. My aim is not disprove the Catholic faith by this post, but to seek clarity on this issue from a Catholic perspective.

Thankyou and God bless.
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**
It is by Gods mercy we have purgatory, its a grace, some of us do our Purgatory here on earth, which is also a grace and or blessing. God is merciful, more than just. Divine Mercy is his greatest attribute, however as a good father he also must be a just judge to his children. No one knows where Judas is, we pray and hope, God had mercy on his soul and he went to Purgatory… Purgatory is a gift for us Christians. If you truly like to know about this place , please Read about the Saints. Saint Gertrude, (saint Catherine of Genoa, St. Augustine, St James,

“It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” —2 Machabees 12:46

Lulu**
 
plogoo said:
Which is exactly why Luther tool robot out of the bible even though it had been part of the bible for more than a 1000 years.
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Actually, Luther did believe prayers for the dead were ok.

“As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: “Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.” And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice.”

Jon
 
Martin Luther at one time was Catholic. And he most likely had a lot of that training in mind, as he would mature and age. Even after he broke away. There is proof of this when he is quote as calling Mary the Mother of God.

That isn’t exactly wrong.

I personally don’t like to say it that way, because God had to become a flesh being. He had to have a natural upbringing like the rest of us. That was very important.

Dying on the Cross, and his resurrection is extremely important for us Christians.

…

Okay,

the issue here is dealing with purgatory.

If that concept never even appeared in Hebrew bibles (Tanakh), where did it come from?
 
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