Purgatory and "duration"?

[tassitus]

Often on *Catholic Answers *radio, and occasionally on these forums, when mention is made of purgatory there is quite often some *durational *aspect involved (or at least implied). As in “spending time” in a “place” known as purgatory.

Now, I don’t have too much trouble with the concept of “place” after death, or at least my idea of purgatory does not add any additional problems, for me, to the general mystery of where, spatially (?), we may go after death (if 3-dimensional “space” even has any meaning at that point).

But the durational aspect does strike me as inaccurate in that once we die we are most certainly beyond time. How, then, can we speak of post-death “time” or “duration” at all?

Isn’t purgatory just the process (I would say instantaneous process, but will this have any meaning when all “instances” are present before us?) by which we undergo a final purification, such purification being necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27)?

The *Catechism of the Catholic Church *defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). And I most certainly believe in purgatory (thanking God for it, 'cause I sure anticipate needing the process…!).

But need we drag our human concept of “time” (or “space”) along with us after death? I just don’t see the need, or that it helps in explaining it to others.

Peace all.

 

[ribozyme]

Often on *Catholic Answers *radio, and occasionally on these forums, when mention is made of purgatory there is quite often some *durational *aspect involved (or at least implied). As in “spending time” in a “place” known as purgatory.

Now, I don’t have too much trouble with the concept of “place” after death, or at least my idea of purgatory does not add any additional problems, for me, to the general mystery of where, spatially (?), we may go after death (if 3-dimensional “space” even has any meaning at that point).

But the durational aspect does strike me as inaccurate in that once we die we are most certainly beyond time. How, then, can we speak of post-death “time” or “duration” at all?

Isn’t purgatory just the process (I would say instantaneous process, but will this have any meaning when all “instances” are present before us?) by which we undergo a final purification, such purification being necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27)?

The *Catechism of the Catholic Church *defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). And I most certainly believe in purgatory (thanking God for it, 'cause I sure anticipate needing the process…!).

But need we drag our human concept of “time” (or “space”) along with us after death? I just don’t see the need, or that it helps in explaining it to others.

Peace all.

It can’t be investigated scientifically, but I am curious to hear any refutation of the hypothesis that the duration of purgatory is long as a Planck time (you need to look that up).

 

[Fidelis]

“Time” when referring to the afterlife is only a manner of speaking. Human language does have it’s limitations. There is probably a better way to say it, but in common conversation, one would probably be reduced to clumsy circumlocutions. The problem isn’t the term, it’s the lack of education on the part of the hearers.

 

[thistle]

I don’t care how long I would spend in Purgatory. After all, its not a punishment but a purification and if I find myself in Purgatory I will be happy because I will know I have been saved. Heaven guaranteed next stop.

 

[Struggling]

newadvent.org/summa/1010.htm#5

See Aquinas’s explanation of “aeviternity”

After death, until the resurrection, we will no longer have material bodies…and so it is true we will no longer experience material, dimensional time.

BUT, we are not God. We can never be completely “eternal” in the sense that God is for the very fact that we HAVE experienced time at some point and so can never undo that and suddenly enter into “being in all times at once” because then we would be in heaven since the creation of the world or our own birth etc…all sorts of strange things.

Nevertheless, we are still bound by logic and cause and effect. Therefore, we will live in what Aquinas called “aevums” or “aeviternity” these are not smooth, continuous time…but a logically ordered series of “events,” with a before and after to them. They will not seem to take up any “time,” indeed, I cannot speak of what experiencing it will be like…but nevertheless, there will be a series of discreet Events. It may seem (to the soul in heaven at least) like they pass in an instant (since the events don’t take up any “time”) but perhaps more events piled up equates with a greater intensity of punishment in purgatory.

Nevertheless, these events (following the rules of cause and effect) may not seem like any time to the dead…but can seem like Time to US ON EARTH because the escape of souls from Purgatory is often causatively linked to events on earth (prayers, masses, indulgences)…and so a soul, from OUR perspective, cannot be said to have been released from purgatory until AFTER the earth event which was causative of their release.

And if this event happens 400 years later in earth time, then that person from our perspective “spent 400 years there” even if it seems like an instant to them…because the Event of their death and the Event causing their release were seperated by 400 years of earth time.

HOWEVER, interestingly enough, spending lots of EARTH time in purgatory thus does not logically correspond necessarily to a greater punishment (though I assume God has arranged it so that it often does). Perhaps for the person who spent “400 years” there…there were only 2 events involved, their death and a Mass 400 year from now…and so the time in between meant nothing to them in terms of additional suffering (they were only required 1 punitive event).

On the other hand, someone might be required to experience 40 penal “events” and yet they have 40 events worth of prayers said for them within the first month! They are out “sooner” from our perspective, and even “before” the other person from their perspective, but suffered 40 times as many “events” and were punished 40 times as much…

But I assume, unless our prayers or indulgences are directed towards a particular soul, that God uses our non-specific indulgences and prayers “for purgatory” for the souls with the least events first, so that they can get out “sooner” (from earth’s perspective) and thus help be able to interceed in events that take place earlier in history…the most efficient release method to maximize the number of souls in heaven, (picking the low hanging apples first, as it were…)

 

[vern_humphrey]

When we do penance, we are atoning for our sins. Those sins for which we have not completely atoned in life will be atoned in Purgatory.

The ancient Church gave penance in days – so many days of atonement for each sin. The “time” in Purgatory is whatever atonement we accomplish as measured in penance. In other words, if you are granted 10 days indulgence, that atones as much as 10 days of penance.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

**Maybe time & space are involved, not because they have anything to do with Purgatory, but because they helped to explain the Church’s practice. **People would commute seven years’ penance (say) to a remission of that time on earth doing penance; which is (*very *briefly) where seven years’ indulgence comes from; for the penance could be remitted for the doing of an equivalent good work (the extent of the equivalence being set by the Church): seven years of penance for theft, might be remitted on condition the penitent built a bridge, say. This equivalence was open to serious abuse, for things are obviously much more complicated.​

It doesn’t follow from this that one can “be in purgatory” for seven years - the notion of time in purgatory, ISTM, comes from applying time, which fits part of the doctrine about the afterlife (the part that applies to the Church’s discipline regarding penance) to a part of the doctrine about the afterlife that it does not fit (that is, the nature of existence in the afterlife)

So that time & space are applied to ideas about Purgatory, not because they refer to it as such - but because they apply to something connected to it, namely, the Church’s penitential discipline. IOW, ISTM there’s been a mismatch, as though a child drawing a horse had given it a lion’s head - they are related animals (both are mammals, both are land animals, & so on); but they not the same animal. To avoid confusing them is not a betrayal of the Church’s thinking but a service to the Church; which is why the reforms of Paul VI regarding indulgences are a service to the Church, not a betrayal of it.

In reforming the Church’s use of indulgences in 1968, he removed the element of time from them. Indulgences are as theologically & doctrinally valid as ever - what we no longer have, are indulgences “of X amount of time”. The element of time is not necessary to the doctrine either of purgatory, or of indulgences - only to a (particular form of) the discipline of penance, & only to that part of it which affects the discipline of indulgences. It’s interesting that Catholics had indulgences with those exotic & weird details of time - but, if a detail in the Church’s discipline obscures the doctrine that detail was originally meant to serve, being exotic is not a sufficient reason to keep that detail. So the indication of time was abolished; it was a relic from the discipline of the past, causing confusion about the doctrine of the Church in the present. Some miss the exotic detail - but it went for very good reasons; not because the Pope was betraying the doctrine of the Church.

**So we still have purgatory, & indulgences - what we no longer have is the element of time, whether in the doctrine about purgatory or the practice of gaining indulgences, which is related to it. Purgatory & indulgences both have theological & doctrinal foundations, in the mystery of Christ - neither is a “Catholic add-on”; & they are related, yet they are not the same. **

Hope that helps (sorry about the length )