Purgatory and James White

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Yeah so I was looking up catholic beliefs on purgatory to help explain to my Dad. Then I came across James White’s website to see the protestant response. The thing is, James White is completely out of my league, and that’s where my Dad likes to get his answers from. I’m not even going to get into all the questions I have but I will ask this.

If purgatory has never been specified as to the length of time of cleansing, how do we know our prayers to the dead are even effectual? They may be unable to pray for us because they are not in heaven yet?

I realize that this isn’t dogma, but I believe it was the vision at Fatima that said one of the people would be there “until the end of the world,” in which case our prayers except to Mary, would do no good, since we have no way of knowing if the saints we pray to are there or not yet, and since one person may be there until the end of the world, it is possible others would be too.

Anybody have a response for this, it is kind of bugging me.
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
If purgatory has never been specified as to the length of time of cleansing, how do we know our prayers to the dead are even effectual?
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In the case of Canonized Saints, we know they are in heaven because the Church has told us so.

This is, yet again, really a question of Church authority. If Jesus really did give the Church authority to teach in his name (“he who hears you, hears me”) then we can believe what the Church tells us just as we would believe it if Jesus himself told us.
 
I have been told that the Souls in purgatory can only pray…and they cannot pray for themselves. Our requests for prayers (we do not pray to them, we ask them for their prayers for us) is fruitful. We in turn, ask the Lord to have mercy on their souls. So in a sence, we continue the prayer relationship that we may have had while they were alive.
 
Thank you mommybug47, that was probably the most helpful response for me yet. Do you know where that can be found as a more formal teaching? Or was it simply a statement?
 
There’s a certain paradoxical interaction between time and eternity. For God, the world has not yet begun, is beginning, is happening, is ending, and has ended- God is outside of time. So, theoretically, it does not matter if we pray to someone who is “currently” in Purgatory- they may well hear our prayers as though they were in Heaven.
 
Yes that is something I tend to forget, God’s time is not our own…
 
This is from the catechism:
958 Communion with the dead. “In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and ‘because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins’ she offers her suffrages for them.” Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective
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as is this:
III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
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1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
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1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605
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As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
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Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609
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Hopefully that meets your needs for an official source.
 
I meant more about whether or not souls in purgatory could pray for us, but I appreciate the link. God bless.
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
Yeah so I was looking up catholic beliefs on purgatory to help explain to my Dad. Then I came across James White’s website to see the protestant response. The thing is, James White is completely out of my league, and that’s where my Dad likes to get his answers from. I’m not even going to get into all the questions I have but I will ask this.

If purgatory has never been specified as to the length of time of cleansing, how do we know our prayers to the dead are even effectual? They may be unable to pray for us because they are not in heaven yet?

I realize that this isn’t dogma, but I believe it was the vision at Fatima that said one of the people would be there “until the end of the world,” in which case our prayers except to Mary, would do no good, since we have no way of knowing if the saints we pray to are there or not yet, and since one person may be there until the end of the world, it is possible others would be too.

Anybody have a response for this, it is kind of bugging me.
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Try this out on your dad:

We all try to avoid sin. In so doing, we grow in holiness as time goes by. We are being perfected. The final bit of sanctification upon death is the completion of that process. We call that Purgatory - a “purging” of whatever imperfections are left at the end of life, and whatever temporal punishments we did not endure due to our sins. God’s perfect justice demands the latter, and entrance into heaven where “nothing unclean” can enter demands the former.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I have been saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the “burning” ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God.

This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God’s love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - “purged” - away in the fire of Gods love. There’s an old children’s song, “God loves you just the way you are, but much too much to let you stay that way.” Ahh, yes. Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
Yeah so I was looking up catholic beliefs on purgatory to help explain to my Dad. Then I came across James White’s website to see the protestant response. The thing is, James White is completely out of my league, and that’s where my Dad likes to get his answers from. I’m not even going to get into all the questions I have but I will ask this.

If purgatory has never been specified as to the length of time of cleansing, how do we know our prayers to the dead are even effectual? They may be unable to pray for us because they are not in heaven yet?

I realize that this isn’t dogma, but I believe it was the vision at Fatima that said one of the people would be there “until the end of the world,” in which case our prayers except to Mary, would do no good, since we have no way of knowing if the saints we pray to are there or not yet, and since one person may be there until the end of the world, it is possible others would be too.

Anybody have a response for this, it is kind of bugging me.
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Check out websites for former protestants like Tim Staples or John Martignonni. These guys are top notch apologists now, along with Scott Hahn. James White is an anti Catholic right up there with Jack Chick. We are supposed to pray for the poor souls in purgatory. We offer masses for them and pray for cleansing to be accomplished. Purgatory is out side of time. It is a part of eternity, so the time given for the person our Lady spoke about at Fatima only is relevant to us, not to those in purgatory. The doctrine of purgatory is described in the bible, it is just not named yet. Pax Christi
 
I believe C.S. Lewis likened it to “scrubbing up before a family dinner” or something along those lines. It’s been years since I’ve read that book…

Is there an official church teaching on whether or not souls in purgatory can pray for us?
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
I believe C.S. Lewis likened it to “scrubbing up before a family dinner” or something along those lines. It’s been years since I’ve read that book…

Is there an official church teaching on whether or not souls in purgatory can pray for us?
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I don’t think there is and I don’t think there is a necessity for the Church to have one.🙂
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
Is there an official church teaching on whether or not souls in purgatory can pray for us?
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No idea on that, but obviously they could have prayed for us while alive, and they are saved, not damned, so why would they suddenly lose the ability to pray for others that they had in this life? And then regain that ability when their sanctification was completed?

It wouldn’t surprise me if praying for others (placing others above themselves) was in fact an important part of that sanctification.
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
I believe C.S. Lewis likened it to “scrubbing up before a family dinner” or something along those lines. It’s been years since I’ve read that book…

Is there an official church teaching on whether or not souls in purgatory can pray for us?
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Many Catholics ask the prayers of the suffering souls in purgatory, and believe that often they obtain favors from God through these prayers. But sometimes a doubt is raised whether this can be; and this for two reasons. One, do these souls know anything that passes on earth? For if not, then they do not even know that we are wanting them to pray for us. And secondly, since they cannot pray for themselves nor do anything to purify themselves but suffer, is it likely that they can pray for us?

As to their knowledge. In this world the soul does not learn what is happening except by hearing, seeing, and the other bodily senses. Consequently when the soul leaves the body it has no natural means of learning anything that happens on earth. This is true alike of the souls in hell, in purgatory, in heaven. It is not difficult to believe that the saints in heaven, who like angels “always see the face of my Father who is in heaven,” in seeing God seeall the happenings on earth that he wishes them to see, since they now wish only what God wishes. But we cannot say this of the suffering souls, for they do not see God. All these difficulties only amount to saying that we do not know any means by which the dead can see or learn what passes on earth. But if God wills that they should learn it, the difficulties are no difficulties at all. Our reason for expecting God to will it is the bond of love which he has set up between the members of the Communion of Saints, which is the Church. We are praying for these souls because he loves them, and because for his sake we love them. It seems natural to expect that they will know of our prayers. As to their not being able to pray for even themselves, it is true, that their whole activity is a burning love for God, and the root of their suffering is that they are hindered in this love by the stains of their sins. That intense love will find food and great joy in seeing the bond of love that he had made between us and the suffering soul, in seeing how he has moved us to pray for it, in wishing that he will return good to us for the good we have done. And that wish, if God allows it to exist in the soul, is in effect a prayer for us. For all depends on the will of God. We only know that it seems, as far as we can see, worthy of God’s holiness and goodness to allow these suffering souls to help us; and therefore we know that if he will allow it, all the difficulties that we see in the way of doing it are due simply to the littleness of our understanding.
 
That last line of CCC 958 should be of help, Our prayer for them is is capeable of not only helping them , but also of making their intercession for us more effective.

This is official Church Teaching. They pray for us as we pray for them, as I pray for you, you can pray for me…The communion of the saints includes the whole church forthe whole of eternity. you me, my mother, our grandparents and second great great uncles twice removed, and the little old lady in the front row. All of us together, past present and future.

Also St Dominic as he was dying said, " Do not weep, for I will be of more use to you after my death and I shall help you more effectively than during my life.
I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth." He being a saint would have been humble enough to not believe he was going straight to heaven!

Check out CCC 954-962 Especially 962 … We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one church; and we believe that it is this communion that the merciful love of God and his saints is always attentive to our prayers.

Church teaching does say that we are all one church, and as church it is our most important mission to pray for one another…it matters not which state of life we are in, we pray, we communicate with Our Father who desires the very best for us…He is waiting for us to ask for what we need, so he can bless us abundantly with that which is good for His will for us.

Does that help you a little more, Nathan??
 
Yes mommybug47 your responses have all been very helpful. My wife somehow lost our catechism when we were on vacation from Iraq, and I haven’t bought a new one yet.
 
Nathan_Wagar said:
I meant more about whether or not souls in purgatory could pray for us, but I appreciate the link. God bless.
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When we recite the Nicene Creed we profess our belief in the communion of saints. This means we, those in heaven , and those in purgatory are in communion with each other. As to the degree God allows those in purgatory to pray 'for us"; it is a mystery. We only know we need to pray to God on their behalf–especially those whom have no one else to pray for them.
 
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