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johnnyt3000
Guest
What do I say when someone claims “purgatory doesnt exist because we are cleansed by Jesus’ blood” when discussing Purgatory with my protestant friend, how will I adress this?
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POJIUJH
Guest
You ought to explain what purgatory is, perhaps like this:
If a boy breaks a window, he sins against the home owner. If he goes back to the home owner and sincerely apologises, the home owner might sincerely forgive him. Yet, the window is still broken, and purgatory is like working to fix the window.
It would be good to explain too, that a person has to be perfect to be in Heaven, since there can’t exist any imperfection there. Purgatory also purifies us and makes us Holy for this if we are still imperfect when we die or if we die with venial sins that haven’t been confessed.
Christ died to atone for our sins, but not necessarily to save us from all fair temporary consequences of our sins. This is justice. Though by the merits of the Cross, He does give us the grace and opportunity to be able to avoid purgatory.
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MrSnaith
Guest
First, you should ask them if they understand what the doctrine of purgatory really means.
In the act of forgiveness, two things must take place. First, as a sign of regret and the desire to amend, an act of recompense must be made. This is to satisfy justice. Second, the offender must actually be inwardly changed. A thief who gives the money back, but then goes out and steals the next day has only fulfilled the first of these two things. Without inner change to righteousness, the act of recompense is rendered worthless.
Christ’s blood actually accomplishes both of these, but it does so by different means. First, His obedience and sacrifice accomplish the act of recompense, and reconciliation. Justice is fulfilled through this merciful act, and it is immediate. We call this redemption. That very second that Christ fulfilled His mission, we were redeemed.
However, it should be clear and obvious to our Protestant brethren that the second part isn’t accomplished immediately. Indeed, even the greatest saints still sinned. Some part of them was still inclined toward sin. Thus, we can see that inner change is a process, not something that just happens. And as a process, it requires our cooperation. But it is not our own merits, the strength of our own deeds which accomplishes this inner change. It is these things in union with Christ by which we are changed inwardly. We call this inward change toward righteousness Salvation.
Yet, not all of us achieve very great change during our lives, struggle though we may. The doctrine of purgatory teaches that after death, those who are still in friendship with God, but who have not become perfect in life, undergo a period of purgation by which their inner dialogue with God, their inner righteousness, is perfected. And this is accomplished by the blood of Christ, just as our Protestant brothers claim.
In the act of forgiveness, two things must take place. First, as a sign of regret and the desire to amend, an act of recompense must be made. This is to satisfy justice. Second, the offender must actually be inwardly changed. A thief who gives the money back, but then goes out and steals the next day has only fulfilled the first of these two things. Without inner change to righteousness, the act of recompense is rendered worthless.
Christ’s blood actually accomplishes both of these, but it does so by different means. First, His obedience and sacrifice accomplish the act of recompense, and reconciliation. Justice is fulfilled through this merciful act, and it is immediate. We call this redemption. That very second that Christ fulfilled His mission, we were redeemed.
However, it should be clear and obvious to our Protestant brethren that the second part isn’t accomplished immediately. Indeed, even the greatest saints still sinned. Some part of them was still inclined toward sin. Thus, we can see that inner change is a process, not something that just happens. And as a process, it requires our cooperation. But it is not our own merits, the strength of our own deeds which accomplishes this inner change. It is these things in union with Christ by which we are changed inwardly. We call this inward change toward righteousness Salvation.
Yet, not all of us achieve very great change during our lives, struggle though we may. The doctrine of purgatory teaches that after death, those who are still in friendship with God, but who have not become perfect in life, undergo a period of purgation by which their inner dialogue with God, their inner righteousness, is perfected. And this is accomplished by the blood of Christ, just as our Protestant brothers claim.
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POJIUJH
Guest
Here are also some links I found for you, I have a habit of linking too many, but check them out!
catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory
helpersoftheholysouls.com/purgatory_corner/FirstChristiansOnPurgatory.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
(Much more thorough).
catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory
helpersoftheholysouls.com/purgatory_corner/FirstChristiansOnPurgatory.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
(Much more thorough).
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johnnyt3000
Guest
Thank you for the help
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Jon_S_1
Guest
I put this on another thread but will copy it here. It is best to really simplify purgatory for the Evangelical. That way they hopefully can at least grasp the purpose of it.
When you parse it out most every Protestant believes it.
Me: do you believe in purgatory?
Evangelical: oh no not at all
Me: oh… Well do you at least believe there is no more pain in heaven?
Evangelical: yes of course!
Me: what about sickness and sadness?
Evangelical: the scriptures say no more tears of course not!
Me: well since sin brings about these things there must not be any sin in heaven?
Evangelical: certainly not! God cannot be in the presence of sin!
Me: but we are sinners even when we die we are sinners…
Evangelical:…yes, yes we are. Thank God Jesus saved us!
Me: yes! Thank God he does! It’s almost like we must be transformed and made holy for heaven to get rid of our sinfulness.
Evangelical: yes, we will be like Christ! Free of Sin and worldly sufferings!
Me: Congratulations my friend you believe in Purgation of sin at death…what we call Purgatory.
Evangelical:
. More and more evangelicals are embracing this. You might enjoy this Evangelical book: Purgatory: The Logic of Total Transformation by Jerry Walls
amazon.com/gp/aw/d/019973…&robot_redir=1
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Tommy555
Guest
I recall a Baptist preacher’s sermon in which he stated, “Once you have accepted Christ as your Savior, you can become an apostate and still be saved.” Now, if your friend is correct, this preacher would be correct. Jesus was made perfect through suffering; the Church is made perfect through suffering; and we are made perfect through suffering.
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johnnyt3000
Guest
That’s great, but I can see how this conversation can be misunderstood. From hearing this conversation one might come to believe that Purgatory is something we do here on earth instead of it being a place after we die. I would add to how it is an actual place in this conversation.I put this on another thread but will copy it here. It is best to really simplify purgatory for the Evangelical. That way they hopefully can at least grasp the purpose of it.
When you parse it out most every Protestant believes it.
Me: do you believe in purgatory?
Evangelical: oh no not at all
Me: oh… Well do you at least believe there is no more pain in heaven?
Evangelical: yes of course!
Me: what about sickness and sadness?
Evangelical: the scriptures say no more tears of course not!
Me: well since sin brings about these things there must not be any sin in heaven?
Evangelical: certainly not! God cannot be in the presence of sin!
Me: but we are sinners even when we die we are sinners…
Evangelical:…yes, yes we are. Thank God Jesus saved us!
Me: yes! Thank God he does! It’s almost like we must be transformed and made holy for heaven to get rid of our sinfulness.
Evangelical: yes, we will be like Christ! Free of Sin and worldly sufferings!
Me: Congratulations my friend you believe in Purgation of sin at death…what we call Purgatory.
Evangelical:
. More and more evangelicals are embracing this. You might enjoy this Evangelical book: Purgatory: The Logic of Total Transformation by Jerry Walls
amazon.com/gp/aw/d/019973…&robot_redir=1
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johnnyt3000
Guest
Nevermind, Tim Staples said it was not a place. The catechism says it is a state.
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MrSnaith
Guest
Except Purgatory isn’t a “place” in the locative sense. Being “in Purgatory” might be understood in the same sense as being “in the moment.” It’s a state of purgation, which carries with it a sense of time, but not that of space. Your soul does not have extension, thus when it is separated from your body, it doesn’t exist in this or that “place,” but it is certainly in this or that “state.”
Moreover, what we do on Earth increases or reduces our time “in Purgatory” because of what Purgatory actually is. It is a purgation of our sinful habits, our inclinations, and whatever vestiges of selfishness exist within us. We can do that on Earth, which is why some people are declared Saints. So, Purgatory in this real sense is not just a post-death reality, but is also part of our earthly life, too.
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MrSnaith
Guest
lol, beat me to it.
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