Purgatory and Philippians 1:22-25

[JohnnyReb]

As someone investigating Catholicism, I want to know how Catholics reconcile the teaching of purgatory with the following verses: Maybe I misunderstand the church’s teaching on the matter.

22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith,

 

[Lance_O]

This verse doesn’t say anything that contradicts Purgatory at all. In fact, it’s about Paul’s life not being his own and belonging to Christ. A good verse that points to Purgatory is **1Cor 3:10-17 **(v15). The verse talks about works becoming visable on the DAY (death) and being saved through fire. Well, if one has died, then suffers and then enters Heaven, it can’t be Hell since one is always condemed and will always suffer. It can’t be Heaven since there is no suffering in Heaven. Then it it a temporary place were one is cleansed or in other word: Purged.

Other verses for Purgatory: Mt 5:48, Heb 12:14, Jam 3:2, Rev 21:27, 1 Jn 5:16-17, 2 Sam 12: 13-14, 2 Tim 1: 16-18, 1 Cor 15: 29-30.

Hope this helps.

 

[Deidre]

As someone investigating Catholicism, I want to know how Catholics reconcile the teaching of purgatory with the following verses: Maybe I misunderstand the church’s teaching on the matter.

22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith,

I also desire to depart this life and be with Christ. But that doesn’t mean that I might not have to go through a process of purification before I have the priviledge of being in the presence of God. I am going through some of this purification now, in my earthly body, as I try to detach myself from worldly things and attach myself wholly to God. But I may not complete that detachment here on earth so God in His mercy will allow me to continue the process after I die. Thanks be to God who cares to allow me to become the person He envisioned me to be completely, if not in this life then the next.

You really can’t take one verse out of the bible and build an assumption around it. You have to consider the bible as the whole and allow the Church to teach it to you.

Consider the following Scripture verse from 1 Corinthians 4:3-4

**3I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. **

In the Phillipians verse that you just quoted, you are assuming that Paul felt he would leave this world and go directly to heaven. (which I’m not saying he didn’t!) but in light of the Corinthians verse above, I could say that Paul didn’t even feel assured of his own salvation. Yet we know that Scripture doesn’t contradict itself. That’s why you need to consider the whole of Scripture because if you just take individual verses out of context, you would find a lot of contradictions.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Thanks for your answers. These verses are among the first that protestants pull out when giving a reason for denying purgatory. Charles Stanley believes that 1 Corinthians 3 refers to a judgement that all who have professed Christ endure. Those who lived in sin will be saved through fire, their works burnt up, but they will be saved. He goes on to say that in eternity that not all who have professed Christ have the same reward in heaven, based on works. The ironic part is that while believing this, others like him are so strongly opposed to the idea of purgatory.

 

[JohnnyReb]

In the Phillipians verse that you just quoted, you are assuming that Paul felt he would leave this world and go directly to heaven. (which I’m not saying he didn’t!) but in light of the Corinthians verse above, I could say that Paul didn’t even feel assured of his own salvation. Yet we know that Scripture doesn’t contradict itself. That’s why you need to consider the whole of Scripture because if you just take individual verses out of context, you would find a lot of contradictions.

I’m not trying to start a scripture for scripture duel, but how do you square that with what the Apostle John wrote:

13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

It is one thing to not be completely sure how much cleansing one may need after they pass away before they enter heaven, but are you saying that Paul was not even sure that he was saved?

 

[thistle]

I’m not trying to start a scripture for scripture duel, but how do you square that with what the Apostle John wrote:

13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

It is one thing to not be completely sure how much cleansing one may need after they pass away before they enter heaven, but are you saying that Paul was not even sure that he was saved?

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711word.asp

 

[banjo]

For quite some time I have seen Purgatory implicitly taught in ‘The Beatitudes’, Mt 5:25-26. “Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.”
The Beatitudes teach us how to live on our pilgrimage to the New Jerusalem. In that light, to what court if not the court of judgment? To what judge if not the Lord? To what prison if not Purgatory? It cannot be Hell for there is no release from that place.

 

[Sandtigress]

I think first, we should state clearly what Purgatory is, because I have often found simple misunderstanding of the teaching to be the root of much opposition to it.

Purgatory is a cleansing before entering into Heaven. If one makes it to Purgatory, that soul is going to Heaven. Purgatory is not some “alternate ending” nor is it a place where a soul can go to either Heaven or Hell - Purgatory leads straight to Heaven.

We know that nothing unclean enters Heaven, and yet we know that we carry baggage from our sinful natures while here on earth, that may or may not still remain when we die. If we are otherwise in a holy state, then Purgatory will cleanse us from the final things that cling to us, allowing us to be pure and clean for entrance into Heaven.

Now, to address Paul’s knowledge of his salvation, here is a passage, while I’m sure others could provide more.

“But whatever gains I had, these I have come to consider a loss becaues of Christ. More than that, I even consider everything as a loss because of the supreme good of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For [Christ’s] sake I have accepted the loss of all things and I consider them so much rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having any righteousness of my own based on the law but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God depending on faith to know him and the power of his resurrection and the sharing of his sufferings if Somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead. It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but if I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ. Brothers, I for my part do not consider myself to have taken possession. Just one thing: forgetting what lies behind but straining forward to what lies ahead I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God’s upward calling in Christ Jesus.” (Phillipians 3:8-15)

 

[Deidre]

It is one thing to not be completely sure how much cleansing one may need after they pass away before they enter heaven, but are you saying that Paul was not even sure that he was saved?

Well, actually I was just trying to point out that individual people can read individual verses out of context and come to different conclusions about what scripture means - thus emphasizing the need to accept what the Church teaches based on the bible as a whole.

But since Catholics don’t believe in once saved always saved, I guess the argument could be made that Paul wasn’t assured of his salvation at the time of that writing. I believe that the Church teaches that salvation is an ongoing process that requires us to cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end.

I trust that if I’m not understanding that correctly or not explaining it correctly, others will jump in and help me out

 

[apophasis]

This verse doesn’t say anything that contradicts Purgatory at all.

Sure it does. It teaches that all the saved through faith in Christ alone (the Pauline gospel) at the time of death go directly to be with Christ. In 2 Cor. 5:6-8 he teaches that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Paul is very consistent on this teaching.

A good verse that points to Purgatory is **1Cor 3:10-17 **(v15). The verse talks about works becoming visable on the DAY (death) and being saved through fire.

1 Cor. 3:10-17 states nothing about the idea of purgatory. Purgatory is about purging/cleansing a soul of venial sins through the merit of one’s own suffering. The fire in 1 Cor. 3 is revelatory, not purgatory. The metaphorical fire is revealing the value of a Christian laborer’s works, and he is rewarded accordingly (3:8). It has nothing to do with sins. The believer’s sins were dealt with judicially and forever through the substitutionary, sin-sacrifice of Christ:Heb 9:26 “…but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”

1 John 3:5 “You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.”“The day” in 1 Cor. 3:13 is not referring to “death,” as you suggest, but the day this judgment of a believer’s works takes place. The context states nothing of it occurring at the time of each individual’s death. “The day” rather speaks of a specific, future event in which all participate at the same time.

 

[heisenburg]

Purgatory…

Simplified but accurate understanding.

For starters… First and Foremost… Purgatory is NOT a place. It is akin to saying someone is in Labor. The person giving birth isn’t in the location called labor, they are in the process called labor

Do you believe that when you sin or have some stain of sin, and then you come to Christ, that you are
Covered in Christ?
Clothed in a white Rob?
Cleansed by his Blood?

After coming to Christ, you sin again, and ask for forgiveness are you not then
Covered in Christ?
Clothed in a white Rob?
Cleansed by his Blood?

Can anything with Sin enter heaven? nope
ok then…
If you die with some stain of sin (as almost all of us will) but you also die in his Grace, will he turn you away? Absolutely not. he will
Cover us with Christ
Clothe us in a white robe
Cleanse us with his blood

And that in a nut shell is purgatory

Purgatory is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT a place… It is a process, like labor.

It is a word used to describe the LAST time we will ever need to be cleansed. It is a result of his Grace and Forgiveness, not in spite of it.

How long does it last? Don’t know… may take years, may be instant. however, it is a mute point

Is it Painful? Maybe not in the way we feel pain now, maybe it will… Again… mute point…

the word Purgatory, Like the word Trinity isn’t found in the bible. But like the word trinity, it is deeply rooted in the bible.

Purgatory is simply the biblical concept of our sins being forgiven and being removed from us one last time.

This IS what purgatory is. Those that want to say purgatory isn’t in the bible have NO idea what purgatory is.

In Christ