Purgatory and Temporal Punishment

[Philthy]

Hi all, I apologise if I’ve posted this in the wrong place (it’s my first thread)!

I think you found the right place!

I’ve been reading up on the above and I just don’t think that I understand the idea of purgatory properly.

You certainly aren’t the first!

In the Old Testament, Exodus 12:19 reads ‘Even the priests, who approach the LORD, must consecrate themselves, or the LORD will break out against them.’ Because of God’s holiness, in the Old Testament He would break out against sin.

Always? I don’t think so…

Much later, Jesus sacrifices Himself and everything changes, then 1 Corinthians 6 reads 'Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God?'So the Spirit of God lives in us

There were others in the OT who were filled with the Holy Spirit as well,

and we had to have been made right with Him in order for that to happen and all the sin was taken away when Jesus died for us. If that’s the case and we have been made sinless in order that God might dwell in us, why is there still temporal punishment and purgatory?

Yes we were “made right” as you say, but certainly not sinless. Have you not read Paul’s letters to the “saved” Christians? They were sinning! So the question becomes, if we sin after being born again - then what? In your theology I’m guessing our sins are irrelevant with respect to our standing with God and with our ability to be in His Presence. You might want to rethink that a bit. In Catholic theology God "saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). We see that as what happens at Baptism, you might see it as having happened when you “accepted Jesus” or whatever but it doesn’t really matter for the discussion at hand. At some point we are born again. The question is what happens when you sin after your born again experience? Catholics believe a number of things happen, but I’ll focus on just one aspect. One thing that happens is that you damage your soul. By choosing some thing over choosing obedience to Our Father we damage our soul and our ability to relate to God. Although we are still redeemed and the Holy Spirit dwells within us, we are no longer perfectly prepared to be in God’s unveiled presence for all eternity. What would happen if we died in such a state (highly likely!)? Catholics believe that we are cleansed (ie Purged) and prepared to be with God for all eternity - they refer to this process as Purgatory. Based upon the merits Christ earned on the Cross for us, we receive a final grace of cleansing our souls and preparing us to be in God’s unveiled presence for all eternity. God doesn’t merely “declare” us Holy based upon Christ, he actually makes us Holy through Christ. It’s awesome! And it makes a lot of sense…

The Holy Spirit couldn’t have lived in us before the crucifixion because of the sin that seperated us from God and it took Jesus’ death for that to change, which is why Jesus said ‘Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you’ in John 16:7.

As I said before, there were plenty of OT folks who had the Holy Spirit filling them and who were righteous in God’s sight - Anna the prophetess is one example.

Any guidance would be hugely appreciated! Thanks

I hope this helps!

 

[Gorgias]

The idea that I would have to ‘do X,Y and Z’ to be forgiven is something that I find very difficult to understand, and so I am continuing to pray into this.

Patch,

A couple others have mentioned this already, but since you noted it again, I think it bears repeating: purgation isn’t about forgiveness of sins. Rather, it’s about the way that sin damages us and others. It’s about restitution, not forgiveness.

In many places, the OT demonstrates the belief that we – as sinful humans – cannot gaze upon the glory of God and live (cf Ex 33:20). Even when people encountered just angels, they feared for their lives (cf Gen 16:13, Gen 32:31, and Judges 13:22). So, even though we might be forgiven by God, and are considered ‘just’ in His eyes, there’s still the notion that we must be perfect in order to behold Him in heaven.

Purgation is all about making those on their way to heaven, ‘perfect’ (or, yes, ‘pure’).

Patch21:

all the sin was taken away when Jesus died for us.

Patch21:

we are sinless because of the death of Christ

The question of the sinlessness of believers is a distinct from the question of purgatory. I think it’s important for you to acknowledge this, or else you’ll continue to have difficulty understanding the explanations that you find here.

The notion that Jesus’ sacrifice makes believers irreversibly sinless is a common Reformation doctrine, but unfortunately, it’s not Scripturally accurate. If I were to ask you, “what’s the first thing that Jesus tells the apostles, in a post-resurrection appearance?”, what would you say? Now, go look at the Gospel of John. In chapter 20, Jesus appears to the apostles “on the evening of the first day of the week.” What does He tell the apostles at this appearance? “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” (John 20:23)

Now, I ask you: at this point, Jesus had already been resurrected, and therefore, he had already “paid the price”. His apostles were his believers, and they had received the Holy Spirit (John 20:22). Now, why in the world would Jesus instruct the apostles to forgive others’ sins? After all, if it was sufficient to be baptized and that wiped away all sins, present and future, then there’d be no need for forgiveness of post-baptismal sin! So, the notion that Jesus’ sacrifice ‘automatically’ rids us of all sins doesn’t hold up to Scriptural scrutiny.

Hope this helps (and, welcome to CAF)!

 

[DavidFilmer]

A GREAT post

vBulletin does not have a “thumbs up” or “+1” rating feature, but I will post here a “smiley” icon, which I usually despise and have posted only ONCE before:

This is the highest praise that I am afforded on CAF.

 

[Gorgias]

Thanks, David…!

 

[Petaro]

So I guess what I’m struggling with is that we are sinless because of the death of Christ yet we are still going to purgatory because of some of those sins? I can’t get my head around it (though maybe after a good night’s sleep I’ll be a little more productive)!

Thanks again!

If we are forgiven for all future sins, why are we not out there sinning boldly as Luther would have it. If we are to believe sin has no consequence because of the action of sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ then we can do what we want as we are saved already. Purgatory aside, surely being a Christian means we have to run the good race to the end and in trying to be in Christ and we are forgiven in our penitence There is still the demands of God’s divine justice to consider. Salvation came to us in the Cross and the Resurrection, But we have to contribute by offering every action to our Christ for His glory…

 

[rfournier103]

But didn’t Jesus die for all sins, even those not yet committed?

So I guess what I’m struggling with is that we are sinless because of the death of Christ yet we are still going to purgatory because of some of those sins? I can’t get my head around it (though maybe after a good night’s sleep I’ll be a little more productive)!

Thanks again!

Good morning, Patch. I’m going to start off by saying that Purgatory isn’t my strongest suit when it comes to apologetics; but there are a few things I would like to address. I would also like to say that all of the other responses are very good, and I will try to “keep up” with the rest of the class as best as I can.

To answer your question; YES! Jesus DID INDEED die for our sins. No doubt. HOWEVER… the VAST MAJORITY of Christians have no idea about the difference between REDEMPTION and SALVATION. This is HUGE!!!

Jesus Christ was Crucified and Rose from the dead for man’s REDEMPTION. Jesus’s Death and Resurrection did NOT AUTOMATICALLY PUNCH OUR TICKET TO HEAVEN. If it did, that would be SALVATION. Not REDEMPTION.

FULL definition and treatment of REDEMPTION from the Catholic Encyclopedia here: newadvent.org/cathen/12677d.htm

FULL definition and treatment of SALVATION from the Catholic Encyclopedia here:
newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm

Jesus opened the door for us; it is up to US to take advantage of it by living according to God’s Law; and partaking in the Sacraments.

If Jesus’s Death and Resurrection were enough; why would He say to His Apostles in John 20:21-23 ~ (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

Mind you; this is AFTER the Resurrection… So, if the Resurrection destroyed ALL sin; why would Jesus Himself have any need to bestow this power upon the Apostles? Because forgiveness is STILL needed.

Patch21:

I guess my biggest fear is that it all feels as though it’s leading towards a ‘grace through works’ approach, and accepting God’s grace and finally realising that I can’t earn it is an aspect of my faith that was something that I personally struggled with for a long time. The idea that I would have to ‘do X,Y and Z’ to be forgiven is something that I find very difficult to understand, and so I am continuing to pray into this.

You needn’t worry about the whole “Grace through Works” approach. That is NOT Catholicism (although many misunderstand it).Real saving faith is demonstrated by good works.
Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation. Lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. True saving faith is always manifested by good works and a life that desires to live in obedience to God. That is the meaning of what James was talking about in James 2:14-26 when he said “faith without works is dead”.

In other words, good works are the effects of Grace through Faith; not the cause.

Lastly, I encourage you to keep coming back and asking questions, Patch. If you’re interested in Catholicism, I also encourage you to obtain a good 73-book Bible. I recommend the Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition. It’s a very good Catholic Bible. Even if you’re just curious about the Church and plan to remain a Baptist, it will give you a better idea about what we’re talking about. The 7 books missing from your Bible are all Old Testament books; the New Testament contain all the same books in the same order.

God bless you and your faith journey.