Purgatory And The After Life.

[Angelo_Michael]

**Another observation of a potential stimulus for the concept of Purgatory may be in the book of Job wherein Job’s sufferings were (wrongly) attributed to a (non-existent) departure from God’s law(s)].

Also, Christ’s message(s) in Luke 13 [seem to] reaffirm the concepts presented in Job:**

1: There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2: And [Christ] answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4: Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

6: He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7: Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8: And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

And the preceding parable, along with others, might infer that the trials experienced in this life are all that one has; and that [a concept of] Purgatory (if referring to a time of ‘suffering’ after death but before the Judgment) is, in essence, perversion and temptation.

e.g. Matthew 25, (et al.), :

1: Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2: And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3: They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5: While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7: Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8: And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9: But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13: Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
14: For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15: And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16: Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17: And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18: But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord’s money.
19: After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20: And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21: His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22: He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23: His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24: Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26: His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28: Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
*29: For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. *
30: And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Justy90]

There are places in the afterlife besides heaven and hell. Jesus speaks about the “bosom of Abraham” where faithful Jews went before Christ opened heaven.

Revelation states that “nothing impure can enter heaven” which necessitates a purification. Even CS Lewis, your fellow believer, acknowledged the necessity of it, though he thought it would be brief (See Mere Christianity).

Also, angels were created before the earth and no one in the presence of God can sin. Yet Lucifer chose against God, becomeing Satan. Therefore, the angels must have been in a place not-quite-heaven when they made their choice.

No, the bible does not say “There is a purgatory and he is how long you will be there”, but logic demands some kind of balancing of God’s mercy with His justice.

Also, the bible is not a catechism. It is a collection of inspired writings defined by the the Spirit-led Church, not visa versa.

 

[Justy90]

Scripture does tell of Purgatory. I don’t have the actual quote but I think Purgatory is referred to in one or more of the books of Maccabees. This is probably one of the reasons the Maccabees books were not include in the King James bible. Therefore, get thee a Catholic bible if you want to read about Purgatory.

I am well aware of apocryphal writings that are used by Catholics to try and justify Purgatory’s existence. The problem is that Purgatory isn’t even mentioned by Jesus in the Gospels nor is it shown in any other parts of Scripture.

Purgatory was not part of the Early Church early on and like much of the Catholic dogmas and doctrine, it was added later on (sometime during the 5th century). The indulgences surrounding loved ones in Purgatory as mentioned by Rome in the years just before the building of St. Peter’s Basillica was very much responsible for the funding of the building.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

From the US Lutheran / Catholic dialgue about the subject of Purgatory, this

usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-212.shtml

My personal view is, if I, as a Lutheran, can define Purgatory as a momentary cleansing of all the vestiges of sin, at the time of death, as Father Tavard does here, then to me Purgatory is no longer a church-dividing issue.

Jon

Great post as always, Jon. I think more Protestants have issues with indulgences than they do purgatory, to follow the flow of your post. I think the idea of getting “time of your sentence” seems to cheapen or muddy the waters of what purgatory is in the minds of many Protestants. Indulgences seem like legal technicalities to get time off a sentence in the afterlife. I don’t think purgatory, the idea of purging the effects of temporal sins’ consequences is the big problem, indulgences are more of the problem. That’s just a hunch. I might be wrong.

 

[Justy90]

Great post as always, Jon. I think more Protestants have issues with indulgences than they do purgatory, to follow the flow of your post. I think the idea of getting “time of your sentence” seems to cheapen or muddy the waters of what purgatory is in the minds of many Protestants. Indulgences seem like legal technicalities to get time off a sentence in the afterlife. I don’t think purgatory, the idea of purging the effects of temporal sins’ consequences is the big problem, indulgences are more of the problem. That’s just a hunch. I might be wrong.

Glad to see you here as always Gurney. For me it is the whole premise of Purgatory. The definition of it as defined by the Catholic church just leaves me scratching my head. To purge away the effects of temporal sin. What in the world is this and its significance in light of Christ’s sacrifice? Didn’t Jesus do enough? Isn’t forgiveness enough? If not then what is enough and how do we know? It really starts to go right off the cliff if we try to add onto what Christ did or make it a requirement somehow to have to do more to win salvation. Frankly I find no basis for it and in fact I find opposition to it in Scripture.

 

[Reuben_J]

Glad to see you here as always Gurney. For me it is the whole premise of Purgatory. The definition of it as defined by the Catholic church just leaves me scratching my head. To purge away the effects of temporal sin. What in the world is this and its significance in light of Christ’s sacrifice? Didn’t Jesus do enough? Isn’t forgiveness enough? If not then what is enough and how do we know? It really starts to go right off the cliff if we try to add onto what Christ did or make it a requirement somehow to have to do more to win salvation. Frankly I find no basis for it and in fact I find opposition to it in Scripture.

Frankly one can find no basis why purgatory is not supported by Scripture. Scrupture points to purgatory.

 

[Selene]

Glad to see you here as always Gurney. For me it is the whole premise of Purgatory. The definition of it as defined by the Catholic church just leaves me scratching my head. To purge away the effects of temporal sin. What in the world is this and its significance in light of Christ’s sacrifice? Didn’t Jesus do enough? Isn’t forgiveness enough? If not then what is enough and how do we know? It really starts to go right off the cliff if we try to add onto what Christ did or make it a requirement somehow to have to do more to win salvation. Frankly I find no basis for it and in fact I find opposition to it in Scripture.

Catholics also believe that the merits of Jesus’ death on the cross suffices for the total remission of sins. Despite his death, however, all people are still sinners. To say that we are no longer sinners is false and even a sin. God is constantly at work throughout our lives to “purge” us of sin. Catholics blieve that God completes this purifying work after a person’s death for those whose lives on earth have been oriented toward God and His Will. Purgatory is not a second chance for salvation for those who have rejected God or have lived evil lives. Neither is it a safety net for peolpe who hope that God will overlook serious sin in their lives if they die unrepentant. Rather, Purgatory is a sign of God’s mercy toward those who have honestly sought to know God and to do His Will in this life, and yet who die in some degree of bondage to sin or the effects of sin.

Yes, Jesus’ death forgave all sins, but people are still sinners; therefore, it is important to repent those sins and be converted. If a person dies in some bondage of sin, this sin and its effects must be removed or purged before the person can see God face-to-face because God is so pure and holy that nothing impure or sinful can enter into his presence ( Rev. 21:27).

Purgatory means that as a person is drawn nearer to God and finally drawin into the full glory of his presence, the remaining sin in a person’s life is just burned away by the consuming fire of God’s hatred of sin and his love for one bound by it. Sin is purged because it cannot exist in the presence of the all-holy God.

This understanding of God’s holiness and he purging from sin is indicated in some biblical texts. For example, the prophet Isaiah had a vision of God upon a throne with the angels surrounding him crying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts.” (Is. 6:1-3) Isaiah’s immediae response was “Woe is me!..For I am a man of unclean lips…for my eyes have seen…the Lord of hosts!” (Is 6:5). But the Lord sent an angel to purify Isaiah’s lips with a burning coal from the altar of God. “And he touched my mouth, and said, ‘Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.’” (Is. 6:7) Only then was Isaiah able to speak the Word of God to the people.

The belief in Purgatory is also supported in the ancient Christian practice of praying for the dead. Although you may believe that the Second Book of Maccabees is an apocrophyia, the truth is that the early Christians did pray for the dead. The first Christians were Jewish. Judas Maccabees was a Jew who said a prayer of petition for the dead asking God to forgive the sins of his soldiers who died in battle. The only way that prayers for the dead can be of any good or can be praiseworthy is if they actually do some spiritual good. If a person is in Hell, no prayers can help him; if he is in Heaven, no prayers are needed. This praying for the dead is found in Judaism and goes all the way back to biblical times. Today, the Jews still pray for the dead just as the early Christians did.

 

[JonNC]

Frankly one can find no basis why purgatory is not supported by Scripture. Scrupture points to purgatory.

I think no one can find no basis for a cleansing prior to entering heaven. The question is the seeming variance of expressions of how that takes place. And as Gurney said, the issue of indulgences, length of stay, etc., leaves many of us feeling like the doctrine is a moving target.

Jon

 

[Techno2000]

Has anyone come back from the dead with a story of Purgatory? What is the difference of Purgatory and Hell? I have been doing some reading on Purgatory and it seems like a scary place. Thank you.

ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/CATPUR.TXT
my.homewithgod.com/gertrude/purgatory/
trumpetersmission.com/messages_purgatory.php

 

[FCEGM]

St. Catherine of Genoa’s “Treatise on Purgatory”, offers a helpful perspective; an excerpt:

What is the joy of the souls in Purgatory. A comparison to shew how they see God ever more and more. The difficulty of speaking of this state.

I believe no happiness can be found worthy to be compared with that of a soul in Purgatory except that of the saints in Paradise; and day by day this happiness grows as God flows into these souls, more and more as the hindrance to His entrance is consumed. Sin’s rust is the hindrance, and the fire burns the rust away so that more and more the soul opens itself up to the divine inflowing. A thing which is covered cannot respond to the sun’s rays, not because of any defect in the sun, which is shining all the time, but because the cover is an obstacle; if the cover be burnt away, this thing is open to the sun; more and more as the cover is consumed does it respond to the rays of the sun

It is in this way that rust, which is sin, covers souls, and in Purgatory is burnt away by fire; the more it is consumed, the more do the souls respond to God, the true sun. As the rust lessens and the soul is opened up to the divine ray, happiness grows; until the time be accomplished the one wanes and the other waxes.

cfpeople.org/apologetics/page51a013.html

 

[Reuben_J]

I think no one can find no basis for a cleansing prior to entering heaven.

The question is the seeming variance of expressions of how that takes place. And as Gurney said, the issue of indulgences, length of stay, etc., leaves many of us feeling like the doctrine is a moving target.

Jon

Sadly, it is much ado about nothing since purgatory has nothing to do with them in the first place and so it not the question at all.

 

[JonNC]

:
Sadly, it is much ado about nothing since purgatory has nothing to do with them in the first place and so it not the question at all.

Ok, Rueben. So, if I say that I can accept the idea of Purgatory if explained as a momentary or instantaneous cleansing of the vestiges of sin, at the moment of death, prior to entering heaven, because of and by the Grace of Christ, that is acceptable in the CC?

Jon

 

[Reuben_J]

Ok, Rueben. So, if I say that I can accept the idea of Purgatory if explained as a momentary or instantaneous cleansing of the vestiges of sin, at the moment of death, prior to entering heaven, because of and by the Grace of Christ, that is acceptable in the CC?

Jon

It should be acceptable Jon. There is a little problem there when you mention instantaneous because it is as if you’re defining the duration in purgatory. Well, I thought you did not. And yes, the expiation is instantaneous because once a person dies he has to go somewhere, doesn’t he?

As long as we don’t try to speculate how long the duration is, and whether one goes to purgatory or straight to heaven. These we wouldn’t know.

You are very close to us, you know. :hug3:

 

[RuthErickson]

Sorry for the confusion. I know about the doctrine of Purgatory. I was wondering if anyone who has gone to purgatory has ever gone there and came back to life to talk about. I mean in an afterlife experience.

 

[aldog85]

Being a recent convert to Catholicism I am happy to have learned about purgatory. Growing up Assembly of God I was always afraid that if I died and had one too many sins, not mortal, I would probably go to Hell if I had not confessed my sins in time. I for one know I need purgatory.

 

[The_Way]

I don’t believe any book actually discusses purgatory…the passage in Maccabees you refer to concerns praying for the dead. Purgatory in Catholic belief is “implied” through various scriptures but never actually defined as “purgatory”.

Why did they pray for the dead if there is no other place besides Heaven and Hell?

God bless,

 

[4EverHis]

Purgatory is only for those who die in a state of God’s grace (are saved) but who are not yet perfect… in purgatory, they get perfected so they can love God and be with Him for all eternity. If they were put in Heaven right at death, they would not be able to be there in God’s presence… because they dont yet know how to love Him perfectly, and because the effects of sin are still in their soul (though the sins are forgiven). These effects would be worldly attachments, etc. Purgatory is the “cleaning up” before Heaven… taking away anything that would prevent us from living in total union with God.

I think the reason why Protestants don’t generally believe in Purgatory is because they don’t believe in infused righteousness like Catholics do. We believe our sins aren’t just covered…but washed away. We aren’t sinners who appear to be perfect…we are to be perfected, by Christ’s merits and grace (cooperation with grace).

God bless

 

[Gem]

" A very man made mechanical statement. The Bible is the collection of God inspired writings and it is certainly not subject to the limited understanding of humans and therefore it is no way a catechism, you are right about that in a reciprocal sort of way. And the Spirit led Church compiled the writings, they did not create them. This seems to be a gross misunderstanding amongst Catholics."

I’m not sure what you mean by “create”, but it’s really irrelevant to my point. The Church existed with a body of beliefs before the Bible was compiled. The Bible was selected as being the group of extant writings judged to be inspired. There was no intention to select a work explicitly containing each and every belief of the Church. That’s why Holy Tradition (this is not the “tradition of men”) and the Magisterium (teaching authority) matter. The Church pre-existed the Bible and the Bible, true as it is, is not required to contain all that is true.

 

[Gem]

I am well aware of apocryphal writings that are used by Catholics to try and justify Purgatory’s existence. The problem is that Purgatory isn’t even mentioned by Jesus in the Gospels nor is it shown in any other parts of Scripture.

Purgatory was not part of the Early Church early on and like much of the Catholic dogmas and doctrine, it was added later on (sometime during the 5th century). The indulgences surrounding loved ones in Purgatory as mentioned by Rome in the years just before the building of St. Peter’s Basillica was very much responsible for the funding of the building.

How can something be “apocryphal” when it was part of the Bible from the beginning? It doesn’t matter that it was written in Greek instead of Hebrew. The same Councils that defined the four Gospels you read today (and eliminated Gnostic works) declared those books to be inspired.

Also, just because a belief is formally defined later doesn’t mean that it wasn’t believed before. Doctrines are often not defined until they are challenged. (e.g. full divinity and full humanity of Christ in the Nicene Creed).

 

[elvisman]

I am well aware of apocryphal writings that are used by Catholics to try and justify Purgatory’s existence. The problem is that Purgatory isn’t even mentioned by Jesus in the Gospels nor is it shown in any other parts of Scripture.

Purgatory was not part of the Early Church early on and like much of the Catholic dogmas and doctrine, it was added later on (sometime during the 5th century). The indulgences surrounding loved ones in Purgatory as mentioned by Rome in the years just before the building of St. Peter’s Basillica was very much responsible for the funding of the building.

As usual, Justy - you’re WRONG when it comes to understanding historic Catholic beliefs. Protestants can quibble all day long about whether the word, “Purgatory” is in Scripture or in the Early church writings. “Bible” and “Trinity” are not in Scripture either. However, the concept of Purgatory was taught from the beginning:

Clement of Alexandria
**The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, “yet” etc. (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 A.D. 150-215]). **

Origen
If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 A.D. 185-232]).

Tertullian
That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 A.D. 210]).
The faithful widow prays for the soul of her husband, and begs for him in the interim repose, and participation in the first resurrection, and offers prayers on the anniversary of his death (Monogamy 10 A.D. 213]).

Cyprian
It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 A.D. 253]).