Purgatory and the Economy of Salvation

[jnpl1185]

Hello all, I’ve been trying to wrap my brain about this topic for a while and I was hoping someone might be able to help me understand and fill in the holes that the Catechism doesn’t cover in entirety. Coming from the Lutheran tradition, some notions are simply kind of foreign to me, so I will do my best to lay out the cause of my confusion

I understand that RCs believe that it is possible for someone to die and go straight to heaven without the need to be purified or punished in purgatory. This seems to mean that, by the efficacy of our own works and reception of the sacraments, we can 1.) merit a place in heaven and 2.) overcome and purify our sinful natures to an extent that no blemish remains. Is this correct so far?

This would seem to mean that Original Sin is not a perversion of our natures (as per the Lutheran tradition) but only the contracted guilt from Adam’s fall. But I’ve heard two explanations of our sinful natures from Roman Catholics which seem (to me) at odds. The first is the Augustinian view that our natures are entirely and inherently perverse and rebellious against God. This would seem to mean that a final purification of our natures would be necessary before entering heaven, no matter how good your works have been. (?)

The second is that our actual sins and sinful natures can be compared to a wound or scar left by Original Sin, which may be healed by works and the sacraments. This means that purification of nature is not necessary, but only of evil deeds and their influence on our souls. If this is the case, though, what is to be said of instincts and internal lusts and wants? Do Roman Catholics believe these can actually be fully erased from our being through works and sacraments so that they no longer exist? This seems counter-intuitive to me, as it seems that the results are punished and/or purified in Purgatory, not the cause.

Thanks in advance for the clarification!

 

[FightingFat]

I understand that RCs believe that it is possible for someone to die and go straight to heaven without the need to be purified or punished in purgatory. This seems to mean that, by the efficacy of our own works and reception of the sacraments, we can 1.) merit a place in heaven and 2.) overcome and purify our sinful natures to an extent that no blemish remains. Is this correct so far?

No, I don’t think so. Firstly, good works are the fruits of grace, they don’t buy you anything. It is by grace we enter into communion with God the Holy Trinity. If one dies in a state of perfect grace, e.g. a child, before the age of reason, then their souls are united with God, but this is different to “being in Heaven”, because they do not have bodies. Rather they are joined to God; their minds are “blown” by God, but their faculties are limited as a disembodied soul, because we are hylomorphic beings (body-soul composite).

This would seem to mean that Original Sin is not a perversion of our natures (as per the Lutheran tradition) but only the contracted guilt from Adam’s fall. But I’ve heard two explanations of our sinful natures from Roman Catholics which seem (to me) at odds. The first is the Augustinian view that our natures are entirely and inherently perverse and rebellious against God. This would seem to mean that a final purification of our natures would be necessary before entering heaven, no matter how good your works have been. (?)

Augustine went too far in his quarrel with Pelagius and over-stressed Original Sin, for a reason. You may note that the Church followed Augustine so far, but did not take up this idea of a complete perversion of nature. Augustine was held back from reasoning to the Immaculate Conception because of this over-emphasis. If you look at the problem through the mystery of our Blessed Mother you might understand it better?

The second is that our actual sins and sinful natures can be compared to a wound or scar left by Original Sin, which may be healed by works and the sacraments. This means that purification of nature is not necessary, but only of evil deeds and their influence on our souls. If this is the case, though, what is to be said of instincts and internal lusts and wants? Do Roman Catholics believe these can actually be fully erased from our being through works and sacraments so that they no longer exist? This seems counter-intuitive to me, as it seems that the results are punished and/or purified in Purgatory, not the cause.

Thanks in advance for the clarification!

Our appetites are good, we choose to use them for good or for evil.

 

[jnpl1185]

No, I don’t think so. Firstly, good works are the fruits of grace, they don’t buy you anything. It is by grace we enter into communion with God the Holy Trinity. If one dies in a state of perfect grace, e.g. a child, before the age of reason, then their souls are united with God, but this is different to “being in Heaven”, because they do not have bodies. Rather they are joined to God; their minds are “blown” by God, but their faculties are limited as a disembodied soul, because we are hylomorphic beings (body-soul composite).

So what about the question of our natures? We are not inherently perverse?

Our appetites are good, we choose to use them for good or for evil.

This seems to oversimplify human nature, doesn’t it? This assumes we have one monolithic appetite or drive and we choose how to “route” that appetite, as pipelines route and reroute water. This assumes we don’t have individual drives such as sexual drives, drives for food, comfort, warmth, etc. These all seem to be different in essence, not only in how they the one drive is implemented. It also assumes that we can keep ourselves from having sinful thoughts–even if we try to control those thoughts, they are still there. Wouldn’t you agree?

But in any case, it goes back to concupiscence not being sinful in itself, I suppose–so I can have random dirty thoughts for example, and that is not counted as sinful if I try to control it, right?

 

[jnpl1185]

So will we still have concupiscence when we face God in heaven?

 

[SirChing]

In my opinion (and that is all it is), this is the way it works:

Original Sin prevents us from attaining heaven. Through Baptism, Original Sin (and any sin committed up until that point) is removed and we are able to enter Heaven. Even though the stain of Original Sin has been removed, we have an inclination to sin again.

Once we sin, our sins are again removed (forgiven) through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. However, there is still a small wound left behind from each sin even after reconciliation. When we die, we have to spend time in purgatory to pay the debt for each sin committed after baptism. Once we have been cleansed, we are able to enter heaven.

We are able to reduce our time in Purgatory by performing great works in the name of the Lord and living a Holy life. Some people’s works are so great that they overcome their entire sin debt before death and they go directly to Heaven. These are our saints.

I am sure there is a lot more I could say or perhaps details I am missing, but that is the gist of what I think our faith tells us.

I can’t imagine we will still have concupiscence when we face God in heaven. Sin and thoughts of sin are seperations from God. Heaven is being totally in the presence of God. The two things are exclusive of each other.

Back to the actual question, I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with our nature that must be purified in Purgatory. While we are inclined to sin, we have free will and our Church with its Sacraments and Mass to help us not to sin and/or to do works to expiate our sins.

 

[jnpl1185]

I can’t imagine we will still have concupiscence when we face God in heaven. Sin and thoughts of sin are seperations from God. Heaven is being totally in the presence of God. The two things are exclusive of each other.

Back to the actual question, I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong with our nature that must be purified in Purgatory. While we are inclined to sin, we have free will and our Church with its Sacraments and Mass to help us not to sin and/or to do works to expiate our sins.

Thanks for your answer–but isn’t concupiscence part of our nature post-fall which would have to be removed if we do not have it when we face God? If Purgatory is punishment for deeds as such and not purification of nature, how would we get rid of concupiscence?

 

[pablope]

Thanks for your answer–but isn’t concupiscence part of our nature post-fall which would have to be removed if we do not have it when we face God? If Purgatory is punishment for deeds as such and not purification of nature, how would we get rid of concupiscence?

Through the regular practice of confession. I read this from Scott Hahn’s Lord Have Mercy, which I recommend. Your question is really tied up to the sacrament of confession and how it could heal our souls/selves.

Through confession, we continue to purge our selves of sins and our sinful nature, and as we grow and mature in our lives in Christ, we can grow towards a more unitive state of grace, which is towards sainthood.

Some do bypass purgatory, the saints, by the lives they lived here. Purgatory is not a punishment, as is commonly seen, but a process of purgation. How this is, I think remains a mystery.

I will re-check Hahn’s book and post again later. I remember it did discuss concupisence, which is where I first heard this term.

God bless.

 

[Tomster]

Hello all, I’ve been trying to wrap my brain about this topic for a while and I was hoping someone might be able to help me understand and fill in the holes that the Catechism doesn’t cover in entirety. Coming from the Lutheran tradition, some notions are simply kind of foreign to me, so I will do my best to lay out the cause of my confusion

I understand that RCs believe that it is possible for someone to die and go straight to heaven without the need to be purified or punished in purgatory. This seems to mean that, by the efficacy of our own works and reception of the sacraments, we can 1.) merit a place in heaven and 2.) overcome and purify our sinful natures to an extent that no blemish remains. Is this correct so far?

This would seem to mean that Original Sin is not a perversion of our natures (as per the Lutheran tradition) but only the contracted guilt from Adam’s fall. But I’ve heard two explanations of our sinful natures from Roman Catholics which seem (to me) at odds. The first is the Augustinian view that our natures are entirely and inherently perverse and rebellious against God. This would seem to mean that a final purification of our natures would be necessary before entering heaven, no matter how good your works have been. (?)

The second is that our actual sins and sinful natures can be compared to a wound or scar left by Original Sin, which may be healed by works and the sacraments. This means that purification of nature is not necessary, but only of evil deeds and their influence on our souls. If this is the case, though, what is to be said of instincts and internal lusts and wants? Do Roman Catholics believe these can actually be fully erased from our being through works and sacraments so that they no longer exist? This seems counter-intuitive to me, as it seems that the results are punished and/or purified in Purgatory, not the cause.

Thanks in advance for the clarification!

The teaching of the Church about Purgatory centers around two dogmas:

(1) there is a place or status of expiation in the after life called purgatory

(2) the souls detained there can be helped by the faithful on earth

No soul with any taint of sin is fit for the presence of God. But since a just man can die with with some stain of sin, he must be purified before admission into heaven. Hence there is opportunity of expiation after death. We gather from the book of Machabees that prayers and sacrifices are helpful to the dead. The existence of purgatory has often been officially asserted by the Church: to the Waldensians, to the Armenians, to the Greeks. Luther was condemned for saying that it could be proved from Scripture and the Church incorporated it into its profession of faith.

The departed soul can be defiled by unforgiven venial sin, or by the remains of sin or the inclination to sin caused by past sinning, or by a debt of temporal punishment. The soul is quickly relieved of the first two kinds of defilement. For, according to St. Thomas Aquinas, immediately after its judgment the soul elicits a most fervent and enduring act of love of God. This intense charity removes from the soul any obstacle to forgiveness, which God readily grants. The remains of sin, which are rooted in the body, disappear once soul and body are separated. The remains of sin, which are rooted in the soul, are purged by the intense charity with which the soul yearns for God. Hence what remains to be done in purgatory is full payment of the penalties due from past sins.

Since the soul has entered the night wherein no man can work, it cannot pay its debt by satisfaction. All that the soul can do to promote its release is to suffer the penalties appointed by the justice of God.

The most grievous pain is separation from God. Drawn to God most vehemently, the soul finds itself shut away from its one true love by its own unworthiness. The only suffering more acute is that of the damned who know that their frustration is eternal. That the soul in purgatory suffers other pains, inflicted by God, is also true. Are these caused by fire? The Church has made no pronouncement on the matter, but from the time of St. Augustine the Latin Fathers and great theologians have taught this doctrine. Some interpret this fire as interior sufferings similar to those which the saints and mystics endure on earth. At any rate the sufferings of purgatory are very grievous; but, despite its sufferings, the soul is at peace; it knows that it is saved and is no longer capable of sinning.

cont.

 

[jnpl1185]

So in other words, Roman Catholics believe that the sacraments actually transform people’s core nature? What about those who confess regularly and still cannot seem to avoid committing the same sins even after genuinely trying?

Thanks!

 

[Tomster]

Practically the same documents which prove the existence of purgatory also show that the sufferings of of purgatory are lessened on account of the supplications to the divine clemency made by the Church Militant. A function of of the Communion of Saints is the help afforded the suffering souls by the faithful on earth. They do this through works of satisfaction, especially prayers, indulgences, and the Mass. How much penalty is remitted on account of these petitions and how much each soul must suffer is known only to God.

Since all temporal punishment will be expiated by the time of the general judgment, purgatory will then cease.

 

[Tomster]

So in other words, Roman Catholics believe that the sacraments actually transform people’s core nature? What about those who confess regularly and still cannot seem to avoid committing the same sins even after genuinely trying?

Thanks!

True. In Baptism a human being is spiritually regenerated.

Fasting, almsgiving and prayer and then more prayer. Recidivism is falling into the same sin after many confessions thereof and showing little or no improvement. Absolution is not refused on this account (though as a matter of discipline it MAY be deferred) even though the confessor expects him to sin again, unless he judges that the offender is nursing affection for the sin and has not here and now a firm purpose of amendment.

 

[jnpl1185]

That would seem to mean that confession does not transform nature or habit, though.

 

[fhansen]

So will we still have concupiscence when we face God in heaven?

Concupiscence, for one thing means “disordered desire”. But in heaven our desire will be ordered -as it will be first and foremost centered on God. This is mans justice, to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. So our injustice consists in the opposite of this. And the grace of God is the missing link in the equation.

If we lack sanctifying grace, we lack the ability to love as we should. So Original Sin consists of this injustice, this lack of grace/love. To the extent that we’re not totally sold out to God, loving Him as we should, we’re not yet purified-not yet fully just. Purgatory, IMO, is where the Potter puts the finishing touches on the clay, working on our wills, since He desires our cooperation in our justification, i.e,. He wants us to choose to love, having come to know, through grace and the totality of our experiences in life- and purgatory if need be- the reason why obedience to love is the highest virtue, something Adam & Eve apparently didn’t get.

 

[Tomster]

That would seem to mean that confession does not transform nature or habit, though.

After receiving the sacramental grace given to us in confession the individual must do his part, co-operating with that God given grace, to sin no more.

 

[jnpl1185]

So the Crucifixion was sufficient for justifying concupiscence, which is the result of original sin, but not for our actual sins committed on a day to day basis?

 

[Tomster]

After receiving the sacramental grace given to us in confession the individual must do his part, co-operating with that God given grace, to sin no more.

That would seem to mean that confession does not transform nature or habit, though.

One must understand that once the the minister places the valid sacramental sign, the effect is infallible - grace is given provided the recipient puts no obstacle to its flow.

 

[Tomster]

So the Crucifixion was sufficient for justifying concupiscence, which is the result of original sin, but not for our actual sins committed on a day to day basis?

What Jesus did to save us and the merits He won for us are, in theological terms, the objective redemption. The individual, however, does not automatically share in these benefits. It is not enough that the price of sin be paid for the race. In addition every man must be purified of the effects which sin has had upon him and be made over supernaturally. He must be reborn to God through union with Christ, be healed of the wounds of sin, be made fit for the vision of God. This process is his sanctification or the subjective redemption.

 

[Tomster]

So the Crucifixion was sufficient for justifying concupiscence, which is the result of original sin, but not for our actual sins committed on a day to day basis?

God demands human co-operation in the work of sanctification. For, as St. Augustine observes: “He who made you without your knowing it, does not justify you without your willing it.” Therefore every man must freely approach the means of salvation won by the Cross and apply them to himself

 

[Hecares]

If you click on encyclopedia at the top of the Catholic answers home page, you can look up concupiscence, or just about any subject, for that matter. Here is an excerpt from the article:

“Our belief is that Adam came from the hands of his Creator good and free from the assaults of the flesh” (Lib. de Incarn., c. vi). In our first parents, however, this complete dominion of reason over appetite was no natural perfection or acquirement, but a preternatural gift of God, that is, a gift not due to human nature; nor was it, on the other hand, the essence of their original justice, which consisted in sanctifying grace; it was but a complement added to the latter by the Divine bounty. By the sin of Adam freedom from concupiscence was forfeited not only for himself, but also for all his posterity with the exception of the Blessed Virgin by special privilege. Human nature was deprived of both its preternatural and supernatural gifts and graces, the lower appetite began to lust against the spirit, and evil habits, contracted by personal sins, wrought disorder in the body, obscured the mind, and weakened the power of the will, without, however, destroying its freedom. Hence that lamentable condition of which St. Paul complains when he writes: “I find then a law, that when I have a will to do good, evil is present with me. For I am delighted with the law of God, according to the inward man: but I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin, that is in my members. Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Rom., vii, 21-25). Christ by His death redeemed mankind from sin and its bondage. In baptism the guilt of original sin is wiped out and the soul is cleansed and justified again by the infusion of sanctifying grace. But freedom from concupiscence is not restored to man, any more than immortality; abundant grace, however, is given him, by which he may obtain the victory over rebellious sense and deserve life everlasting. "

 

[fhansen]

So the Crucifixion was sufficient for justifying concupiscence, which is the result of original sin, but not for our actual sins committed on a day to day basis?

I’m not sure what “justifying concupiscence” means. In any case God wants us at the point where we’ll fall no more. We can be reconciled with Him through the Cross, but that in no way guarantees we remain righteous -so we’re a work in progress.​