Purgatory and the old testament

[seek_the_truth]

I just have a question regarding purgatory, and all scriptural supports in the Old testament…

There have been a few scriptural references to purgatory in the Old testament, and I was just wondering why you are able to use these as support for purgatory. Before the death of christ it was not possible for people to get to heaven, aside from a few which God took himself. Purgatory is where we are purged our stain of sin right? How could old testament believers go to purgatory to be purged of sins that were never forgiven? Sins could only be forgiven after the death of Christ, and to say otherwise would be to deny his substitional sacrifice…

In addition, did the old testament Hebrews even believe in the doctrine of purgatory? I have read up some on beliefs of the pharasees and saducees, but have found nothing that would lead me to believe this…

 

[Old_Scholar]

That’s a manufactured doctrine.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I just have a question regarding purgatory, and all scriptural supports in the Old testament…

There have been a few scriptural references to purgatory in the Old testament, and I was just wondering why you are able to use these as support for purgatory. Before the death of christ it was not possible for people to get to heaven, aside from a few which God took himself.

Couple things. like you said, Christ’s Resurrection opened the doors to heaven in both directions, so it is perfectly wholesome for those at the time and for us now to pray for all the dead. Our prayers can transcend time. Padre Pio often prayed for people who died years and years ago because he knew his prayers today could be effective as God, who is outside of time, so chooses.

As well, and this is my personal observation, when Christ preached to the Spirits during his time “in the tomb”, I don’t see why some of those people still might not have been saved as through fire (1 Cor. 3:15)

 

[jwashu]

I just have a question regarding purgatory, and all scriptural supports in the Old testament…

There have been a few scriptural references to purgatory in the Old testament, and I was just wondering why you are able to use these as support for purgatory. Before the death of christ it was not possible for people to get to heaven, aside from a few which God took himself. Purgatory is where we are purged our stain of sin right? How could old testament believers go to purgatory to be purged of sins that were never forgiven? Sins could only be forgiven after the death of Christ, and to say otherwise would be to deny his substitional sacrifice…

In addition, did the old testament Hebrews even believe in the doctrine of purgatory? I have read up some on beliefs of the pharasees and saducees, but have found nothing that would lead me to believe this…

Do you understanding God and Heaven to be outside of what we consider linear time? If yes then the answer will make sense, if not… that’s a bigger issue I guess.

If God is outside of time, and Christ as Fully Human and Fully God, then His Sacrafice on the Cross is both and Earthly (in time) and Heavenly (outside of time) event.

Thus when Christ said, No man come to the Father except through me, He was quite serious The scriptures tell us that He went to Abraham’s Bousam and took the rightous. Those were the people who did God will in linear time before the Cross. Remember that they were forgiven of their sin, ultimatly through Christ but also through their following the Judaic Law and performing their “thank offerings.” or Eucharist.

I also wouldn’t say that sin can only be forgiven through Christ. That is how God choose to do it but He could have done it anyway He wanted.

In regards to purgatory then it comes from references to God’s Holy Fire. Remember that God appeard to Moses as the burning bush, He protected Israel through the Pillar of Fire etc… In todays world we often see Fire associated with Hell (Fire and Brimstone!) but there are many places that refer to God’s radience as “burning.” Thus purgation, of the remaining sins, is just that… a clensing. Personally I believe people get too hung up on this… since it’s outside of time, my guess is that it will be a momentary thing, like a decontamation chamber before Heaven (it’s outside of “time” remember?)

Thus the notion of souls “still in purgatory” is a little misleading to me and makes little sense. They may still be in purgatory in our sense, but would they be in “theirs”… who knows.

Joe

 

[seek_the_truth]

Do you understanding God and Heaven to be outside of what we consider linear time? If yes then the answer will make sense, if not… that’s a bigger issue I guess.

If God is outside of time, and Christ as Fully Human and Fully God, then His Sacrafice on the Cross is both and Earthly (in time) and Heavenly (outside of time) event.

Thus when Christ said, No man come to the Father except through me, He was quite serious The scriptures tell us that He went to Abraham’s Bousam and took the rightous. Those were the people who did God will in linear time before the Cross. Remember that they were forgiven of their sin, ultimatly through Christ but also through their following the Judaic Law and performing their “thank offerings.” or Eucharist.

I also wouldn’t say that sin can only be forgiven through Christ. That is how God choose to do it but He could have done it anyway He wanted.

In regards to purgatory then it comes from references to God’s Holy Fire. Remember that God appeard to Moses as the burning bush, He protected Israel through the Pillar of Fire etc… In todays world we often see Fire associated with Hell (Fire and Brimstone!) but there are many places that refer to God’s radience as “burning.” Thus purgation, of the remaining sins, is just that… a clensing. Personally I believe people get too hung up on this… since it’s outside of time, my guess is that it will be a momentary thing, like a decontamation chamber before Heaven (it’s outside of “time” remember?)

Thus the notion of souls “still in purgatory” is a little misleading to me and makes little sense. They may still be in purgatory in our sense, but would they be in “theirs”… who knows.

Joe

So your saying that it was possible for old testament believers to be forgiven of their sins when they died, regardless of the fact, that they lived and died before the time of Christ’s redemption?

I might have to PM you on this one

 

[johnco]

hi,

Christ Himself forgave sins before he died.

" go in peace, your sins are forgiven you"
“rise and walk your sins are forgiven you”

God bless,

johnco

 

[seek_the_truth]

Thanks for all the replies, they are much appreciated.

God Bless!

 

[Ilroy]

I just have a question regarding purgatory, and all scriptural supports in the Old testament…

There have been a few scriptural references to purgatory in the Old testament, and I was just wondering why you are able to use these as support for purgatory. Before the death of christ it was not possible for people to get to heaven, aside from a few which God took himself. Purgatory is where we are purged our stain of sin right? How could old testament believers go to purgatory to be purged of sins that were never forgiven? Sins could only be forgiven after the death of Christ, and to say otherwise would be to deny his substitional sacrifice…

In addition, did the old testament Hebrews even believe in the doctrine of purgatory? I have read up some on beliefs of the pharasees and saducees, but have found nothing that would lead me to believe this…

There were none that God took to heaven Himself before the death and resurrection of Christ. When it said they were taken to paradise or something similar, it would have been referring to taking them to the bussom of Abraham or the Limbo of the fathers or the “waiting room” for Heaven to be opened up to us.

As for the beliefs of the OT Jews, there were differing beliefs on many things and I’m sure purgatory was one of them. Remember that some of them didn’t believe in the resurrection of the body either. Trying to find any one universal belief on a given subject among the OT Jews will be a futile exercise.

As for forgiveness of sins before Christ, as was said previously, God is outside of time and His sacrifice on the cross could be applied to all of us, before and after His earthly life and death.
Luke 1 is a great example of this:
46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Jesus had yet to be born let alone die for our forgiveness, but Mary called Him her savior. How could He have been her savior yet if He hadn’t died and risen? Because His sacrifice could be applied outside of time to all generations.

 

[JMBNH]

Also the Purgatory could have been to get people into the Limbo of the Fathers (or Bosom of Abraham) to await Jesus as opposed to into Heaven straight away