Purgatory + binding & loosing

[Ambrosian]

Dearly beloved,

A blessed and holy Sunday…

Does the power of the Bishop of Rome to bind and loose all things in Heaven, with the keys of the King, extend even to purgatory? For example, can he canonise a person and thus bring him out of the realm of cleansing into Heaven, or does a canonisation recognise a saint already in Heaven?

I ask because I am very confused about the duration and suffering of purgatory, especially with regards to a modern pope. Innocent III famously appeared to a woman on the day of his death, saying he had committed three faults which merited centuries in Purgatory, unless someone prayed for him. These were minor faults which were not recorded, and yet this holy and great pope needed to be cleansed before entering Heaven.

John Paul II was Pope before I converted. I have never learned anything good about him, only ever having read of odd, or negative things he did. There was the conference in 1981 about the old covenant still standing, and the Assisi meetings, and ambiguous theology of salvation at times. Sometimes my scruples force me to ask: how could such a man teach such bizarre things, and not have purgatory time when he died?

Innocent III always defended the faith zealously and never personally taught anything that could be scandalous, but JP2 seems to have scandalised a lot of people I’ve met. How was it that he shot straight to Heaven as a “Blessed” within 5 years of having passed on? Was it all the prayers and penances for his soul, done over the years by the faithful? If that’s so, then every Pope could be declared blessed, because many millions of people pray for each Pope after death.

I guess this is an issue with how far the Pope’s power extends. Imagine JP2 had a stiff-ish Purgatory sentence for obscuring the faith to even one Catholic - could Benedict XVI simply waive the purgatory time, or is it a recognition of what God has already done?

Thank you very much …

 

[Allegra]

Frankly, I think this borderlines on none of our business. As far as purgatory goes, we’re all getting a better deal than we deserve, so why should we complain about the length of someone else’s stint? That’s like people standing in line for a free feast and complaining because the guy in front got an extra potato!

 

[Ambrosian]

This is a question of doctrine, not necessarily envy. Using the late Pope as an example was not necessary. He is a good illustration of the question at hand.

 

[mdkirkbride]

“Time”, as we perceive it, isn’t necessarily valid in purgatory.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Peter 3:8[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Ambrosian]

“Time”, as we perceive it, isn’t necessarily valid in purgatory.

…]

Then, was Church wrong about indulgences of X, Y, and Z number of days?

 

[JRKH]

Dearly beloved,

A blessed and holy Sunday…

Does the power of the Bishop of Rome to bind and loose all things in Heaven, with the keys of the King, extend even to purgatory? For example, can he canonise a person and thus bring him out of the realm of cleansing into Heaven, or does a canonisation recognise a saint already in Heaven?

I am not expert on these matters, but I don’t believe that any of us knows who is or is not in purgatory at a given point in our timeline…Such matters are beyond our comprehension.

As I understand things…

The process of formal canonization requires evidences of intercession, someone prays for the person to intercede on their behalf before the throne of God for some miracle. If the miracle occurs, and is approved (after extensive investigation) by the Church, the person can be put forward as a candidate in the canonization process.

I believe it takes 2 or three approved miracles before a person can be declared a saint.

Now - based on this understanding, it is obvious that the person who is canonized is already in heaven. One cannot intercede before the throne of God when one is in Purgatory…

So - again based on my understanding - a pope cannot simply free someone from purgatory by declaring them a saint.

That said, I would like to address something else you said in your post above.
In Catholic understanding, the Pope does not bind and loose things in heaven. What he does is bind and loose on earth, based on what is already bound or loosed in heaven…

Peace
James

 

[Nate13]

Then, was Church wrong about indulgences of X, Y, and Z number of days?

They were correct, but there is no standard relation of our time to time in purgatory. And yes, I believe if the Pope canonizes someone who has not done all of their time in Purgatory in what ever sense of time you want to look at it from, that person is allowed into Heaven even if they have not done their “time”.

As you said the Church teaches that certain indulgences can help reduce the “time” a person spends in Purgatory and I would think of canonization as the ultimate indulgence, although that is obviously not its main purpose. Saying someone sees a reduction of “time” in Purgatory is synonymous to me with saying that person sees an increase in the saving grace of God.

 

[Luvtosew]

I don’t think we can truely know who is in heaven or not, or if someone is still in purgatory or not. God is the judge and jury of us all. Maybe we all stay in purgatory for long enough to just get cleansed and maybe its the same time for everyone.

 

[Paul_Infirdigno]

I Think you should go to ‘Ask an Apologetic’ forum, because none of us are sure, tell them all your doubts, and i suggest you get a Spiritual Director, i have terrible scruples, and he has helped alot.

 

[Ambrosian]

Nate13, those are very interesting points…

Luvtosew, thank you for the reply. I think, however, that each soul is totally unique, especially in the severity of his sin. Compared to others, the most unique thing about ourselves is our individual record of sinning! Each soul needs what is right, and God must give him exactly what he needs, for God the Lord is just.

Paul Infirdigno, that is a great idea. I didn’t think about them. Hopefully, a spiritual director will be coming very soon!

I would like to address something else you said in your post above.
In Catholic understanding, the Pope does not bind and loose things in heaven. What he does is bind and loose on earth, based on what is already bound or loosed in heaven…

Peace
James

Yes, that is a slip-up I made… “whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven”, etc., but I split them up and doubled them.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

It would seem to me you maybe stacking a series of misunderstandings upon each other

Dearly beloved,

A blessed and holy Sunday…

Does the power of the Bishop of Rome to bind and loose all things in Heaven, with the keys of the King, extend even to purgatory?

Bind and loose is in regard to laity and does not extend past that, thus the living are affected but not the died

For example, can he canonize a person and thus bring him out of the realm of cleansing into Heaven, or does a canonization recognize a saint already in Heaven?

The latter, canonization is only formal recognition, it moves no one and does not change anything it simply recognizes what has already happened.

I ask because I am very confused about the duration and suffering of purgatory, especially with regards to a modern pope. Innocent III famously appeared to a woman on the day of his death, saying he had committed three faults which merited centuries in Purgatory, unless someone prayed for him. These were minor faults which were not recorded, and yet this holy and great pope needed to be cleansed before entering Heaven.

You imply to much knowledge of Innocents actions. We simply do not know what he spoke of

John Paul II was Pope before I converted. I have never learned anything good about him, only ever having read of odd, or negative things he did. There was the conference in 1981 about the old covenant still standing, and the Assisi meetings, and ambiguous theology of salvation at times. Sometimes my scruples force me to ask: how could such a man teach such bizarre things, and not have purgatory time when he died?

This paragraph makes no sense

Innocent III always defended the faith zealously and never personally taught anything that could be scandalous, but JP2 seems to have scandalised a lot of people I’ve met. How was it that he shot straight to Heaven as a “Blessed” within 5 years of having passed on?

I would suggest a little reading on "particular judgment "

Was it all the prayers and penances for his soul, done over the years by the faithful? If that’s so, then every Pope could be declared blessed, because many millions of people pray for each Pope after death.

prays help only those in purgatory.

I guess this is an issue with how far the Pope’s power extends. Imagine JP2 had a stiff-ish Purgatory sentence for obscuring the faith to even one Catholic - could Benedict XVI simply waive the purgatory time, or is it a recognition of what God has already done?

Thank you very much …

What “sins” do you know of committed by JPII and when did god contact you about his “temporal punishments”?

This is a question of doctrine, not necessarily envy. Using the late Pope as an example was not necessary. He is a good illustration of the question at hand.

Maybe you should read a little history about Popes

Then, was Church wrong about indulgences of X, Y, and Z number of days?

The Church teaching does not align with these comments. If we assume Innocent III spoke of centuries in purgatory it would have been casual language, he would not have meant it in literal terms

 

[Safia]

I believe there was a saint – St. Teresa of Avila, maybe (don’t quote me on that!) – who heard from Jesus Himself that she would owe at least an entire day in Purgatory (though, yes, it’s true that time doesn’t function in the same way there, if it functions at all) if she didn’t fight some recurring venial sin/temptation. The only thing that this means for me is that I better be concerned more with myself and my holiness, because if Teresa of Avila is spending a day in Purgatory, that means I’ve got epochs. :yup:

 

[mdkirkbride]

Then, was Church wrong about indulgences of X, Y, and Z number of days?

Misunderstood, not ‘wrong’. My understanding is the Church used the term ‘days’ to make it easier to understand. It was intended more to be relative. So something that was ‘2 days’ would be twice as efficacious as something that was ‘1 day’. Similarly, the ‘selling of indulgences’ was misunderstood and abused, where the intention was that giving of alms would have an affect on purgatory,became people trying to ‘buy their way to heaven’ through their misunderstanding.

 

[promethius]

Misunderstood, not ‘wrong’. My understanding is the Church used the term ‘days’ to make it easier to understand. It was intended more to be relative. So something that was ‘2 days’ would be twice as efficacious as something that was ‘1 day’. Similarly, the ‘selling of indulgences’ was misunderstood and abused, where the intention was that giving of alms would have an affect on purgatory,became people trying to ‘buy their way to heaven’ through their misunderstanding.

The church did not misunderstand anything, nor was it wrong. The church has always taught that purgation is a mysterious process which occurs outside of this physical universe (aka, is spiritual) and therefore outside of this construct of time.

The entire point of assigning days to releases from purgatory was, as you say, for relativistic measurement, and the relativistic measurement is equivalence to the old penance system… namely, if a certain sin in the middle ages would have earned a penance of 3 days fasting, then this was the required penance in purgatory should the penetant die before completion of penance (or if the penance was too light for the damage to be repaired, there might be additional “left over” to be purged out). So, when an indulgence is for X number of days, that means it is equivalent to spending X number of days on earth in penance here, while alive… not to anything in purgatory.

 

[mdkirkbride]

The church did not misunderstand anything

I was not trying to state that the Church misunderstood it. I was trying to say the Church WAS misunderstood. The laity, maybe some religious and clergy, was misunderstanding the teaching.

 

[TimothyH]

The church did not misunderstand anything, nor was it wrong. The church has always taught that purgation is a mysterious process which occurs outside of this physical universe (aka, is spiritual) and therefore outside of this construct of time.

The entire point of assigning days to releases from purgatory was, as you say, for relativistic measurement, and the relativistic measurement is equivalence to the old penance system… namely, if a certain sin in the middle ages would have earned a penance of 3 days fasting, then this was the required penance in purgatory should the penetant die before completion of penance (or if the penance was too light for the damage to be repaired, there might be additional “left over” to be purged out). So, when an indulgence is for X number of days, that means it is equivalent to spending X number of days on earth in penance here, while alive… not to anything in purgatory.

I’m not sure that just because something is not physical that it is not subject to time.

St. Augustine posited that since time is a measure of change, God himself is outside of time because God does not change.

It seems to me that those in Purgatory would be subject to time as they are changed - the spirits of the just made perfect etc. .

-Tim-

 

[onemangang]

Here is a good response that is under 5 minutes long by Jimmy Akin

youtu.be/MCKs6on7hxw

He covers Purgatory, time and Space!

 

[promethius]

I’m not sure that just because something is not physical that it is not subject to time.

St. Augustine posited that since time is a measure of change, God himself is outside of time because God does not change.

It seems to me that those in Purgatory would be subject to time as they are changed - the spirits of the just made perfect etc. .

-Tim-

First, you’ll kindly note that I did not state that purgatory was outside of ALL time, just that it was outside of THIS construct of time… namely, that those in purgatory experience time differently than we do.

Second, you will also kindly note that while God does not change, and while all of OUR time collapses for God, that a reactive God requires SOME sort of time construct… one which is necessarily mysterious to us, but which philosophers (and Thomas Aquinas) have termed the aeviternity… God’s time.

I happen to posit that purgatory occurs within a construct of aeviternity as well, but a temporary one which will become meaningless upon the final judgement.

 

[thistle]

Dearly beloved,

A blessed and holy Sunday…

Does the power of the Bishop of Rome to bind and loose all things in Heaven, with the keys of the King, extend even to purgatory? For example, can he canonise a person and thus bring him out of the realm of cleansing into Heaven, or does a canonisation recognise a saint already in Heaven?

I ask because I am very confused about the duration and suffering of purgatory, especially with regards to a modern pope. Innocent III famously appeared to a woman on the day of his death, saying he had committed three faults which merited centuries in Purgatory, unless someone prayed for him. These were minor faults which were not recorded, and yet this holy and great pope needed to be cleansed before entering Heaven.

John Paul II was Pope before I converted. I have never learned anything good about him, only ever having read of odd, or negative things he did. There was the conference in 1981 about the old covenant still standing, and the Assisi meetings, and ambiguous theology of salvation at times. Sometimes my scruples force me to ask: how could such a man teach such bizarre things, and not have purgatory time when he died?

Innocent III always defended the faith zealously and never personally taught anything that could be scandalous, but JP2 seems to have scandalised a lot of people I’ve met. How was it that he shot straight to Heaven as a “Blessed” within 5 years of having passed on? Was it all the prayers and penances for his soul, done over the years by the faithful? If that’s so, then every Pope could be declared blessed, because many millions of people pray for each Pope after death.

I guess this is an issue with how far the Pope’s power extends. Imagine JP2 had a stiff-ish Purgatory sentence for obscuring the faith to even one Catholic - could Benedict XVI simply waive the purgatory time, or is it a recognition of what God has already done?

Thank you very much …

Only God knows who is in Purgatory and only God determines when and who is released from Purgatory.
Canonization has nothing to do with Purgatory or getting people out of Purgatory.

 

[brb3]

could Benedict XVI simply waive the purgatory time,

He could hear one’s confession on earth, and loose / absolve them of all mortal and venial sins … and if that one died shortly after, they would possibly bypass purgatory altogether.