Purgatory: Does it really exist?

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Hello all,

I am a non-denominational, Protestant, evangelical Christian who is very eager to learn more about the doctrine of Catholicism. By no means am I trying to bash Catholics’ beliefs or anything like that; I am simply trying to better understand y’all’s point of view on certain subjects.

Specifically, my question is about the afterlife. From what I understand, Catholics basically believe that in order to gain admittance into heaven, one must be ‘cleansed’ by going to Purgatory first. I can see why someone would believe that, but where exactly does the Bible mention Purgatory explicitly? I mean I believe in the existence of heaven and hell, but I honestly think it is a stretch to over-interpret a few sayings from Jesus and come up with a whole different place to reside in after death.

Again, let me make myself clear that I mean no disrespect to Catholics whatsoever. My best friend is Catholic, and we discuss our religious inconsistencies quite often. But we never are mean or rude to each other, and we do not judge each other just because we don’t see things eye to eye. My sole intention for signing up for this forum is to get a better understanding of Catholic teachings

Thank you very much, and God bless you,
TS17
 
Hello all,

I am a non-denominational, Protestant, evangelical Christian who is very eager to learn more about the doctrine of Catholicism. By no means am I trying to bash Catholics’ beliefs or anything like that; I am simply trying to better understand y’all’s point of view on certain subjects.

Specifically, my question is about the afterlife. From what I understand, Catholics basically believe that in order to gain admittance into heaven, one must be ‘cleansed’ by going to Purgatory first. I can see why someone would believe that, but where exactly does the Bible mention Purgatory explicitly? I mean I believe in the existence of heaven and hell, but I honestly think it is a stretch to over-interpret a few sayings from Jesus and come up with a whole different place to reside in after death.

Again, let me make myself clear that I mean no disrespect to Catholics whatsoever. My best friend is Catholic, and we discuss our religious inconsistencies quite often. But we never are mean or rude to each other, and we do not judge each other just because we don’t see things eye to eye. My sole intention for signing up for this forum is to get a better understanding of Catholic teachings

Thank you very much, and God bless you,
TS17
Welcome to the forums Truth Seeker.

I don’t have time for an extensive response (with biblical references which you no doubt will need), but you will get a lot of action on this thread from others.

A key concept is that one must be perfect, as the Father is perfect, in order to be in Heaven. We cannot be less than perfect and be in Heaven. So when we die, regardless of whether our sins have been forgiven, we still will have disordered desires. For example, suppose we still have hate or lust or envy in our hearts. We can’t enter Heaven with those desires. So these disordered desires must be purged. The process of purgation is painful because it involves giving up many of the things that we spent our lives “acquiring.”
  1. Purgatory is more of a process than a place. Think of all the biblical references to being purged, refined with fire, etc. That’s the process of purgatory.
  2. It is not strictly necessary that one go to purgatory prior to Heaven. If we repent on earth, and offer up our suffering in union with Christ’s suffering, then it is possible (but perhaps unlikely) that we could go straight to heaven. Or if we are martyred for the faith, we can go straight to heaven.
There are many biblical references which describe this process of purification. I’ll try to look some up and get back to you (unless somebody beats me to it).

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A key concept is that one must be perfect, as the Father is perfect, in order to be in Heaven. We cannot be less than perfect and be in Heaven. So when we die, regardless of whether our sins have been forgiven, we still will have disordered desires. For example, suppose we still have hate or lust or envy in our hearts. We can’t enter Heaven with those desires. So these disordered desires must be purged. The process of purgation is painful because it involves giving up many of the things that we spent our lives “acquiring.”
  1. Purgatory is more of a process than a place. Think of all the biblical references to being purged, refined with fire, etc. That’s the process of purgatory.
  2. It is not strictly necessary that one go to purgatory prior to Heaven. If we repent on earth, and offer up our suffering in union with Christ’s suffering, then it is possible (but perhaps unlikely) that we could go straight to heaven. Or if we are martyred for the faith, we can go straight to heaven.
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Nothing to say but: Great response! Perfect.
 
Welcome to the forums Truth Seeker.

It is not strictly necessary that one go to purgatory prior to Heaven. If we repent on earth, and offer up our suffering in union with Christ’s suffering, then it is possible (but perhaps unlikely) that we could go straight to heaven. Or if we are martyred for the faith, we can go straight to heaven.

.
“Be careful how you hear” Truthseeker. Notice that this Catholic is encouraging you to “offer up your sufferings” so you may get to heaven on a direct line. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that would suggest our salvation is based on “offering up our sufferings” for a speedy entrance into glory. We must seek our salvation completely OUTSIDE of ourselves, as Moses lifted up the serpent on a rod in the wilderness. The people were told to simply LOOK upon it and live. How strange they must have thought. They had been bitten by snakes. How could something as completely outside of themselves as simply looking at a pole, possibly cure them?
But when they looked—they were healed.
In the O.T., God says in Isaiah, to LOOK unto me and live. And Jesus says the same in the N.T. . We must “not give heed to fables” per 1 Tim 1:4.
 
Nothing to say but: Great response! Perfect.
The man’s response was by no means perfect, when we dig into what is really being said.

Popular RC apologist Tim Staples has recently declared:

“The bottom line here is this: Jesus Christ did not suffer and die so that we don’t have to. Jesus Christ suffered and died so that our good works offered up in him can be truly pleasing and salvific before God. And indeed, Jesus didn’t suffer and die so that we don’t have to suffer and die, he suffered and died so that our suffering and death could be salvific.” (Tape set, “God’s Perfect Plan: Purgatory & Indulgences Explained”).

Here again is the totally unbiblical ideology that our suffering is SALVIFIC! True Christians will not allow this type of thinking to intrude upon the singularly sufficient cross-work of Christ, no matter what armchair theological gymnastics one can come up with. The instant you add anything to the work of Christ, you end up with another gospel. Why in the world do you think so many alleged Christians will be coming to Christ on Judgment Day and being thrown out per Matt 7??? The answer is right HERE. They said they were kind, loving and virtuous and did many good deeds in His name–“so let us in!”
But they were turned away because their hope in Him was SUPPLEMENTED with something else! It was the same thing in the parable of the 10 virgins—another warning! They too expected to be let in—but the door was shut. Jesus certainly couldn’t have been referring to Protestants here because by and large, P’s are utterly uninterested in basing our entrance into heaven contingent upon our works or “sufferings”.
Methinks He had in mind, Catholics in particular.
 
There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that would suggest our salvation is based on “offering up our sufferings” for a speedy entrance into glory. We must seek our salvation completely OUTSIDE of ourselves…
For the record, the “Catholic” didnt say anything about or “salvation” being “based” upon our sufferings - you simply interjected that thought. Perhaps you did so because you dont fully understand (or have any language to express) the difference between being “saved” and inheriting eternal life, the kingdom of God (ie, going to Heaven). Being saved happens here on earth but does not automatically mean that one is guaranteed to inherit eternal life/ the kingdom of God(ie go to Heaven) - please review Pauls admonitions to the “saved” members of the churches at Corinth(1Cor6:9) Ephesus(Eph5:5) and Galatia(Gal5:20).
It is a point of nuance for sure, but an important one, that when we, as Christians, offer up “our sufferings” , we are actually offering them up united to the Cross of Christ because as members of the body of Christ all of who we are - our joys, sorrows, hopes and failures - is united to Christ. If what we offer were not united to the one, holy, perfect offering acceptable to the Father, there is no way that Paul could say to the Roman Church:

“I urge you, brothers, by the mercy of God, to OFFER UP YOUR BODIES AS A LIVING SACRIFICE holy and pleasing to God - this is your spiritual act of worship.”

It is only because of our union with Christ that anything we offer is offered as part of His perfect offering and able to be “holy and pleasing to God”
Purgatory, which is better thought of as a process rather than a place, is simply the process of being completely cleansed of our sinful, selfish tendency to prefer self over God and neighbor. Virtually all of us will die in an imperfect state - we will still be struggling with sin, weak faith, selfishness, etc. We will not be in the appropriate condition to see God face to face. His infinite holiness would consume us! We need to undergo a final cleansing to be in and enjoy for all eternity God’s infinite holiness. Purgatory is the process whereby those who have died and been judged “good and faithful servants” are made, finally and completely ready to spend eternity with God. And it is not as if we** accomplish it - we dont, we merely experience it. It is still a grace of God, born of the merits of Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary that allows for this final, perfect, gracious cleansing.

Blessings!
 
Alright so I just read most of the stuff on those links y’all referred me to, and I must say that not only is the doctrine of purgatory biblical, but it is also a very convincing argument. I still have to respectfully disagree with most of the points they were making, but I can totally understand why Catholics (and even some Protestants) would believe in Purgatory. It’s just that I see things from a slightly different perspective.

Thanks very much for your help!

(Edited)
 
…In general, when the Bible talks about how we believers endure suffering, it’s not talking about what you have to go through after death in order to get into heaven. Rather, what all those verses are saying (for example, in Hebrews where it talks about how God disciplines us) is that you’re going to suffer on earth, not after you die. That’s how I see things, but it’s fine if you disagree.
Separation - true, voluntary separation - from our sins, and our sinfulness, is painful. It’s painful here on earth, why would it not be painful upon our death? The suffering is not some punishment inflicted upon us, it is the tearing apart of us and our sins, our desires to sin.
 
Here again is the totally unbiblical ideology that our suffering is SALVIFIC! True Christians will not allow this type of thinking to intrude upon the singularly sufficient cross-work of Christ, no matter what armchair theological gymnastics one can come up with. The instant you add anything to the work of Christ, you end up with another gospel. Why in the world do you think so many alleged Christians will be coming to Christ on Judgment Day and being thrown out per Matt 7??? The answer is right HERE. They said they were kind, loving and virtuous and did many good deeds in His name–“so let us in!”
But they were turned away because their hope in Him was SUPPLEMENTED with something else! It was the same thing in the parable of the 10 virgins—another warning! They too expected to be let in—but the door was shut. Jesus certainly couldn’t have been referring to Protestants here because by and large, P’s are utterly uninterested in basing our entrance into heaven contingent upon our works or “sufferings”.
Methinks He had in mind, Catholics in particular.
  • Did you read my post just prior to yours? What you keep describing as “our suffering” is, in actuality, united to the Cross of Christ through faith. Please read my previous post if you missed it, reread it if you missed its relationship to this discussion.
  • In addition, your contention that “nothing” must be added to the work of Christ is inaccurate as well. This can be demonstrated in several ways. The first way is to recognize that God so loved the WORLD - as in every sinful human being - that He sent his only Son to die for our salvation. His passion, death and resurrection accomplished perfectly and completely everything it was meant to accomplish for all mankind. And yet not everyone will go to Heaven…why is that? What is it that ultimately separates those who go to Heaven and those who do not? Is it because of something that Christ fails to do or is it because of something we fail to do??? I think we both agree: it is NOT a failure on Christ’s part; it is something that we fail to do. And so, in a sense, SOMETHING must be added to Christ’s redemptive work on our behalf. As a Protestant you would agree that, at the very least, faith must be added to what Christ did. Now faith is a gift, but that gift can be squandered - it requires a little bit of effort (sometimes a lot!) to maintain and strengthen our faith. God gives us the grace to withstand the trials we face so that we may endure them (1 Cor 10:13) but we must cooperate with that grace. Most of the NT letters deal with this very subject.
  • But there is certainly more than this discussed in the NT. As I pointed out earlier, Christ unequivocally conditions our forgiveness with forgiving others (Matt 6:15). Forgiving others is something* we *do - it is something that, in a sense, is “added” to what Christ has done; it is also something we do because of what Christ has done, and it is something that we do by grace through faith. That much being said, we are also capable of NOT forgiving others. We can prefer to think of others’ sins against us as worse than our sins before God; we can- through hardness of heart- resist the grace that God pours out to enable us forgive others, and we can ultimately fail to forgive.
  • Lastly, the notion of “adding” to Christ’s redemptive work is not foreign to Paul. He said directly in Collosians 1:24 "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,"Living a life of holiness and avoiding certain sins was something Paul repeatedly addressed to the “saved” members of the churches at Corinth(1Cor6:9) Ephesus(Eph5:5) and Galatia(Gal5:20). Here is a mere sample of what he said to those saved Christians who had been “washed and sanctified”: “For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ” and God.Notice how he doesnt exempt anyone from this? Kinda like “all have sinned” - it is a universal. Would you not consider this “adding” to Christ’s singularly sufficient Cross - the need to avoid unrepentant serious sin?
Blessings!
 
For the record, the “Catholic” didnt say anything about or “salvation” being “based” upon our sufferings - you simply interjected that thought. Perhaps you did so because you dont fully understand (or have any language to express) the difference between being “saved” and inheriting eternal life, the kingdom of God (ie, going to Heaven). Being saved happens here on earth but does not automatically mean that one is guaranteed to inherit eternal life/ the kingdom of God(ie go to Heaven) - please review Pauls admonitions to the “saved” members of the churches at Corinth(1Cor6:9) Ephesus(Eph5:5) and Galatia(Gal5:20)
“I urge you, brothers, by the mercy of God, to OFFER UP YOUR BODIES AS A LIVING SACRIFICE holy and pleasing to God - this is your spiritual act of worship.”

It is only because of our union with Christ that anything we offer is offered as part of His perfect offering and able to be “holy and pleasing to God”
Purgatory is simply the process of being completely cleansed of our sinful, selfish tendency to prefer self over God and neighbor. Virtually all of us will die in an imperfect state - we will still be struggling with sin, weak faith, selfishness, etc. We need to undergo a final cleansing to be in and enjoy for all eternity God’s infinite holiness. Purgatory is the process whereby those who have died and been judged “good and faithful servants” are made, finally and completely ready to spend eternity with God. And it is not as if we** accomplish it - we dont, we merely experience it. It is still a grace of God, born of the merits of Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary that allows for this final, perfect, gracious cleansing.

First of all, there is no such thing as someone who is saved here on earth and then gets sent to hell later, so NATURALLY I wouldn’t have any language to express that idea! I noticed you didn’t either, except to just make the claim. Anyway, this concept is totally alien to the word of God. You are either saved right now or you are not. Jesus is a SAVIOR, and when He has His mind set on saving someone, He will succeed in His intentions. He does not fail to bring about salvation to those for whom He died. He is “able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory” (Jude 1:24). The quote from 1 Cor 6:9 and the others does not in the least prove your point! So what? The blanket statement that the unrighteous and idolators will not inherit eternal life means just that. You have created some sort of artifical distinction between “saved people on earth who are ultimately hellbound” and I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Second, offering up our bodies as living sacrifies pertains to we offering the sacrifice of praise (Heb 13:15), the sacrifice of joy (Ps 27:6), the sacrifice of thanksgiving (Ps 116:17). We do NOT offer our sufferings to God in conjunction with the sufferings of Christ. That was His exclusive right alone and you do greatly err by co-mingling the two. You say,

"It is only because of our union with Christ that anything we offer is offered as part of His perfect offering and able to be “holy and pleasing to God”

NO. Nothing we could ever do must ever be made to interfere with the cross-work of Christ, or as you say, “offered AS PART OF” His perfect offering. If His sacrifice was perfect, nothing needs to be added “AS PART OF” it. You have ruined the gospel message I must forthrightly warn you.

Third, the fear Catholics have of dying “impure” is due to a false religious piety. Jesus said to “Come to me and I will give you rest”. When we REST our souls in His finished work on our behalf, “we which have believed, do enter into His rest”. What a joy.

Fourth, I feel you are unaware of what it means to be “IN CHRIST”.
This two word phrase is used over 20 times and they all refer to being in union with Him by faith—not by baptism, not by the Eucharist, not by bowing your knee to the Pope, but by FAITH {See 1 John 2:5; 3:24, Romans 3:24, 8:1, 8:39, Eph 1:3, 2:13, 3:11-12, Phil 3:9; 14, 4:19, 1 Tim 3:13, 2 Tim 1:1, 1:9, 1:13 , 2:1, 2:10, 3:15, 1 Cor 1:2, 1:30, Colosssians 1:28; 2:6, 1 Thess 1:1, 2:14, 1 Peter 5:14}. When we are in union with Him, we therefore are (watch it now!) “complete in Him” {Colossians 2:10}. Again, we are COMPLETE IN HIM. One need not ever fret over dying imperfect because we are trusting in the perfect work of the perfect Savior, and all our sins are cleansed away by His unspeakable and vicarious death (1 John 1:7). Yes, it is perrrrfectly alright to consider yourself imperfect as you near the grave. Paul himself knew he was dying imperfect and explicity said so! “Not that I had already attained, either were already perfect…” Phil 3:12BUT! Unlike you, Paul knew that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord, because his hope was to “be found NOT having a righteousness of my own”. Don’t you see? He was not looking inwardly to his own righteousness whatsoever. He did many wonderful works “with the grace of God working in me”, but He could also say that he was “NOT justified by the works of the law”. Likewise, we are NOT justified in anyway by offering our sufferings to God. At death, if we are “in Christ”, we have “put on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Rms 13:14) and will be wearing the “robe of righteousness” that the Host will provide us at the wedding feast. If we attempt to enter in wearing our own cloak of good deeds and the added stink of our own sufferings, imagining they are meritorious, we will be thrown out, as the parable teaches in Matt 22. He is our “hiding place” saith the Psalms, and we dwell “in the shadow of the Almighty”.

Finally, if anyone on earth had the need to go to a purgatory, it would have been the thief on the cross. But Jesus said, TODAY you will be with me in paradise.
 
Separation - true, voluntary separation - from our sins, and our sinfulness, is painful. It’s painful here on earth, why would it not be painful upon our death? The suffering is not some punishment inflicted upon us, it is the tearing apart of us and our sins, our desires to sin.
That is completely untrue! The RCC indeed teaches that punishment is inflicted upon you.

Chapter IX–On the Works of satisfaction. Session XIV. the Council of Trent. November 25, 1551.

It [the Council] teaches furthermore that the liberality of the divine munificence is so great that we are able through Jesus christ to make satisfaction to God the Father, not only by punishments voluntarily undertaken by ourselves to atone for sins, or by those imposed by the judgment of the priest accordinag to the measure of our offense, but also, and this is the greatest proof of love, by the temporal afflictions imposed by God and borne patiently by us.

And “Dr” of the church, Ludwig Ott says

“The temporal punishments for sins are atoned for in the purifying fire by the so-called “suffering of atonement” (satispassio), that is, by the willing bearing of the expiatory punishments imposed by God.” (“Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma”, p. 485)
 
Finally, if anyone on earth had the need to go to a purgatory, it would have been the thief on the cross. But Jesus said, TODAY you will be with me in paradise.
I just want to say this. The thief was being crucified, so that is a lot of suffering. That could certainly of been his “purgatory on earth.” So anyone who goes through a cruel suffering like that could likely go straight to Heaven.
 
That is completely untrue! The RCC indeed teaches that punishment is inflicted upon you.

Chapter IX–On the Works of satisfaction. Session XIV. the Council of Trent. November 25, 1551.

It [the Council] teaches furthermore that the liberality of the divine munificence is so great that we are able through Jesus christ to make satisfaction to God the Father, not only by punishments voluntarily undertaken by ourselves to atone for sins, or by those imposed by the judgment of the priest accordinag to the measure of our offense, but also, and this is the greatest proof of love, by the temporal afflictions imposed by God and borne patiently by us.

And “Dr” of the church, Ludwig Ott says

“The temporal punishments for sins are atoned for in the purifying fire by the so-called “suffering of atonement” (satispassio), that is, by the willing bearing of the expiatory punishments imposed by God.” (“Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma”, p. 485)
I have heard stories where evangelicals have a tent revival, and many youth “get saved”, the local music shop sees a large number of stolen CD’s returned to the store. They don’t call it “the works of satisfaction” but basically its the same thing. They use words like “conviction by the Holy Spirit” and such.

The “punishments inflicted” in the confessional are simply restitution for sins committed, (like returning stolen CD’s) and God accepts our prayers when actual restitution is not practical. Gatecrasher is distorting the mercy and justice of God and is taking a snippet from a council that was addressing doctrinal problems 400 years ago.
 
“Be careful how you hear” Truthseeker. Notice that this Catholic is encouraging you to “offer up your sufferings” so you may get to heaven on a direct line. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that would suggest our salvation is based on “offering up our sufferings” for a speedy entrance into glory.
Gatecrasher is twisting what Truthseeker means.

Matt. 10:38 - Jesus said, “he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.” Jesus defines discipleship as one’s willingness to suffer with Him. Being a disciple of Jesus not only means having faith in Him, but offering our sufferings to the Father as He did.

Matt. 16:24; Mark 8:34 - Jesus said, “if any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” Jesus wants us to empty ourselves so that God can fill us. When we suffer, we can choose to seek consolation in God and become closer to Jesus.

Luke 9:23 - Jesus says we must take up this cross daily. He requires us to join our daily temporal sacrifices (pain, inconvenience, worry) with His eternal sacrifice.

Luke 14:27 - Jesus said, “whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” If we reject God because we suffer, we fail to apply the graces that Jesus won for us by His suffering.
scripturecatholic.com/suffering.html

Gatecrasher is wrong.
We must seek our salvation completely OUTSIDE of ourselves, as Moses lifted up the serpent on a rod in the wilderness. The people were told to simply LOOK upon it and live. How strange they must have thought. They had been bitten by snakes. How could something as completely outside of themselves as simply looking at a pole, possibly cure them?
But when they looked—they were healed.
The “serpent on a rod” forshadows Christ on the cross.

1 Cor. 1:23- Paul preaches a Christ crucified, not just risen. Catholic spirituality focuses on the sacrifice of Christ which is the only means to the resurrection. This is why Catholic churches have crucifixes with the corpus of Jesus affixed to them. Many Protestant churches no longer display the corpus of Jesus (only an empty cross). Thus, they only preach a Christ risen, not crucified.

1 Cor. 2:2 - Paul preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified. While the cross was the scandal of scandals, and is viewed by the non-Christian eye as defeat, Catholic spirituality has always exalted the paradox of the cross as the true tree of life and our means to salvation.
 
Some sites I have bookmarked with resources on Purgatory.
friendsofthepoorsouls.blogspot.com/
purgatory.ca/purg.php
medjugorjeusa.org/purgatoryroom.htm
pwhs-mfi.org/
holysouls.info/
catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-90.html - article on the Purgatory Museum in Rome

It’s all really interesting. Whoever said it’s not a place, it is a place as much as Heaven and Hell are places. God also allows purgatorial souls to come to earth to visit either a place they know well or a person they know well so that they can find someone who will pray for them and help them get to Heaven. Hence one of the reasons why people and places are haunted. The holy souls just want someone to pray for them.
 
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