Purgatory, few questions

[agiosotheos]

Purgatory does exist. it has been proven to me … but i know i cannot convince anyone who doesn’t want to be convinced… and my personal experiences are not to be followed. … only the Church’s teachings. but then, i also have that…

What does “Purgatory” mean to you?

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t think you quite got the sense of what I was saying, perhaps understandably so because I may not have been that clear. I’ll break down what I’m trying to say into a few points:

1. All humans will be risen from the dead, regardless of whether they are saved or damned.
2. Whether there will be some damned is uncertain.
3. The group I was talking about as inheriting eternal bliss was solely the saved.
4. All of mankind will be assumed up into the presence of God.
5. If some of those are damned, they will experience the presence of God as torment.
6. As such, we do not make a distinction between between “heaven” and “hell” as more or less in the presence of God. Both are fully in the presence of God, but one is an experience of that presence with acceptance and joy, and the other with rejection and torment.
7. Certainly all of creation, except for these potential damned, will be restored; we do not believe in the slightest in the Evangelical notion of leaving behind the material world we live in in this life, but rather the restoration and assumption of it.

Ok, thanks. I did misunderstand you.

For the record, in 543, the Synod of Constantinople condemned Apocatastasis as being Anathema, and the Anathema was formally submitted to the Fifth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople (553). So far as I know, both the Catholic and EO Churches consider it wrong.

It is considered one reason Origen is not an Early Church Father.

 

[agiosotheos]

Ok, thanks. I did misunderstand you.

For the record, in 543, the Synod of Constantinople condemned Apocatastasis as being Anathema, and the Anathema was formally submitted to the Fifth Ecumenical Council of Constantinople (553). So far as I know, both the Catholic and EO Churches consider it wrong.

It is considered one reason Origen is not an Early Church Father.

The 553 Council did not condemn apocatastasis totally and outright, but rather only Origen’s form, type, and shade of apocatastasis. This is even evidenced by the fact that some Church Fathers even after this council believed in a different form of it from Origen.

 

[ralphinal]

The 553 Council did not condemn apocatastasis totally and outright, but rather only Origen’s form, type, and shade of apocatastasis. This is even evidenced by the fact that some Church Fathers even after this council believed in a different form of it from Origen.

Correct. What you are describing is neither one, though

 

[crazzeto]

Where humanity ends up is solely a PERSONAL choice. We decide our Eternity by our life choices, and how they are, or, are not in accord with God’s Will. God as Judge simply affirms our personal choices, and passes JUST Judgement!

So friend, it’s not too late to change your mind:thumbsup: On the other hand, should YOU CHOSE NOT TO, you need not lose any sleep about where you will end up. Don’t bother to pack any warm clothes, you woun’t need them

Love and prayers friend,

Pat

I’m curious what light you see this in though. There is an ignorance clause true, but we know for the fact that anyone who converts from Catholicism (for argument sake) to something non-christian is effectivly rejecting Trium God as reveled by Christ. From Matthew 12 in Douay Rheims we have

31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. 33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good: or make the tree evil, and its fruit evil. For by the fruit the tree is known.

So, could the act described be viewed in this light? It seems to me that if you know the truth of God, then reject it… This is something different than if you were never taught to begin with. This is a rejection of the Truth, would this not also be a rejection of God’s free gift of Grace?

 

[agiosotheos]

Correct. What you are describing is neither one, though

True. Most in the EOC are open to the possibility of universal salvation as found in Gregory of Nyssa, Maximus the Confessor, Isaac the Syrian, etc. but do not act as if it is determined or dogmatic.

 

[StormSurfer]

Thank you. I know about Kami ( not from wikipedia ). I’d rather you pray to my God, whom
you have rejected, since He is THE Creator. He’s a lot more powerful than the Kami.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Sure he is.

May you live long and be happy my friend.

 

[Justy90]

i ws just doing some research on this kind of thing.

the Catholic Church teaches that only Catholics can go to Heaven. But there are some people who are “Catholic” in the “inner forum” of their hearts, just not in the external forum of official mmembership in the Church… and those have a chance, although it is very difficult … to be totally Catholic and not a member of Christ’s Church… Even so i have seen Protestants who are more Catholic than mnay Catholics… Protestants do have more time in Purg according to some saint or another… because thye don’t have that connection with the True Church.

if i had heard this maybe 8 years ago or so i would have been astounded… and would have questioned it far more than i do now…

but I don’t question it at ALL now… i have studied things and been through things & seen things that make it impossible to doubt this. I would say i know it… but that sounds arrogant… even so, i know it

… and after all these years of studying (history/teachings of Church, Scripture) and experiencing this and that (frequent Mass, the rosary, etc) and observing other’s lives, etc… i am 200% convinced its true…

that’s because absolute truth abides in this one Church that God established on Earth… One God, one truth… one Church

This is mental gymnastics times a hundred. I have to be Catholic to get into Heaven and even though I am not Catholic, I still may be on the inside and not even know it? Sheesh! This is as screwy as the notion of Purgatory itself.

 

[Javl]

This is mental gymnastics times a hundred. I have to be Catholic to get into Heaven and even though I am not Catholic, I still may be on the inside and not even know it? Sheesh! This is as screwy as the notion of Purgatory itself.

It may be screwy to you only because you do not know the whole truth. If you read and studied more about it you would come to understand, as many others have done. It is
not that difficult, it is fairly simple. The trouble is that too many are mis-informed and in
a mindset to bother.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[distracted]

What does “Purgatory” mean to you?

Purg is working out your salvation w/ fear & trmebling (Phil 2:12)… whether in this life and/or the next… it is hard to get to Heaven (Mt 7:13, St Lk 13:24) …SO we need al the help we can get… so its usually BOTH here and later…

it is becoming pure enough for Heaven… where no impure thing will enter (rev 21:27)

the bvest way to do that is to spend time with Jesus & the souls in Purg… who are suppoed to be surrounding the tabernacle in the Church 24/7…according to some saint or holy person (cant recall) but i have been there so often and spent so much time there, i know this is true… though, again, can’t prove it… to anyone who doesn’t know that experience…

God thinks totally differently than we humans and when you are there you know more how he thinks… and are less concerned with how others (self too) think… well, that’s my experience… i jjust go there and sit in silence… listening to the HS… and sometimes it isn’t too pleasant but that’s becaue of sin… but the longer i sit there the better , and after awhile (hour or so) i usually feel… totally diff than when started…

are you Catholic?

 

[distracted]

This is mental gymnastics times a hundred. I have to be Catholic to get into Heaven and even though I am not Catholic, I still may be on the inside and not even know it? Sheesh! This is as screwy as the notion of Purgatory itself.

not if you understand it… the reason you don’t understand could bve because you are closed minded…

God knows… but in any case, no one fully understands (apprehends) Catholicism until he has lived it…

 

[distracted]

This is mental gymnastics times a hundred. I have to be Catholic to get into Heaven and even though I am not Catholic, I still may be on the inside and not even know it? Sheesh! This is as screwy as the notion of Purgatory itself.

not trying to be rude (for a change ) but this sounds very judgmental… You don’t know my life… you don’t know what i know… i could have had God Himself appear before me and tell me waht i know for all you know…

and you know… i rather feel that He did…

He does these kinds of things through his Church…

if you attack the Church you attack Jesus Christ… objectively speaking

 

[agiosotheos]

Purg is working out your salvation w/ fear & trmebling (Phil 2:12)… whether in this life and/or the next… it is hard to get to Heaven (Mt 7:13, St Lk 13:24) …SO we need al the help we can get… so its usually BOTH here and later…

it is becoming pure enough for Heaven… where no impure thing will enter (rev 21:27)

the bvest way to do that is to spend time with Jesus & the souls in Purg… who are suppoed to be surrounding the tabernacle in the Church 24/7…according to some saint or holy person (cant recall) but i have been there so often and spent so much time there, i know this is true… though, again, can’t prove it… to anyone who doesn’t know that experience…

God thinks totally differently than we humans and when you are there you know more how he thinks… and are less concerned with how others (self too) think… well, that’s my experience… i jjust go there and sit in silence… listening to the HS… and sometimes it isn’t too pleasant but that’s becaue of sin… but the longer i sit there the better , and after awhile (hour or so) i usually feel… totally diff than when started…

are you Catholic?

I’m Baptized and Chrismated Eastern Orthodox and am considering converting to Oriental Orthodoxy. So obviously I am not in communion with the church of Rome, no.

I don’t really buy the idea of this third place or state. It seems like a clear innovation. Purgation may happen, but if it does it happens either within the state of torment that is hell or within the state of bliss that is Paradise.

 

[Javl]

I’m Baptized and Chrismated Eastern Orthodox and am considering converting to Oriental Orthodoxy. So obviously I am not in communion with the church of Rome, no.

I don’t really buy the idea of this third place or state. It seems like a clear innovation. Purgation may happen, but if it does it happens either within the state of torment that is hell or within the state of bliss that is Paradise.

The Jews of Jesus day, as do many today, believed in a holding place in which the soul was cleansed of sin before it could enter Heaven. Purgatory is a carry over from Judaism,
and since it’s a place of purgation ( purification ) it follows naturally that the Church Fathers have tried to explain and define it. It is a tenet and doctrine of the CC, but I do not think it is dogma. For information, read the “Writings of Flavius Josephus”, Clio, and Pliny the Younger and Elder. They all make mention of this “Jewish holding place”. And, also,
if I am not mistaken, the Essenes also make mention of it in their writings ( the Qumran
scrolls ).

( If I am not too nosy, may I ask why you are converting to the Oriental Church. I see
nothing wrong in Eastern Orthodoxy. Thank you. )

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[agiosotheos]

The Jews of Jesus day, as do many today, believed in a holding place in which the soul was cleansed of sin before it could enter Heaven. Purgatory is a carry over from Judaism,
and since it’s a place of purgation ( purification ) it follows naturally that the Church Fathers have tried to explain and define it. It is a tenet and doctrine of the CC, but I do not think it is dogma. For information, read the “Writings of Flavius Josephus”, Clio, and Pliny the Younger and Elder. They all make mention of this “Jewish holding place”. And, also,
if I am not mistaken, the Essenes also make mention of it in their writings ( the Qumran
scrolls ).

I’m well aware of the Jewish conception of the holding place. And we in the East generally continue to believe in the concept of “Sheol” or “Hades”. But it would be highly erroneous to equate this with Purgatory. For one thing, in Judaism and Orthodoxy, the state of holding is understood to contain both the blissful and the tormented. It is not a third place or state, but rather one place where the two states are experienced. Secondly, the state of purification is identified with the state of torment. Finally, there actually is an identified equivalent to this place in RC eschatology, but it is not Purgatory, rather it is the Limbo of the Fathers. Read up on it.

As such, Purgatory is a whole 'nother concept from this, and I think it is clear that it is an innovation.

( If I am not too nosy, may I ask why you are converting to the Oriental Church. I see
nothing wrong in Eastern Orthodoxy. Thank you. )

Primarily, I believe that the Council of Chalcedon was not sufficiently orthodox, being in contradiction with the faith of the Council of Ephesus. Same reason anyone chooses to be dogmatically OO rather than EO.

 

[sholland98]

Thanks, but to whom will you pray?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[firstmode]

So, here is the question:

If you are a revert from Christianity (hope I said that right, I was once a Christian, but I am not now) do you go to purgatory, or straight to Hell? Or is this not really a question for Christians, but to God? Also, if I was to go to Purgatory, what happens to me?

Thanks for Answers, and I hope you guys/gals have a good day.

Your Friend,
StormSurfer

1 John 2

21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.

 

[Javl]

I’m well aware of the Jewish conception of the holding place. And we in the East generally continue to believe in the concept of “Sheol” or “Hades”. But it would be highly erroneous to equate this with Purgatory. For one thing, in Judaism and Orthodoxy, the state of holding is understood to contain both the blissful and the tormented. It is not a third place or state, but rather one place where the two states are experienced. Secondly, the state of purification is identified with the state of torment. Finally, there actually is an identified equivalent to this place in RC eschatology, but it is not Purgatory, rather it is the Limbo of the Fathers. Read up on it.

As such, Purgatory is a whole 'nother concept from this, and I think it is clear that it is an innovation.

Yes, I do know of the “Limbo of the Fathers”. As for Catholic Purgatory, I believe it is a refined and defined version of the Limbo. Anyway, I also believe that nothing impure or stained can enter heaven. Since God’s Justice demands payment for the consequences
of commited, but forgiven, sins, Purgatory is the place for the cleansing and purification
of this staining and impurity.

Primarily, I believe that the Council of Chalcedon was not sufficiently orthodox, being in contradiction with the faith of the Council of Ephesus. Same reason anyone chooses to be dogmatically OO rather than EO.

Thank you for your answer. I thought that Chalcedon was just as Orthodox, I guess I was
wrong. I will have to look it up and read more carefully.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[agiosotheos]

As for Catholic Purgatory, I believe it is a refined and defined version of the Limbo.

That is a rather odd opinion to be holding. The purposes of Limbo and and Purgatory are very different. Limbo is a holding place for the dead who cannot enter heaven (those in the Limbo of Infants never can; those in the Limbo of the Fathers only could after Christ entered it in the “Harrowing of Hell”). Purgatory is the place of purification and suffering of punishment for the purpose of preparation for entering heaven.

Anyway, I also believe that nothing impure or stained can enter heaven.

So do EO & OO. And as I explained, we likewise believe in a purification after death. But as I said, we believe this happens in conjunction with, and in the midst of torment or bliss, not as a third place or state.

Since God’s Justice demands payment for the consequences of commited, but forgiven, sins,

We do not agree. We only believe in repentance.

 

[Javl]

That is a rather odd opinion to be holding. The purposes of Limbo and and Purgatory are very different. Limbo is a holding place for the dead who cannot enter heaven (those in the Limbo of Infants never can; those in the Limbo of the Fathers only could after Christ entered it in the “Harrowing of Hell”). Purgatory is the place of purification and suffering of punishment for the purpose of preparation for entering heaven.

So do EO & OO. And as I explained, we likewise believe in a purification after death. But as I said, we believe this happens in conjunction with, and in the midst of torment or bliss, not as a third place or state.

We do not agree. We only believe in repentance.

I think we differ basically in our understanding. The Magisterium ( all bishops and the Pope ) define our doctrines for the laity. I am faithful to the Magisterium, not because
they are smarter and know more than I do, but that their teachings are in line with
scripture, the teachings of Jesus, and the Holy Traditions that have been handed down
these past 2000 years. Many have tried to prove otherwise and have failed miserably.
I recognize all Orthodox Churches as legitimate, with valid Liturgy and Sacraments, but
ilicit and in schism. I pray to the Holy Spirit that all differences, wounds, etc. be healed
and that Jesus’ prayer to His Father be answered and fulfilled “…that ALL may be one”.

If we are all true followers of Christ we should all work hard to settle our differences in
love, and charity, and not argue as to who, or which, is right and strive for unity.
God Bless

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem