Purgatory, few questions

  • Thread starter Thread starter StormSurfer
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
If we are all true followers of Christ we should all work hard to settle our differences in
love, and charity, and not argue as to who, or which, is right and strive for unity.
If oneness of dogmatic tradition is a requisite for real unity (which it should be recognized as such), then arguing about who is right in dogmatic disagreements is fundamental to potentially coming to an agreement in one dogmatic tradition or another. Argument for the purpose of convincing others to become one in dogmatic tradition is thus the only way that unity will be accomplished.
 
If oneness of dogmatic tradition is a requisite for real unity (which it should be recognized as such), then arguing about who is right in dogmatic disagreements is fundamental to potentially coming to an agreement in one dogmatic tradition or another. Argument for the purpose of convincing others to become one in dogmatic tradition is thus the only way that unity will be accomplished.
Truthfully, I don’t think that it’s so much dogmatic and/or tradition, we are so close to each other, as it it a matter of culture and ritual. The Orthodox ( Greek, Ukranian, Roumanian ) that I have spoken to all seem to insinuate that this is the major problem.
After Vatican II the Church’s view on both culture and ritual has been relaxed and modified.
With ecumenism, talks between the various Churches have provided satisfactory results
with many Eastern Churches joining with Rome. Also many “high church” Anglicans
have come en masse to join with Rome. There is also the Hebrew Catholics, who keep
their culture and identity who have joined with Rome. ( It should be noted that the biggest block for Jews following Christ is that they lose their identity as Jews, that is: God’s
Chosen People. ) All these churches have kept their identity and did not have to become Latinized, or Romanized.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Truthfully, I don’t think that it’s so much dogmatic and/or tradition, we are so close to each other,
Well, I don’t at all agree. I think the EO and RC are separated in dogmatic tradition quite a bit.
The Orthodox ( Greek, Ukranian, Roumanian ) that I have spoken to all seem to insinuate that this is the major problem.
Many EO don’t really know about their Tradition or yours. The most evident differences that do not require much study are cultural, so if study of the dogmatic differences is not done, it may appear that the substantial differences are merely cultural.
With ecumenism, talks between the various Churches have provided satisfactory results
with many Eastern Churches joining with Rome.
Most of the Eastern churches which have joined Rome in the past millenium have done so as a result of older forms of aggressive Uniatism rather than the recent trends of Ecumenism
 
Well, I don’t at all agree. I think the EO and RC are separated in dogmatic tradition quite a bit.

Many EO don’t really know about their Tradition or yours. The most evident differences that do not require much study are cultural, so if study of the dogmatic differences is not done, it may appear that the substantial differences are merely cultural.

Most of the Eastern churches which have joined Rome in the past millenium have done so as a result of older forms of aggressive Uniatism rather than the recent trends of Ecumenism
OK, I understand your position, but I do not agree with you completely. One of us is
is correct and only time will tell. Meanwhile, let us both pray for the elimination of any
animosity between “us” and for total unity so that “all may be one”. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
as in the human realm ignorance is no excuse… its like that analogy of the boys getting muddy when their father told them to stay clean because they were going somewhere later… One boy didnt’ see the muddy ditch, accidentally fell itno it… one was shoved in… one deliberately threw himself in. Which one needs a bath?
Your analogy is a little off, I think. A better analogy is of one who is muddy and knows it, and one who is muddy and doesn’t know it.
 
I’m Baptized and Chrismated Eastern Orthodox and am considering converting to Oriental Orthodoxy. So obviously I am not in communion with the church of Rome, no.

I don’t really buy the idea of this third place or state. It seems like a clear innovation. Purgation may happen, but if it does it happens either within the state of torment that is hell or within the state of bliss that is Paradise.
Purgation in a state of bliss??
 
So, here is the question:

If you are a revert from Christianity (hope I said that right, I was once a Christian, but I am not now) do you go to purgatory, or straight to Hell? Or is this not really a question for Christians, but to God? Also, if I was to go to Purgatory, what happens to me?

Thanks for Answers, and I hope you guys/gals have a good day.

Your Friend,
StormSurfer
PURGATORY

Purgatory is much talked about between Catholics and Protestants. Some Protestants consider purgatory to be anti-Scriptural and outright blasphemous. To most Protestants, purgatory is a second chance at salvation, and clearly un-Biblical.

On the other hand, not all Catholics are in agreement of purgatory because they have been taught that (a) it could last a long, long time; (b)) it is very unpleasant; and © they will more than likely have to spend time there when they die instead of going directly to Heaven. Purgatory has been described by some as “Hell that you get out of”. If that were true, it would be no surprise that many Catholics end up leaving for seemingly “greener pastures”! Both of these reactions are unfortunate and misplaced, because purgatory is actually very good news and very Biblical; and even if they don’t want to admit it, any Protestant who takes Scripture seriously will believe this to be true.

If salvation were only about getting to Heaven, then purgatory would make no sense. But salvation is all about Jesus, being united to Him, and being conformed to His image. When we get to Heaven, we will need to be perfectly united to Him in order to stand in the Lord’s presence. Scripture is clear: “Without holiness, no one will see God” (Hebrews 12:14). To me this means that those of us, and there are many, who die without asking forgiveness of current or past venial sins, will not be in a position to see God’s face until we cleanse our souls of these sins. Now we may think we’re doing pretty good in our lives; but if we are honest, we’ll admit that we all have things that need work, and sins to be forgiven. And if we die before we are perfectly conformed to Christ, there is still some spiritual “dirt” that needs to be purged. The final cleansing that makes up what we lack, the last phase of our sanctification, is what Catholics refer to as purgatory. Far from being a terror, in many ways, purgatory is a guarantee of our destiny. Everyone who undergoes purgatory WILL be guaranteed a place in Heaven.

Interestingly, the Church has never made a formal declaration of the exact nature or duration of purgatory; it may in fact be instantaneous. But nevertheless, our souls must be cleansed of all sins before we can look upon God’s face.

Purgatory is our cleansing agent, like confessing our sins to God before taking Communion“. Purgatory is actually more of a process than a place; but IF it needs to be described as a place, perhaps it would best be considered the “purification room” of God’s Heavenly Kingdom. The cleansing of our souls prior to seeing God’s face is very factual. Put another way, if Hell is a place of “outer darkness” and Heaven is a place of light, then purgatory is the time it takes one’s eyes to adjust to the light.

Bible passages which appear to support Purgatory:

There is no direct, unambiguous reference in the Bible to either the existence or the nature of Purgatory. Its existence has been inferred from a number of passages in the Bible:

2 Maccabees 12:39-45: This passage is taken from the Apocrypha which is recognized by the Roman Catholic Church and a few Protestant denominations as an integral part of the official canon of scripture. It talks about living persons praying for the dead. One could reason that there is no need to pray for the deceased if they are in Heaven; they have already received their reward. If the deceased is in Hell, then prayer would again be meaningless because they would be beyond help. One might surmise that there must be an intermediate state or location where a person’s soul could be helped by the prayer of others.

1 Corinthians 3:15 discusses how each individual’s good and bad works will be judged after death. This is probably the main text used by Catholics to support their belief in Purgatory. The passage refers to fire which will test the quality of each man’s work. If it is burned up…he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. This passage could be interpreted as a reference to the purifying fires of Purgatory, which would eventually allow a person to escape. This reference cannot refer to Hell, because one cannot leave that place; it cannot refer to Heaven because there is no pain there; it must refer to some intermediate location. The key word in the original Greek is “zemiothesetai” which is translated as “suffer loss” in many versions of the Bible. But the original word also can refer to punishment; this alternative meaning is suppressed in most translations.

(Continued on the next Posting)
 
(Continued from previous posting)
Code:
Revelation 21:27 states that no impure person will enter heaven. "But nothing unclean shall enter it..." Some reason that if a person dies with some minor sins still on their record, then they are obviously not pure; they must go to some place to be refined until they can attain heaven.
Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or “purged” of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2
Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us “to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit.” Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive “for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

Graffiti can be seen on the walls of the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it.

Why no protests?

Whenever a date is set for the “invention” of purgatory, we can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that “true believers” in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.

Disbelievers prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.

The word Purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

(Continued on next posting)
.
 
(Continued from previous posting)

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: “In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid
reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

In this same vein, some ask why Catholics pray for the dead? Actually, this is a very ancient custom practiced by all of God’s people from the Old Testament. The book of 1 Maccabees tells us that it is a good thing to pray for the dead; and even today, there are a lot of prayers for the dead in Jewish funerals. This is as proper as praying for the person while alive; since, in the eternal sense, the person isn’t really dead as his or her soul may be in purgatory. And as we all know, or should know, Jesus wants us to pray and ALL prayers are heard by Him. We believe our prayers can help those in purgatory and that Jesus, through our prayers, will consider our pleas for their early acceptance into His Heavenly Kingdom.
 
As a point of interest, there is a thread at present concerning Pugatory in which all sides
have given their opinions, evidence etc. vis:

** How is Machabees 12:43-46 evidence for Purgatory?**

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
As a point of interest, there is a thread at present concerning Pugatory in which all sides
have given their opinions, evidence etc. vis:

** How is Machabees 12:43-46 evidence for Purgatory?**

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
It isn’t evidence for Purgatory. Purgatory does not exist.
 
As a point of interest, there is a thread at present concerning Pugatory in which all sides
have given their opinions, evidence etc. vis:

** How is Machabees 12:43-46 evidence for Purgatory?**

PAX DOMINI :signofcrosac

Shalom Aleichem
“…for if he were not expecting the falllen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.” (2 Mac 12:44)

“Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.” (2 Mac:12:46)

The word “Purgatory” is not in Scripture, but it is obvious, at least to me, that there is someplace where the dead go waiting on the final judgment, unless they are taken directly into Heaven. Only the sinless will see God’s face.
 
It isn’t evidence for Purgatory. Purgatory does not exist.
2 Mac 12:44:; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death".

2 Mac 12:436: "Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

The above tells me that there is a place where the dead will be after death, to work off their sins, and waiting final judgment. No one will see God’s face with sin on their souls.

The word Purgatory is not in Scripture, nor are the words Holy Trinity. But it is not the name “Purgatory” that is important, but the place where the dead will be held until the final judgment, unless taken into Heaven earlier.
 
2 Mac 12:44:; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death".

2 Mac 12:436: "Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

The above tells me that there is a place where the dead will be after death, to work off their sins, and waiting final judgment. No one will see God’s face with sin on their souls.

The word Purgatory is not in Scripture, nor are the words Holy Trinity. But it is not the name “Purgatory” that is important, but the place where the dead will be held until the final judgment, unless taken into Heaven earlier.
Let’s factor in some other verses.

43
He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;
44
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
45
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
46
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

By this all we can get is that Judas Maccabees believed in the reserection of the dead. At the reserection of the dead Christ will judge and Judus Maccabees was praying for God to have mercy at that time. There is no way you can claim that the passage is refering to purgatory because it clearly is not.
 
It isn’t evidence for Purgatory. Purgatory does not exist.
OK, but that is your opinion. The Jews of old and many of the Jews today believed in a
“Holding Place” ( our Purgatory ) where the consequences of sin are paid for. Could they
be wrong? Check out the thread first, and then make your statement.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
OK, but that is your opinion. The Jews of old and many of the Jews today believed in a
“Holding Place” ( our Purgatory ) where the consequences of sin are paid for. Could they
be wrong? Check out the thread first, and then make your statement.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
The Jews of old and many of the Jews today believe Jesus is not the Messiah.
 
East Anglican,

We’ll just have to wait until the day we will find out for ourselves whether or not there is a “holding place”. I still believe in my original posting. If a man dies with sin on his soul, and if no one can see the face of God unless he or she is sinless, then what is in between?

The existence of purgatory is universally taught by all the Fathers of the Church. The words of Our Lord, “Thou shalt not come out from it until thou hast paid the last penny” are very clear (Matt. 5:25-26). Later, when speaking of the sins against the Holy Ghost, Jesus says that such a sin “will not be forgiven either in this world or in the next” thus implying that there are some sins that can be atoned for in the next world (Matt. 12:32), keeping in mind that no one will see the face of God unless they are sinless.

Saint Paul also shows his belief in purgatory when, in his second letter to Timothy, he prays for the deceased Onesiphorus. “May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day” (2 Tim 1:18). Also, “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins” (2 Mach. 12:45-46).

Hmmm, how would you define the above without denying the Word.
 
The Jews of old and many of the Jews today believe Jesus is not the Messiah.
That bit has nothing to do with the existence of Purgatory. Or have you just thrown it in
for just a bit of discussion? There were many Jews of old and many Jews today who do
believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Also, many of today’s Jews are Catholic and remain
Jewish in their culture and traditions ( with Church appproval ).

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Purgatory is a make believe place created my the roman church to sell indulgences.

Hebrews 9:27
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment

Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Matthew 25:46
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Revelation 20:15
If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top