Purgatory: fire&pain or not?

[fabio_rocha]

The Church doesn’t pronounce about what happens in purgatory. All we know is a state of cleansing of the soul to heaven. But how about so many visions that saints had about the purgatory? Most of them involving fire…

 

[GEddie]

The Church doesn’t pronounce about what happens in purgatory. All we know is a state of cleansing of the soul to heaven. But how about so many visions that saints had about the purgatory? Most of them involving fire…

Statements by saints, if they are not part of the NT, remain private revelation. You can believe them or not, it’s not a matter of requirement.

I myself do not know what to believe about Purgatory. Part of me hopes it really is in Colorado

ICXC NIKA

 

[porthos11]

The Church doesn’t pronounce about what happens in purgatory. All we know is a state of cleansing of the soul to heaven. But how about so many visions that saints had about the purgatory? Most of them involving fire…

I simply think of it this way:

1. We are deprived of the vision of God while still shedding any imperfections that remain in us. How could that not be painful? It’s painful enough here. Call it fire or what not, but this must surely involve suffering.
2. However, we know we are saved, we will see God, we are there because we ourselves willingly stay there until we know we are ready; there is charity and the sharing of spiritual joy. We have no more need for faith or hope because we are assured as ever of our salvation; there is no more fear of losing the state of grace. How can that not be joyful?

 

[hazcompat]

Saint Catherine of Sienna

Treatise on Purgatory

CHAPTER II

 What is the joy of the souls in Purgatory. A comparison to shew
 how they see God ever more and more. The difficulty of speaking
 of this state.

I believe no happiness can be found worthy to be compared with that of a
soul in Purgatory except that of the saints in Paradise; and day by day
this happiness grows as God flows into these souls, more and more as the
hindrance to His entrance is consumed. Sin’s rust is the hindrance, and the
fire burns the rust away so that more and more the soul opens itself up to
the divine inflowing. A thing which is covered cannot respond to the sun’s
rays, not because of any defect in the sun, which is shining all the time,
but because the cover is an obstacle; if the cover be burnt away, this
thing is open to the sun; more and more as the cover is consumed does it
respond to the rays of the sun

It is in this way that rust, which is sin, covers souls, and in Purgatory
is burnt away by fire; the more it is consumed, the more do the souls
respond to God, the true sun. As the rust lessens and the soul is opened up
to the divine ray, happiness grows; until the time be accomplished the one
wanes and the other waxes. Pain however does not lessen but only the time
for which pain is endured. As for will: never can the souls say these pains
are pains, so contented are they with God’s ordaining with which, in pure
charity, their will is united.

But, on the other hand, they endure a pain so extreme that no tongue can be
found to tell it, nor could the mind understand its least pang if God by
special grace did not shew so much. Which least pang God of His grace
shewed to this Soul, but with her tongue she cannot say what it is. This
sight which the Lord revealed to me has never since left my mind and I will
tell what I can of it. They will understand whose mind God deigns to open.

ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/CATPUR.TXT

Peace

 

[vames]

“Fire” is a metaphor, as it was from the very beginning (St. Paul’s letter) and those private revelations borrowed it simply because people who tried to imagine Purgatory were culturally conditioned to do so. But the concept of Purgatory has evolved. See the encyclical “Spe Salvi”, chapters 45-48:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

 

[thistle]

The Church doesn’t pronounce about what happens in purgatory. All we know is a state of cleansing of the soul to heaven. But how about so many visions that saints had about the purgatory? Most of them involving fire…

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final** purification** of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a **cleansing fire: **

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

 

[Bookcat]

Pope Benedict Spe Salvi

What else might occur? Saint Paul, in his First Letter to the Corinthians, gives us an idea of the differing impact of God’s judgement according to each person’s particular circumstances. He does this using images which in some way try to express the invisible, without it being possible for us to conceptualize these images—simply because we can neither see into the world beyond death nor do we have any experience of it. Paul begins by saying that Christian life is built upon a common foundation: Jesus Christ. This foundation endures. If we have stood firm on this foundation and built our life upon it, we know that it cannot be taken away from us even in death. Then Paul continues: “Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:12-15). In this text, it is in any case evident that our salvation can take different forms, that some of what is built may be burned down, that in order to be saved we personally have to pass through “fire” so as to become fully open to receiving God and able to take our place at the table of the eternal marriage-feast.

Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart’s time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39].

(www.vatican.va)

 

[JonNC]

Pope Benedict Spe Salvi

What else might occur? Saint Paul, in his First Letter to the Corinthians, gives us an idea of the differing impact of God’s judgement according to each person’s particular circumstances. He does this using images which in some way try to express the invisible, without it being possible for us to conceptualize these images—simply because we can neither see into the world beyond death nor do we have any experience of it. Paul begins by saying that Christian life is built upon a common foundation: Jesus Christ. This foundation endures. If we have stood firm on this foundation and built our life upon it, we know that it cannot be taken away from us even in death. Then Paul continues: “Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:12-15). In this text, it is in any case evident that our salvation can take different forms, that some of what is built may be burned down, that in order to be saved we personally have to pass through “fire” so as to become fully open to receiving God and able to take our place at the table of the eternal marriage-feast.

**Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. **This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. **The transforming “moment” **of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart’s time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39].

(www.vatican.va)

One has to wonder if, had these words regarding Purgatory been uttered at the time of the Reformation, whether it would have even been an issue.

Jon

 

[Genesis315]

Pain seems to be the more consistently spoken of aspect in authoritative Magisterial decisions, rather than fire, although the CCC does the opposite. Here is an important text from the Council of Florence:

“Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church’s ordinances.”

 

[GEddie]

One has to wonder if, had these words regarding Purgatory been uttered at the time of the Reformation, whether it would have even been an issue.

Jon

Well we would still have had the English Reformation, and all of its sequelae.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Vouthon]

It should be noted that “pain” in the lexicon of the church’s mystical tradition, does not equate at alll with our earthly concept of physical “pain” that is, of course, unpleasant and undesirable. It can actually be an intemsely joyful yet humbling experience spiritually for our soul to undergo cleansing “pain” that is not of the senses (because we have none).

Take Saint Teresa’s famous description of her ecstatic experience of an angel piercing her:

“…Beside me on the left appeared an angel in bodily form . . . He was not tall but short, and very beautiful; and his face was so aflame that he appeared to be one of the highest ranks of angels, who seem to be all on fire . . . In his hands I saw a great golden spear, and at the iron tip there appeared to be a point of fire. This he plunged into my heart several times so that it penetrated my entrails. When he pulled it out I felt that he took them with it, and left me utterly consumed by the great love of God. The pain was so severe that it made me utter several moans. The sweetness caused by this intense pain is so extreme that one can not possibly wish it to cease, nor is one’s soul content with anything but God. This is not a physical but a spiritual pain…”

***- Saint Teresa of Avila (1515 – 1582), catholic mystic & Doctor of the Church ***

We really have to be careful that we do not bring the heavenly or spiritual down to earth. These are not sense experiences but spiritual ones of a kind we cannot comprehend.

 

[JonNC]

Well we would still have had the English Reformation, and all of its sequelae.

ICXC NIKA

And we would have had the anabaptists, and Zwingli, and Calvin. I was (not very clearly) referring to the Lutheran Reformation.

Jon

 

[GEddie]

And we would have had the anabaptists, and Zwingli, and Calvin. I was (not very clearly) referring to the Lutheran Reformation.

Jon

Weren’t Calvinism et al reactions to Lutheranism? Without a divided faith on the European mainland, would they even have got started?

(Alternate history rocks!!!)

ICXC NIKA

 

[JonNC]

Weren’t Calvinism et al reactions to Lutheranism?
(Alternate history rocks!!!)

ICXC NIKA

I don’t think the Calvinists would describe themselves that way, that they were simply a reaction to Lutheranism. But even if they were, how does that explain their break with the Catholic Church? ISTM they were a reaction to Rome, not Lutheranism. They were a different reaction to Rome, unless of course you have a source that Calvin was once a Lutheran. Since Calvin was 25 years younger than Luther, that would be easy to confirm were it true.

Without a divided faith on the European mainland, would they even have got started?

How did Luther get started without a divided faith on the European mainland?

Jon

 

[gkoomen]

I don’t think the Calvinists would describe themselves that way, that they were simply a reaction to Lutheranism. But even if they were, how does that explain their break with the Catholic Church? ISTM they were a reaction to Rome, not Lutheranism. They were a different reaction to Rome, unless of course you have a source that Calvin was once a Lutheran. Since Calvin was 25 years younger than Luther, that would be easy to confirm were it true.

How did Luther get started without a divided faith on the European mainland?

Jon

Hey! How about starting another thread? Way off topic but growing. Can we get back to Purgatory?

 

[hiredhelpwanted]

I can’t tell you if Purgatory is fire or not, but I can tell you there is a Purgatory. My 21 year old son Jeffrey was killed in an accident in Nov, 2011. He came to me in a dream less than two months later and said “Please keep praying for me so I will receive all the graces God has for me.” I know Jeffrey is in Purgatory. I believe he and all the other holy souls are going through purging, purification and healing before they are ready to enter Heaven and be in Our Lords presence. I believe the graces from our prayers comforts and helps the souls in Purgatory. We should continually be praying for these souls, I’m sure they will remember us if we do. Please join me in making it a point to daily remember the souls in Purgatory, and if you would remember my Jeffrey too, he and I would appreciate it. God Bless!

 

[DeaconPaulY]

you might want to read, “Mist of Mercy” by Anne, A Lay Apostle of Jesus Christ the Returning King. You can find it at www.directionforourtimes.com. while all of her writing is based on private Revelation, that doesn’t make it necessarily untrue. In this book she relates her experiences of purgatory when Jesus took her there and showed it to her.

My suggestion however is that we always look for the opportunities to gain indulgences, especially plenary indulgences because I’m sure that purgatory, in whatever form we experience it, will be anything but a picnic.

Peace and Blessings, Deacon Paul

 

[Pitcharan]

Purgatory is not an invention of the CC. It was always there and even defined in Judaism. It is called Sheol in Hebrew while Hell is called Gehenna. All the confusion and doubt exist because we treat sin and vice as the same. Sin may be forgiven; but a vice can only be PURGED. We can either pardon or punish theft; how sure can we be that it would fully cure the vice of stealing and there will be no more theft committed. Sin is only the effect, caused by the vice. It is much better to let vices be purged through suffering during our earthly sojourn and avoid the terrible purgatory.

Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from Sheol. (Pro 23:13-14)

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ‘For everyone will be salted with fire’.” (Mk 9:43, 49)

*It is better to atone for sin now and to cut away vices than to keep them for purgation in the hereafter. In truth, we deceive ourselves by our ill-advised love of the flesh. What will that fire feed upon but our sins? The more we spare ourselves now and the more we satisfy the flesh, the harder will the reckoning be and the more we keep for the burning. *(Imitation of Christ, Book- I, Chapter 24)

“In the fire of Purgatory, the pain is greater than any suffering known on earth. Never did the martyrs in their most terrible torments, never did malefactors, though subjected to all the cruelties which human malice could invent, endure sufferings equal to those of Purgatory. Let him, then, if he would avoid these dreadful punishments after death, begin from this time to amend his life.” (from Chapter 24, THE SINNER’S GUIDE by the venerable Louis of Granada)

 

[terrig]

I can’t tell you if Purgatory is fire or not, but I can tell you there is a Purgatory. My 21 year old son Jeffrey was killed in an accident in Nov, 2011. He came to me in a dream less than two months later and said “Please keep praying for me so I will receive all the graces God has for me.” I know Jeffrey is in Purgatory. I believe he and all the other holy souls are going through purging, purification and healing before they are ready to enter Heaven and be in Our Lords presence. I believe the graces from our prayers comforts and helps the souls in Purgatory. We should continually be praying for these souls, I’m sure they will remember us if we do. Please join me in making it a point to daily remember the souls in Purgatory, and if you would remember my Jeffrey too, he and I would appreciate it. God Bless!

Thank you for sharing. I pray for the poor souls every day and will remember to pray for the repose of your son’s soul. I read the book Purgatory Explained and it led to me coming back to the church even though it took many years. When my father died in 2010,the journey ended. I think he’s in purgatory praying for me.

 

[The_Reginator]

Hey! How about starting another thread? Way off topic but growing. Can we get back to Purgatory?

Can we get back to Purgatory?!?!?
If there I believe we’ll want to get out, not back in.
(Thanks for the laugh … that line hit my funny bone just the right way.)

Here’s one thought I’ve had for a while about the suffering we go through in purgatory.
In purgatory we are denied the beatific vision we will have in heaven AND we are denied the Eucharist too.
For all of us who truly love God that in itself would be painful.