Purgatory for Protestants?

[bbbbbbb]

I am new here so please forgive me if this has been discussed already and please direct me to the discussion(s).

In the not-so-distant past my Catholic friends were quite consistent in asserting that all Protestants would go to hell unless they converted to Catholicism. In recent years the Catholic Church has, IMO, shifted its public views of Protestants and now says that Protestants can share in the hope of salvation, that Protestant baptism is valid, and that Protestants are “separated brethren”.

My questions are relatively straightforward, as follow:

1. Can any person be saved who dies in mortal sin?
2. Is willfully and knowingly not attending regular weekly mass at a Catholic church a mortal sin?
3. If a Protestant dies without ever attending regular weekly mass at a Catholic church can he be saved?
4. If Protestants are saved, do they also go to Purgatory?
5. If a Protestant goes to Purgatory does he suffer torment and punishment for his lifetime of not being Catholic or does he merely suffer for the consequences of his other sins?
6. If Purgatory is a pleasant cleansing experience as some Catholics now preach, do Protestants also get this experience or are they sent somewhere else?

 

[Fauken]

I’ll take a crack at these. Welcome to CAF and a blessed Triduum to you!

1. No.
2. If one is Catholic, yes. If one is not Catholic, no.
3. Maybe.
4. Probably.
5. This answer is a guess. I would say probably both, since the Catholic Church is the true Church, so in this instance they would be dealing with whatever sinful inclination that was preventing them from joining.
6. Those Catholics who called purgatory pleasant were mistaken, purgatory is unpleasant. But purgatory is the same for all who are in it.

 

[lilypadrees]

Protestants don’t believe Purgatory is real. They believe in “saved by faith alone” and “once saved, always saved.” They also believe they’re going straight to Heaven because they’re saved (by faith alone).

The reality is that they will be judged. Jesus will determine whether they go to Heaven or Hell. Since they don’t belive in Purgatory, they better hope they don’t die with any sins on thier souls or their goose(s) is cooked.

If one has a valid reason for not attending Mass (like illness, weather, caring for a sick child or adult), they’re excused. If they aren’t going to Mass just because they don’t want to, that’s a different kettle of fish. Even if a Catholic goes to a Protestant church service, that doesn’t fulfill the Sunday obligation.

 

[guanophore]

I am new here so please forgive me if this has been discussed already and please direct me to the discussion(s).

It is always a good idea to search for an already open thread before beginning one.

Can any person be saved who dies in mortal sin?

No, but such a person would not want to be saved, because mortal sin is about rejecting God. Why would someone want to spend eternity with someone they rejected?

Is willfully and knowingly not attending regular weekly mass at a Catholic church a mortal sin?

In general, Catholics are obligated to attend Sunday Mass. Many also attend other weekly Masses. Sometimes people willfully and knowingly do not attend for reasons that are exempted such as illness, or caring for another who is ill.

If a Protestant dies without ever attending regular weekly mass at a Catholic church can he be saved?

God can save whoever He wants, however He likes. He created a Church to guide us to heaven, and the Church enjoins the faithful to be present to observe the Lord’s Day.

Most Protestants do not know what the Apostles believed and taught, and may well be invincibly ignorant.

If Protestants are saved, do they also go to Purgatory?

Nothing unclean can enter heaven, so anyone who is saved must be cleansed of any temporal consequences and attachments to sin. Only God knows the state of the soul at the moment of death.

If a Protestant goes to Purgatory does he suffer torment and punishment for his lifetime of not being Catholic or does he merely suffer for the consequences of his other sins?

The purpose of purgatory is purgation, to be purified as though with fire, so that we are fitted for heaven. Only God knows the degree of culpability a person bears for avoiding Him. He can also remit the consequences of other sins. He will do what is most appropriate for us to be sanctified so we are fit to dwell in His presence.

If Purgatory is a pleasant cleansing experience as some Catholics now preach, do Protestants also get this experience or are they sent somewhere else?

I have never heard Purgatory described as “pleasant”. It would seem to me that “only as through fire” would be painful.

All who are destined for heaven are afforded the experience of being purified, either in this life, or the next.

 

[JonNC]

I have never heard Purgatory described as “pleasant”. It would seem to me that “only as through fire” would be painful.

** Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. **. - Pope Benedict

Ratzinger/ Benedict also says it was s not some “supra-worldly concentration camp”, as Tertullian thought.
A moment of cleansing.

 

[guanophore]

A moment of cleansing.

1 Corinthians 15:52 “…in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.”

It is a human failing that we project our limited concepts of the space/time continuum onto spiritual realities.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

In the not-so-distant past my Catholic friends were quite consistent in asserting that all Protestants would go to hell unless they converted to Catholicism.

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

In recent years the Catholic Church has, IMO, shifted its public views of Protestants and now says that Protestants can share in the hope of salvation, that Protestant baptism is valid…

There is nothing very recent about this. My 1929 Baltimore Catechism says that Protestants can be saved.

Is willfully and knowingly not attending regular weekly mass at a Catholic church a mortal sin?

If one believed that the Catholic Church was the Church founded by Christ, why would one willfully and knowingly choose to remain outside it?

 

[JimG]

Purgatory is for everyone, not just Catholics.
No one can judge the state of another’s soul except Christ himself.
Nothing imperfect can enter heaven.
As we approach Christ, our imperfections snd attachments to sin are burned away.
Everyone who enters purgatory is on his way to heaven.

 

[mcq72]

The reality is that they will be judged. Jesus will determine whether they go to Heaven or Hell. Since they don’t belive in Purgatory, they better hope they don’t die with any sins on thier souls or their goose(s) is cooked.

Well, there are two judgements are their not?.

For P’s it is where we go upon death, heaven or hell. Secondly ,upon resurection all will be judged for our works in Christ, and will be rewarded accordingly.

Catholics are about the same i think…one upon death, heaven, purgatory, or hell…not sure if they teach the second judgement, for our works in Christ aftet resurrection.

Both Ps andCC believe in a cleansing, and sin forgiveness thru the Blood .Ps believe we will be changed and be like Him, when our flesh dies in the grave (not in purgatory), only the new man in Christ, the new nature, free from the old, will enter heaven.

So we all believe in a sort of purging.

I think CC teaching on purgatory is minimal, not going into detail but the actual practice of praying and offering indulgences and masses for souls in purgatory seems quite elaborate and where the two camps part ways

 

[mcq72]

As we approach Christ, our imperfections snd attachments to sin are burned away.

We believe imperfections and sin are of the old man , whose control has been dealt a deathly blow by new birth thru Calvary, finally dies upon death.Hence as Paul states, being alive in Christ, and already seated in heavenly places, but upon death, being absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. ( purgatory not being a place, not even a timeless “state” apparently)

 

[mcq72]

There is nothing very recent about this. My 1929 Baltimore Catechism says that Protestants can be saved.

Thank you…interesting…but how are they saved?..how does it compare to sec. Vat LumenGentium, where we are graced with Salvation remaing as protestants?

 

[LoyalViews]

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Outside the Church, there is no salvation.

Who are the members of the Church? The baptised - regardless of denomination. This is why we do not re-baptise converts. However, the Church is the only entity which possesses the fulness of truth. Only she, the Holy Mother Church - founded by Christ, and led through ages by the Vicar of Christ, is the true Church.

But Protestants, and indeed those separated by schism - Anglicans, the Orthodox, the Old Catholics, are our brethren in Christ. They are in imperfect communion with the Church, but are still our brethren.

Protestants are often born into Protestantism. Can we blame them, then, if they heed the message of their church and believe as they believe? Some men and women are told from the impressionable age of childhood that there’s no reason to worry about denomination, so long as you go to Church and be a good lad or lass. Continuing in the theme isn’t a sin, because a genuine conviction is invincible ignorance. Besides, they believe in truth - but are merely deprived the fulness of such.

Many Protestants might flee to purgatory. They will be glad to be there, as well, knowing that their Lord has not forgotten their faith.

 

[mcq72]

No, but such a person would not want to be saved, because mortal sin is about rejecting God. Why would someone want to spend eternity with someone they rejected?

So true…have heard the latter on the radio lately

 

[Whitney]

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

I hope this isn’t too off topic but it is a question about purgatory…
I attended tenebrae this evening and as they read Jesus’s words to the criminal next to him, ““And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”” ‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:43‬, I thought about purgatory? These words don’t make purgatory seem likely on face value, and also didn’t Jesus have other business to attend to prior to entering paradise? Namely descending, resurrecting, and ascending again?
Did the thief skip purgatory?

 

[Cathoholic]

Whitney . . . .

Jesus’s words to the criminal next to him, ““And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”” ‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:43‬, I thought about purgatory? These words don’t make purgatory seem likely on face value . . . .

Remember though, that “paradise” does not necessarily equal “Heaven”.

Recall also that by Easter, Jesus still had not yet “ascended” to the Father (suggesting this “paradise” may not be “Heaven” yet).

Adam and Eve were in a sort of “paradise”. But they were not in “Heaven”.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[lilypadrees]

We believe that those who go to Purgatory are guaranteed Heaven. So unless you go straight to Heaven, you’ll spend time in the “mud room” before you are seated at the Banquet.

 

[mcq72]

We believe that those who go to Purgatory are guaranteed Heaven. So unless you go straight to Heaven, you’ll spend time in the “mud room” before you are seated at the Banquet.

Thank you…by strict CC definition pretty sure it is not subject to place (mud room) and or possibly time, but certainly an event, which your mud room aptly suggests (like coming off the “streets” and putting on white garments for the “wedding”)

Again i believe it partly happens when one is born again (we become seated in hevenly places) and partly at death (final resting place for flesh of old man), and at resurection (where we will then be like Christ moreso), and finally at judgement seat of Christ for all believers.

 

[lilypadrees]

The reason Protestants don’t find much on Purgatory in the Bible is because it isn’t called “Purgatory” in the Bible. It’s known by other names. But part of the teaching is in your Bibles. Martin Luther had Maccabees removed. But if you get a Douay-Rheims, you’ll find it in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.”

In Matthew 5:26 and Luke 12:59 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.”

Matthew 12:32 says, “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Here Jesus speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 21:27: “…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.” The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is Heaven (Read the text around it for context).

 

[mcq72]

Martin Luther had Maccabees removed.

If I recall, he did not remove the “deutero” books, they were included, just that his preface treated them as such.

As to the Macabees reference, hard to understand that one committing mortal sin (idols involved) and being punished with death by God could then have sentence “commuted”,wiped clean, by such a subsequent offering of others. (read context around it).

Agree with your other passages just that they are met with the various "cleansing/purging “events” I mentioned.

 

[JonNC]

But part of the teaching is in your Bibles. Martin Luther had Maccabees removed.
But if you get a Douay-Rheims, you’ll find it in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.”

False.
It is in Luther’s translation, too.
He included it, and wrote a commentary on it.