J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
that’s what happens when people are taught a false doctrine, you know they are led astray.
- Status
M
Matrix_Refugee
Guest
We don’t know what goes on in a person’s mind and soul at the moment of death, and what they might be thinking or praying. St. Jean Marie Vianney once counselled a woman whose son had suicided by jumping off a bridge; she was terrified that her son’s soul would not be saved, and St. Jean said to her, “Remember, there is a distance from the bridge to the water,” meaning, the son could have repented of what he had done in that moment of time.
C
ConservativeOne
Guest
Sorry, if I answer this one without fully researching your link. But the thought of a burnt handprint would frighten me. Therefore, afraid to look. Do I believe in Purgatory? YES ! I wish we could have signs of loved ones who have - hopefully - reached there. At least, that would be a sign that their soul’s fate had destined them to Heaven - by God’s Mercy. The greatest pain here - is not their phyical loss - but not knowing where they are - if that loved one is safely on their way to God. It’s an ache that begins on the inside - almost from the heart - on out.
Eternal Rest grant unto them all, Dear Lord, and let Perpetual Light shine upon them. May they rest in peace. Amen.
Eternal Rest grant unto them all, Dear Lord, and let Perpetual Light shine upon them. May they rest in peace. Amen.
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
looking for signs are you?
Luke 16:30 " ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said. ‘But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 "But he told him, 'If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.
You have proof my friend, repent and put your trust in Jesus Christ!
God Bless
Luke 16:30 " ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said. ‘But if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 "But he told him, 'If they don’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.
You have proof my friend, repent and put your trust in Jesus Christ!
God Bless
4
4EverHis
Guest
but the Catholic Church does not teach false doctrines and purgatory is not a false doctrine.
It could very well be that if this private revelation is false, it’s the devil trying to confuse people, but it doesn’t mean there is no purgatory. The devil distorts the truth, he doesn’t invent. Often his lies sound very much like the truth.
(btw, I’m not saying this revelation is false…it might also be true…I’m not sure what the Church says on it so I’m staying neutral)
R
r4j
Guest
I read all of the posts but didn’t go on the link. And I wasn’t going to comment but after I clicked to go to the forums, I remembered something from a CD I was listening to today. It’s John Shea’s CD on the Gospel of St. John. St. John never calls uses the word miracles when talking about what Jesus did - he calls them signs and wonders. And the author says that St. John doesn’t want people to get caught in marvelling or the fireworks or the spectacle (think of all the “reality” TV today). St. John wants us to pay attention to what the signs point to.
He says Jesus too knew the people wanted the signs of destruction that Moses had done and then they would believe but Jesus did not do such things. He would bring healing and life.
I just thought of this after reading all your posts.
He says Jesus too knew the people wanted the signs of destruction that Moses had done and then they would believe but Jesus did not do such things. He would bring healing and life.
I just thought of this after reading all your posts.
C
ConservativeOne
Guest
Well said. And probably the above reply better interprets what I was trying to say. A burnt handprint - could be misleading…an either/or possibility. And if private revelation before / rather than approved by Holy Mother the Church, we must be vigilant.
And thanks to “r4j” for pointing out the word “signs” in Biblical quotes. I’d been so hesitant when a fellow Catholic warned me about asking for signs being a form of tempting God. I guess we have to ask God for guidance when we ask for something.
5
57classic
Guest
I first read the story of a burned handprint in Novena for the Relief of the Poor Souls in Purgatory published by Hoffman Novenas of Brookfield, WI. Apparently the publisher is out of business but the entire novena is on line and the story of the burned handprint is here:
breviary.net/allsoulsguild/novena/day4.htm
There are several other accounts of souls allowed to beg for prayers within this novena as pious examples of what our prayers can accomplish for the Church Suffering.
As a postscript: I am not going to defend these accounts. I am only posting this because it is pertanent to the discussion. I guess I am suffering from an attitude problem but lately it seems if I post someting from printed material, others want me to defend it as though I had published it myself.
breviary.net/allsoulsguild/novena/day4.htm
There are several other accounts of souls allowed to beg for prayers within this novena as pious examples of what our prayers can accomplish for the Church Suffering.
As a postscript: I am not going to defend these accounts. I am only posting this because it is pertanent to the discussion. I guess I am suffering from an attitude problem but lately it seems if I post someting from printed material, others want me to defend it as though I had published it myself.
S
Shin
Guest
If you are interested in reliable accounts of the holy souls in purgatory and visitations and revelations in that regard (and I recall there are a few burning incidents) you should read Rev. F.X. Schouppe’s, book, ‘Purgatory’.
You can buy it from Tan Books. Or if you’re el cheapo, download a moderate quality PDF of it here.
An excerpt:
There was at the convent of Franciscan Tertiaries in Foligno, a sister named Teresa Gesta, who had been for many years mistress of novices, and who at the same time had charge of the sacristy of the community. She was born at Bastia, in Corsica, in 1797, and entered the monastery in the year 1826.
Sister Teresa was a model of fervour and charity. We need not be astonished, said her director, if God glorifies her by some prodigy after her death.
She died suddenly, November 4, 1859, of a stroke of apoplexy.
Twelve days later, on November 16, a sister named Anna Felicia, who succeeded her in office, went to the sacristy and was about to enter, when she heard moans which appeared to come from the interior of the room. Somewhat afraid, she hastened to open the door; there was no one. Again she heard moans, and so distinctly that, notwithstanding her ordinary courage, she felt herself over powered by fear. "Jesus! Mary ! " she cried, "what can that be ? " She had not finished speaking when she heard a plaintive voice, accompanied with a painful sigh, "Oh! my God, how I suffer ! Oh I Dio, die peno tanto ! " The sister, stupefied, immediately recognised the voice of poor Sister Teresa. Then the room was filled with a thick smoke, and the spirit of Sister Teresa appeared, moving towards the door, and gliding along by the wall. Having reached the door, she cried aloud, “Behold a proof of the mercy of God” Saying these words, she struck the upper panel of the door, and there left the print of her right hand, burnt in the wood as with a red-hot iron. She then disappeared.
Sister Anna Felicia was left half dead with fright. She burst forth into loud cries for help. One of her companions ran, then a second, and finally the whole community. They pressed around her, astonished to find a strong odour of burnt wood. Sister Anna Felicia told what had occurred, and showed them the terrible impression on the door. They instantly recognised the hand of Sister Teresa, which had been remarkably small. Terrified, they took to flight and ran to the choir, where they passed the night in prayer and penance for the departed, and the following morning all received Holy Communion for the repose of her soul. The news spread outside the convent walls, and many communities in the city united their prayers with those of the Franciscans. On the third day, November 1 8, Sister Anna Felicia, on going in the evening to her cell, heard herself called by her name, and recognised perfectly the voice of Sister Teresa. At the same instant a globe of brilliant light appeared before her, illuminating her cell with the brightness of daylight. She then heard Sister Teresa pronounce these words in a joyful and triumphant voice: “I died on a Friday, the day of the Passion, and behold, on a Friday, I enter into eternal glory! Be strong to bear the cross, be courageous to suffer, love poverty.” Then adding, affectionately, “Adieu, adieu, adieu!” she became transfigured, and like a light, white, and dazzling cloud, rose towards Heaven and disappeared.
During the investigation which was held immediately, November 23, in the presence of a large number of witnesses, the tomb of Sister Teresa was opened, and the impression upon the door was found to correspond exactly with the hand of the deceased. " The door, with the burnt print of the hand," adds Mgr. Segur, " is preserved with great veneration in the convent. The Mother Abbess, witness of the fact, was pleased to show it to me herself."
Wishing to assure myself of the perfect exactitude of these details related by Mgr. Segur, I wrote to the Bishop of Foligno. He replied by giving me a circumstantial account, perfectly according with the above, and accompanied by a facsimile of the miraculous mark. This narrative explains the cause of the terrible expiation to which Sister Teresa was subjected. After saying, " Ah! how much I suffer! Oh! Dio, che peno tanto!" she added that it was for having, in the exercise of her office of Sacristan, transgressed in some points the strict poverty prescribed by the Rule.
Pray for the holy souls!
You can buy it from Tan Books. Or if you’re el cheapo, download a moderate quality PDF of it here.
An excerpt:
There was at the convent of Franciscan Tertiaries in Foligno, a sister named Teresa Gesta, who had been for many years mistress of novices, and who at the same time had charge of the sacristy of the community. She was born at Bastia, in Corsica, in 1797, and entered the monastery in the year 1826.
Sister Teresa was a model of fervour and charity. We need not be astonished, said her director, if God glorifies her by some prodigy after her death.
She died suddenly, November 4, 1859, of a stroke of apoplexy.
Twelve days later, on November 16, a sister named Anna Felicia, who succeeded her in office, went to the sacristy and was about to enter, when she heard moans which appeared to come from the interior of the room. Somewhat afraid, she hastened to open the door; there was no one. Again she heard moans, and so distinctly that, notwithstanding her ordinary courage, she felt herself over powered by fear. "Jesus! Mary ! " she cried, "what can that be ? " She had not finished speaking when she heard a plaintive voice, accompanied with a painful sigh, "Oh! my God, how I suffer ! Oh I Dio, die peno tanto ! " The sister, stupefied, immediately recognised the voice of poor Sister Teresa. Then the room was filled with a thick smoke, and the spirit of Sister Teresa appeared, moving towards the door, and gliding along by the wall. Having reached the door, she cried aloud, “Behold a proof of the mercy of God” Saying these words, she struck the upper panel of the door, and there left the print of her right hand, burnt in the wood as with a red-hot iron. She then disappeared.
Sister Anna Felicia was left half dead with fright. She burst forth into loud cries for help. One of her companions ran, then a second, and finally the whole community. They pressed around her, astonished to find a strong odour of burnt wood. Sister Anna Felicia told what had occurred, and showed them the terrible impression on the door. They instantly recognised the hand of Sister Teresa, which had been remarkably small. Terrified, they took to flight and ran to the choir, where they passed the night in prayer and penance for the departed, and the following morning all received Holy Communion for the repose of her soul. The news spread outside the convent walls, and many communities in the city united their prayers with those of the Franciscans. On the third day, November 1 8, Sister Anna Felicia, on going in the evening to her cell, heard herself called by her name, and recognised perfectly the voice of Sister Teresa. At the same instant a globe of brilliant light appeared before her, illuminating her cell with the brightness of daylight. She then heard Sister Teresa pronounce these words in a joyful and triumphant voice: “I died on a Friday, the day of the Passion, and behold, on a Friday, I enter into eternal glory! Be strong to bear the cross, be courageous to suffer, love poverty.” Then adding, affectionately, “Adieu, adieu, adieu!” she became transfigured, and like a light, white, and dazzling cloud, rose towards Heaven and disappeared.
During the investigation which was held immediately, November 23, in the presence of a large number of witnesses, the tomb of Sister Teresa was opened, and the impression upon the door was found to correspond exactly with the hand of the deceased. " The door, with the burnt print of the hand," adds Mgr. Segur, " is preserved with great veneration in the convent. The Mother Abbess, witness of the fact, was pleased to show it to me herself."
Wishing to assure myself of the perfect exactitude of these details related by Mgr. Segur, I wrote to the Bishop of Foligno. He replied by giving me a circumstantial account, perfectly according with the above, and accompanied by a facsimile of the miraculous mark. This narrative explains the cause of the terrible expiation to which Sister Teresa was subjected. After saying, " Ah! how much I suffer! Oh! Dio, che peno tanto!" she added that it was for having, in the exercise of her office of Sacristan, transgressed in some points the strict poverty prescribed by the Rule.
Pray for the holy souls!
J
JoeMike
Guest
If we wait until those last few minutes to accept God and repent, then we have a lifetime’s worth of accumulated temporal punishment coming to us in Purgatory.
On the other hand, if we confess regularly and take advantage of the opportunities to gain indulgences, we can greatly shorten our time in Purgatory.
**So that’s a great motivation to live well: make Purgatory as light and brief as possible.
**Come to think of it, that was one of the biggest messages of Maria Simma’s book: Do whatever you can do now, to shorten your Purgatory, and do whatever you can do to help the Pour Souls who are there now. And they will help you when it’s your turn, if you need help.
C
ConservativeOne
Guest
Based on Shin’s post regarding the quote from the book, “Purgatory” - it gives me frightening pause. I have the book, somewhere, and recall some of it years ago scaring me. But this? A nun suffering like that? Oh, my God - what must await me - if I reach Purgatory? We speak about expiation here on earth - but one must wonder how little expiation is accomplished in relation to the sins, however many, venial or mortal - even after confessed. Selfishly, I fear for my soul and for those deceased members of my own family.
It emphasizes what I say often (not necessarily here but elsewhere). We speak of the deceased saying they were a good person, they’re not suffering anymore / that they’re with God - and similar sayings…People assume too much. Souls are not prayed for.
If a nun suffered as described - Please, God, help us.
It emphasizes what I say often (not necessarily here but elsewhere). We speak of the deceased saying they were a good person, they’re not suffering anymore / that they’re with God - and similar sayings…People assume too much. Souls are not prayed for.
If a nun suffered as described - Please, God, help us.
S
Shin
Guest
If you recall the old system of indulgences, they were specified with exact amounts of how many years of penance they were worth. Under the new system they are only worthy in the cases of partial indulgences, the equivalent of what you put in again.
You would have indulgences of 100 days, of months, of years. Now only partial/plenary, and all the old indulgenced acts by various Popes wiped out with a new rather general approach.
From early Christian times to today, various sins have had various set penances. I recall reading in a catechism that the reason these penances were lightened was so as not to scare people away from repentance, but the price for this was that people would be less likely to do the necessary penance on earth.
In other words, people who would not return to God because the penances were too strong, pay for this ultimately and so do we all.
Indulgences were given to remedy their lightening as best could be done. We must remember an indulgence is… an indulgence. . they are not a standard, but an exception to a standard.
St. Charles Borromeo for example, lived in the 1500s, the penances given then were quite similar to those of the early Church. For a young child who spoke hatefully to his parents, it could be several months to years of some restriction or other!
In other words, there are basically set amounts of penance due each kind of sin, and these do not change with the times because they are from God’s perspective of divine justice – they are quite long and hard from our (deficient) modern perspective, but, because of the bad wills of the people these penances have not been required for a long time (and so in bad times, even dropped out of the minds of the clergy). This is not a mercy of God in the end, but a punishment since the clergy forget what the people would not do.
So we have to take it upon ourselves now and demonstrate to God as a people willingness to step up to His ways.
We have angels appearing and crying out, ‘Penance, penance, penance’ in revelations to the whole world – these are not times of high virtue and spiritual faith – it is not something to not take seriously.
I heartily recommend a devotion to the holy souls, to Divine Mercy, and the seeking of both the state of soul and will and life necessary to receive plenary indulgences. That kind of purity of heart is really worth seeking.
It will make a great difference in your spiritual life and your afterlife.
You would have indulgences of 100 days, of months, of years. Now only partial/plenary, and all the old indulgenced acts by various Popes wiped out with a new rather general approach.
From early Christian times to today, various sins have had various set penances. I recall reading in a catechism that the reason these penances were lightened was so as not to scare people away from repentance, but the price for this was that people would be less likely to do the necessary penance on earth.
In other words, people who would not return to God because the penances were too strong, pay for this ultimately and so do we all.
Indulgences were given to remedy their lightening as best could be done. We must remember an indulgence is… an indulgence. . they are not a standard, but an exception to a standard.
St. Charles Borromeo for example, lived in the 1500s, the penances given then were quite similar to those of the early Church. For a young child who spoke hatefully to his parents, it could be several months to years of some restriction or other!
In other words, there are basically set amounts of penance due each kind of sin, and these do not change with the times because they are from God’s perspective of divine justice – they are quite long and hard from our (deficient) modern perspective, but, because of the bad wills of the people these penances have not been required for a long time (and so in bad times, even dropped out of the minds of the clergy). This is not a mercy of God in the end, but a punishment since the clergy forget what the people would not do.
So we have to take it upon ourselves now and demonstrate to God as a people willingness to step up to His ways.
We have angels appearing and crying out, ‘Penance, penance, penance’ in revelations to the whole world – these are not times of high virtue and spiritual faith – it is not something to not take seriously.
I heartily recommend a devotion to the holy souls, to Divine Mercy, and the seeking of both the state of soul and will and life necessary to receive plenary indulgences. That kind of purity of heart is really worth seeking.
It will make a great difference in your spiritual life and your afterlife.
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
okay, convince me.
i ask this question, where is Jesus at this very moment?
make me a believer of purgatory.
God bless.
i ask this question, where is Jesus at this very moment?
make me a believer of purgatory.
God bless.
S
Shin
Guest
I don’t know what it would take. We have an authoritative Church He left us, so – we know. That is the foundation from which all else springs.
I will tell you what I think.
You could for example, look at the Jewish sacrifices and how their entire lives revolved around God’s justice, and then at Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, and ask yourself if we can then live lives totally divorced from justice without any reference to it. The Cross pays for us, but only so much as we embrace it. And what does it mean to embrace it?
And you can then look at the Early Church and see that they clearly understood justice continued, now with mercy, and the gates of Heaven opened for those who participate in Christ’s sacrifice. And how do you participate in Christ’s sacrifice?
You join Him in penance and paying for justice. You become like Him, and live in Him. And how did He live? A live of sacrifice for the sake of Man’s sins, the price they are due for justice. The sacrifice is performed for the sake of love.
Because we love our fellow men we suffer for them what we are not due to pay, we forgive them debts they properly owe us, and we pay their debts for them. And because we show this charity and mercy God forgives us more of what we owe.
God IS justice, and God IS mercy, and God IS love.
So He calls us to be living sacrifices like His son. There is no more virtuous and good and beautiful soul than this.
Our Father, who art in Heaven. . .
Greater love hath no man than this.
We have an authoritative Church He left us, so – we know. That is the foundation from which all else springs.I will tell you what I think.
You could for example, look at the Jewish sacrifices and how their entire lives revolved around God’s justice, and then at Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, and ask yourself if we can then live lives totally divorced from justice without any reference to it. The Cross pays for us, but only so much as we embrace it. And what does it mean to embrace it?
And you can then look at the Early Church and see that they clearly understood justice continued, now with mercy, and the gates of Heaven opened for those who participate in Christ’s sacrifice. And how do you participate in Christ’s sacrifice?
You join Him in penance and paying for justice. You become like Him, and live in Him. And how did He live? A live of sacrifice for the sake of Man’s sins, the price they are due for justice. The sacrifice is performed for the sake of love.
Because we love our fellow men we suffer for them what we are not due to pay, we forgive them debts they properly owe us, and we pay their debts for them. And because we show this charity and mercy God forgives us more of what we owe.
God IS justice, and God IS mercy, and God IS love.
So He calls us to be living sacrifices like His son. There is no more virtuous and good and beautiful soul than this.
Our Father, who art in Heaven. . .
Greater love hath no man than this.
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
sounds like a work righteous program to me, thank you
S
Shin
Guest
If you are going to take that approach you should ask this question in the Apologetics forum and they will set you straight there.
If you think love is only a thought rather than an act of will, take a look at what scripture has to say love is, and who loves Christ.
We have to will to love Christ, not just speculate or think of it as a wonderful idea. That is real Faith.
And with that will comes sacrifice.
J
Jerry_Marino
Guest
you talk of sacrifice and penance in the same breath but the way i believe is that Christ’s sacrifice was done for my sins.
here we talk of purgatory though, if i a sinner have come to believe in the work of Jesus on the cross and repent putting my trust in Him for my salvation, what happens when i die?
the catholics believe in going into a purgatory state where one goes through a purging, a purifying state, and i beg to differ to that belief. like i’ve i stated above, i heard the gospel and i believe, repenting of my sins turning towards God for my salvation. Christ paid in full what i deserve there is nothing that i could do partake in paying my debt.
my question on the post requesting convincing is, where is Jesus?
this is an important question because if we as believers are in Jesus now as we live that is where we will be when we die?
the Holy Spirit is doing His work in us as we live this life, purifying, sanctifying us.
when lazarus died, did not the angels come to take him to the bosom of abraham?
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. (john 15:4)
convince me?
here we talk of purgatory though, if i a sinner have come to believe in the work of Jesus on the cross and repent putting my trust in Him for my salvation, what happens when i die?
the catholics believe in going into a purgatory state where one goes through a purging, a purifying state, and i beg to differ to that belief. like i’ve i stated above, i heard the gospel and i believe, repenting of my sins turning towards God for my salvation. Christ paid in full what i deserve there is nothing that i could do partake in paying my debt.
my question on the post requesting convincing is, where is Jesus?
this is an important question because if we as believers are in Jesus now as we live that is where we will be when we die?
the Holy Spirit is doing His work in us as we live this life, purifying, sanctifying us.
when lazarus died, did not the angels come to take him to the bosom of abraham?
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. (john 15:4)
convince me?
S
Shin
Guest
I don’t like to debate, I like to pursue truth with those who love it. It’s an entirely different interior approach. It excludes the closed who want a war of words and rhetoric, because even when you win these as you always do with the truth against the closed minded – they are closed. So… I don’t like to debate. I like to pursue with the open minded.
I’ve said some things that are very beautiful. . . men acting as Christ did, becoming Christs to others in all ways, including his sacrifice. . . and of the necessity of this to enter Heaven.
Are you open or closed in your heart and mind to these ideas? Have you thought about how beautiful they are?
Do you appreciate them interiorly?
God says to the sleepers, ‘Awake!’
Try reading the apologetics here, and pray to God. Pursue truth for your own soul’s sake and God’s sake, be open to whatever it is how surprising, different, and yet somehow in the heart it will be.
I will keep replying unless you want a debate in which case it’s a forum away, you’ll have what you ask for. Open heartedness and open minded seeking for the truth is the true way to find it, rather than debate.
Repentance is also translated as Penance in Catholic Bibles. This shows it’s an act of will and deed and time, and not only a thought. I would like you to think about the difference between thought and will.
Look inside your mind and how it works, introspectively.
I can hold an idea in my mind and be pleased or displeased with it, desire it and delight in it or hate it and discard it. This is thought and imagination and desire and the attention of the will. But true strength of will, true will is the heart, the true love or lack thereof.
You can -will- repentance or you can -not will it- and only be sorrowful, but still -will- the sin if you could achieve it.
When you lift a weight your will is greater than when you lift a tea cup. You can measure it. It takes greater force of will to lift the weight. The heavier the weight the greater the will.
How strong is your -will- to love God, not merely your wishful thinking?
We are full of false ideas and good intentions. We pretend we did something for God’s sake but we truly only did it because we were pleased by it. Think about how and why Job was put to the test.
A true love of God loves Him in trial as well as in delight. A false love, ‘loves’ Him only when given good things.
Every human being is put to the test, just like angels were. This test is a test of will, not of wishful thinking and thought. It is a test of purity.
How do you prove to yourself that you truly love God? You do for Him what you do not wish to do. Otherwise you only serve your own will. This creates purer deeds for God.
Our wills and hearts are corrupt, they need to serve God only, not sin, not selfishness.
You cannot serve two masters. You cannot serve God and yourself, because your will is selfish and corrupt. And has built up illusions and castles of human wisdom rather than dependence on His Revelation, however strange it may seem to the world.
His Revelation is revealed through His Church, He founded it for this purpose. Upon the rock of St. Peter He built His Church, and history reveals this is true. [see the Church Fathers, read these and their quotes on Catholic Answers and New Advent]
The only way to purify your will is through the Cross. That is, by sacrificing it and making it do for God what it does not want to do itself. That is love. This is real, not a thought. When your will does anything and everything for God however painful, and however lacking the immediate reward, that is perfect love.
Everyone in Heaven has perfect love for God. Every act of less than perfect love, creates an injustice that has to be remedied.
The penalty for all sin is Hell. That is lifted through the Cross when we sufficiently embrace it, but the Cross does not wash away the rest of the penalties of sin unless we embrace it completely with our whole selves. We still suffer and are punished on this Earth. We still pay the price on Earth and in Purgatory. Is the Cross less efficacious for this? No. It shows we are less with Christ than we should be.
Everyone on Earth is -supposed to have perfect love of God on Earth and not wait for Heaven to get it-. To do so may be to wait till it is too late.
If your will is too flawed, to sinful, despite your wishful thinking and admiration, you can go to Hell, that’s the real story, not the ‘I give you a complete pass because even though you hate me, you think you love me and said prayer to that effect.’ ‘I never knew ye’ He says to many.
St. Paul said his sufferings make up what is lacking in Christ’s. What is lacking? Your will to suffer, your deeds of Christ. Real virtue. Real Christianity.
Christ said to give up everything and follow Him, and to bear His cross, that he who loves Him obeys His commands – any other ‘love’ is a false love.
The scriptures say that those whose deeds are not pure will be thrown into the fire for purification. Not pure means, full of the flaws of venial sins.
People who die in venial sin and with injustices not corrected go to Purgatory. They go to Heaven through fire.
1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).
1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.
There’re plenty of pages on Catholic Answers that list the scriptures, and here’s another one with some of the writings of the early Christians, the martyrs, the real Christians who died for Christ.
Read that one I pray, the scriptures and I particularly would pay attention to Sts. Perpetua and Felicity.
I’ve said some things that are very beautiful. . . men acting as Christ did, becoming Christs to others in all ways, including his sacrifice. . . and of the necessity of this to enter Heaven.
Are you open or closed in your heart and mind to these ideas? Have you thought about how beautiful they are?
Do you appreciate them interiorly?
God says to the sleepers, ‘Awake!’
Try reading the apologetics here, and pray to God. Pursue truth for your own soul’s sake and God’s sake, be open to whatever it is how surprising, different, and yet somehow in the heart it will be.
I will keep replying unless you want a debate in which case it’s a forum away, you’ll have what you ask for. Open heartedness and open minded seeking for the truth is the true way to find it, rather than debate.
Repentance is also translated as Penance in Catholic Bibles. This shows it’s an act of will and deed and time, and not only a thought. I would like you to think about the difference between thought and will.
Look inside your mind and how it works, introspectively.
I can hold an idea in my mind and be pleased or displeased with it, desire it and delight in it or hate it and discard it. This is thought and imagination and desire and the attention of the will. But true strength of will, true will is the heart, the true love or lack thereof.
You can -will- repentance or you can -not will it- and only be sorrowful, but still -will- the sin if you could achieve it.
When you lift a weight your will is greater than when you lift a tea cup. You can measure it. It takes greater force of will to lift the weight. The heavier the weight the greater the will.
How strong is your -will- to love God, not merely your wishful thinking?
We are full of false ideas and good intentions. We pretend we did something for God’s sake but we truly only did it because we were pleased by it. Think about how and why Job was put to the test.
A true love of God loves Him in trial as well as in delight. A false love, ‘loves’ Him only when given good things.
Every human being is put to the test, just like angels were. This test is a test of will, not of wishful thinking and thought. It is a test of purity.
How do you prove to yourself that you truly love God? You do for Him what you do not wish to do. Otherwise you only serve your own will. This creates purer deeds for God.
Our wills and hearts are corrupt, they need to serve God only, not sin, not selfishness.
You cannot serve two masters. You cannot serve God and yourself, because your will is selfish and corrupt. And has built up illusions and castles of human wisdom rather than dependence on His Revelation, however strange it may seem to the world.
His Revelation is revealed through His Church, He founded it for this purpose. Upon the rock of St. Peter He built His Church, and history reveals this is true. [see the Church Fathers, read these and their quotes on Catholic Answers and New Advent]
The only way to purify your will is through the Cross. That is, by sacrificing it and making it do for God what it does not want to do itself. That is love. This is real, not a thought. When your will does anything and everything for God however painful, and however lacking the immediate reward, that is perfect love.
Everyone in Heaven has perfect love for God. Every act of less than perfect love, creates an injustice that has to be remedied.
The penalty for all sin is Hell. That is lifted through the Cross when we sufficiently embrace it, but the Cross does not wash away the rest of the penalties of sin unless we embrace it completely with our whole selves. We still suffer and are punished on this Earth. We still pay the price on Earth and in Purgatory. Is the Cross less efficacious for this? No. It shows we are less with Christ than we should be.
Everyone on Earth is -supposed to have perfect love of God on Earth and not wait for Heaven to get it-. To do so may be to wait till it is too late.
If your will is too flawed, to sinful, despite your wishful thinking and admiration, you can go to Hell, that’s the real story, not the ‘I give you a complete pass because even though you hate me, you think you love me and said prayer to that effect.’ ‘I never knew ye’ He says to many.
St. Paul said his sufferings make up what is lacking in Christ’s. What is lacking? Your will to suffer, your deeds of Christ. Real virtue. Real Christianity.
Christ said to give up everything and follow Him, and to bear His cross, that he who loves Him obeys His commands – any other ‘love’ is a false love.
The scriptures say that those whose deeds are not pure will be thrown into the fire for purification. Not pure means, full of the flaws of venial sins.
People who die in venial sin and with injustices not corrected go to Purgatory. They go to Heaven through fire.
1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).
1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.
There’re plenty of pages on Catholic Answers that list the scriptures, and here’s another one with some of the writings of the early Christians, the martyrs, the real Christians who died for Christ.
Read that one I pray, the scriptures and I particularly would pay attention to Sts. Perpetua and Felicity.
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