Purgatory help follow up question

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Thank you for all of your help in my previous post looking for help on Purgatory. I have read most of the links and think I have a better understanding of the Catholic belief. My follow up question is this: In order for me to join the Catholic Church do I have to believe that Purgatory absolutely positively does exist or can I believe from our limited human understanding it certainly seems as though Purgatory most likely does exist?

Anything clearly revealed to us by God in scripture is not a problem for me to accept as a 100% truth. in regards to Purgatory some versuses can be read as alluding to it and it makes sense from the point that we would have to be cleansed before entering Heaven, but it is not clearly revealed to us from God. So at this point I believe that there is a strong possibility that some form of Purgatory does exist but I also hold the belief that this may not be the case as none of us in our human nature can even begin to understand how God works and if he didn’t reveal it to us clearly then we can’t know for certain.

So would this keep me from being able to join the Church or is this an ok way to view Purgatory?

Thank you again for your assistance on this journey.
 
Thank you for all of your help in my previous post looking for help on Purgatory. I have read most of the links and think I have a better understanding of the Catholic belief. My follow up question is this: In order for me to join the Catholic Church do I have to believe that Purgatory absolutely positively does exist or can I believe from our limited human understanding it certainly seems as though Purgatory most likely does exist?

Anything clearly revealed to us by God in scripture is not a problem for me to accept as a 100% truth. in regards to Purgatory some versuses can be read as alluding to it and it makes sense from the point that we would have to be cleansed before entering Heaven, but it is not clearly revealed to us from God. So at this point I believe that there is a strong possibility that some form of Purgatory does exist but I also hold the belief that this may not be the case as none of us in our human nature can even begin to understand how God works and if he didn’t reveal it to us clearly then we can’t know for certain.

So would this keep me from being able to join the Church or is this an ok way to view Purgatory?

Thank you again for your assistance on this journey.
In Spe Salvi the Holy Father describes the doctrine of purgatory as belonging not to the “Catholic Church” but to the “Western Church.” So, if you are thinking of entering The Church as in one of the Eastern Sui Juris Churches, you’re good to go. If you are thinking of entering the Latin Rite, then it is De Fide for you to accept in with the assent of Faith.
 
I think you are asking the wrong question, and the wrong kind of question. You should not want to join the Catholic Church unless you believe she teaches divinely-inspired and protected truth. If you believe this, then individual doctrines cease to be matters of “I’m not sure I believe this, can I still be Catholic?” and become matters of “since I believe the Catholic Church must teach the truth on these questions, it only remains for me to try and understand the truth that she teaches on this subject.”

It’s like the apostles in John 6. When Jesus asked “do you also wish to leave?” they didn’t say “no Lord, we understand and believe all of this.” Rather they said “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” So they were saying, Lord, we don’t really understand what you’re saying, but we accept it because we believe you are the Holy One of God. Likewise, if you believe the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, and has the words of eternal life, then your only job is to try to understand those words, but in any case, to accept those words.
 
Thank you for all of your help in my previous post looking for help on Purgatory. I have read most of the links and think I have a better understanding of the Catholic belief. My follow up question is this: In order for me to join the Catholic Church do I have to believe that Purgatory absolutely positively does exist or can I believe from our limited human understanding it certainly seems as though Purgatory most likely does exist?

Anything clearly revealed to us by God in scripture is not a problem for me to accept as a 100% truth. in regards to Purgatory some versuses can be read as alluding to it and it makes sense from the point that we would have to be cleansed before entering Heaven, but it is not clearly revealed to us from God. So at this point I believe that there is a strong possibility that some form of Purgatory does exist but I also hold the belief that this may not be the case as none of us in our human nature can even begin to understand how God works and if he didn’t reveal it to us clearly then we can’t know for certain.

So would this keep me from being able to join the Church or is this an ok way to view Purgatory?

Thank you again for your assistance on this journey.
To simply expand upon what VociMike has already stated, you should only join the Catholic Church if you truly believe that it teaches divinely inspired truth. This is where I have an issue your post where you say “but it is not clearly revealed to us from God”, we Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church in its deliberations and definitions of doctrine and dogma. This means that we believe that God truly has revealed His knowledge through the Church. So from my perspective, as a Catholic, God has clearly revealed the fact of Purgatory’s existence by moving the Church to define such a doctrine. That is all I really wanted to add, good luck to you on your journey!
 
To simply expand upon what VociMike has already stated, you should only join the Catholic Church if you truly believe that it teaches divinely inspired truth. This is where I have an issue your post where you say “but it is not clearly revealed to us from God”, we Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit guides the Church in its deliberations and definitions of doctrine and dogma. This means that we believe that God truly has revealed His knowledge through the Church. So from my perspective, as a Catholic, God has clearly revealed the fact of Purgatory’s existence by moving the Church to define such a doctrine. That is all I really wanted to add, good luck to you on your journey!
Just like limbo. What’s the latest on that?
 
In Spe Salvi the Holy Father describes the doctrine of purgatory as belonging not to the “Catholic Church” but to the “Western Church.” So, if you are thinking of entering The Church as in one of the Eastern Sui Juris Churches, you’re good to go. If you are thinking of entering the Latin Rite, then it is De Fide for you to accept in with the assent of Faith.
I thought there was one church? What about southern churches?
 
I thought there was one church? What about southern churches?
The Catholic Church is a communion of 23 Sui Juris Churches including the ancient churches of Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, etc. One can explain the same thing in ways that illuminate the subject differently and yet are fully compatible. The main schools of thought and expressions of understanding, passed down from the time of the Apostles, are the Western Church and the Eastern Church approaches. But one must remember that Peter and Andrew are brothers, not rivals. They are two equally valid expressions of the one Deposit of Faith. We in the West are, of course, more familiar with Western thought, but the Light of The East, as it has been referred to for over a thousand years, is a thoroughly orthodox and very beautiful expression of the Christian Faith.

If you are interested in learning more, here is a great exposition of it: east2west.org/
 
Just like limbo. What’s the latest on that?
To my knowledge limbo has never been definitely defined as a doctrine or dogma, the word “limbo” doesn’t appear in the catechism, the concept of limbo does though, and this is what is said:
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
As to your question of “What’s the latest on that?” I suppose the latest is simply we must “entrust them to the mercy of God”. From the tone of your post, is it safe to assume that you don’t believe that baptism is necessary for salvation?
 
We want to be careful about saying something is de fide, because if it’s de fide for anyone then it is de fide for everyone. 🙂

Here is what I know concerning our required assent of faith to the doctrine of purgatory. Thomas Aquinas taught the following:

“Gregory of Nyssa De iis qui in fide dormiunt] says: ‘If one who loves and believes in Christ,’ has failed to wash away his sins in this life, ‘he is set free after death by the fire of Purgatory.’ Therefore there remains some kind of cleansing after this life.

“…[T]hose who deny Purgatory speak against the justice of God: for which reason such a statement is erroneous and contrary to faith. Hence Gregory of Nyssa, after the words quoted above, adds: ‘This we preach, holding to the teaching of truth, and this is our belief; this the universal Church holds, by praying for the dead that they may be loosed from sins.’ This cannot be understood except as referring to Purgatory: and whosoever resists the authority of the Church, incurs the note of heresy” (, Supplement to the Third Part, Appendix II: PurgatorySumma Theologica).

“The power of [the sacrament of the Body of Christ], however, is lessened by those who deny there exists a purgatory after death; for on the souls in purgatory special healing is conferred by this sacrament. For Gregory of Nyssa in his sermon on the dead says: ‘If anyone here in his frail life has been less than able to cleanse himself of sin, after departing hence, through the blazing fire of purgatory the penalty is the more quickly paid, the more and more the ever-faithful Bride offers to her Spouse in memory of his passion gifts and holocausts on behalf of the children she has brought forth for that Spouse by word and sacrament; just as we preach in fidelity to this dogmatic truth, so we believe.’

“Likewise Theodoret, Bishop of Cyr, commenting on that passage of 1 Cor. 3: 11: If any man’s work burn, etc., says thus: ‘The Apostle states that one is saved thus as through a blazing fire cleansing whatever accumulated through carelessness in life’s activity, or at least from the dust of the feet of earthly living. In this fire one remains so long as any earthly and bodily affections are being purged. For such a person holy Mother Church prays and devoutly offers peace offerings, and so through this such a one emerging clean and pure assists immaculate before the most pure eyes of the Lord of hosts’” (, Part II, Ch. 40Against the Errors of the Greeks).

Pope Leo X condemned the following proposition:

“Purgatory cannot be proved from Sacred Scripture which is in the canon” (condemned as being a “disgrace to the Christian religion” and as giving “injury to orthodox faith” in Exsurge Domine).

The Council of Trent held to its existence:

“Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this ecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy Synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught, and every where proclaimed by the faithful of Christ” (Council of Trent: Decree Concerning Purgatory).

The Catechism of Trent interprets our being “instructed by the Holy Ghost… from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers” to mean that the foundation of the doctrine is located in Scripture alone and its confirmation is found in tradition:

“Among [the abodes of hell] is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment, in order to be admitted into their eternal country, into which nothing defiled entereth. The truth of this doctrine, founded, as holy Councils declare,’ on Scripture, and confirmed by Apostolic tradition, demands exposition from the pastor, all the more diligent and frequent, because we live in times when men endure not sound doctrine” (ARTICLE V – He Descended into Hell, The Third Day He Rose Again from the Dead).

From the profession of faith of Pope Pius IV:

“I steadfastly hold that a purgatory exists, and that the souls there detained are aided by the prayers of the faithful…

“This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved, (and) which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold, I … do promise, vow, and swear that I will, with the help of God, most faithfully retain and profess the same to the last breath of life as pure and inviolable” (, taken from Denzinger 998 & 1000Iniunctum Nobis).

The Catechism on professions of faith:

“Through the centuries many professions or symbols of faith have been articulated in response to the needs of the different eras: the creeds of the different apostolic and ancient Churches…; the professions of faith of certain Councils…; or the symbols of certain popes…

“None of the creeds from the different stages in the Church’s life can be considered superseded or irrelevant. They help us today to attain and deepen the faith of all times by means of the different summaries made of it” (, 192-193CCC).
 
The Commentary on the Professio Fidei tells us that “the immediate recompense after death” is a dogma of the faith. It rests this assertion on the teaching of Pope Benedict XII in Benedictus Deus where he defined that

“the souls of all the saints who departed from this world before the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ and also of the holy apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins and other faithful who died after receiving the holy baptism of Christ- provided they were not in need of any purification when they died, or will not be in need of any when they die in the future, or else, if they then needed or will need some purification, after they have been purified after death-and again the souls of children who have been reborn by the same baptism of Christ or will be when baptism is conferred on them, if they die before attaining the use of free will: all these souls, immediately (mox) after death and, in the case of those in need of purification, after the purification mentioned above, since the ascension of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ into heaven, already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment, have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels.”

There was a debate earlier this year between James White and Tim Staples on 1 Corinthians 3. Perhaps reading my responses to this debate will help you:

Every Christian Builds on the Foundation of Jesus Christ
The Effecting Means in Us, Not the Effected Ends in Others
Selfishness and Vainglory Are Sins.
Paul Elsewhere Identifies Such Materials As Sin in Us
More Than the Loss of Reward
Not All Golden, Not All Purged
Different Aspects of Purgatory (Not Essential)
Purging the Inner Man
Founded on Scripture, and Not the Second Coming Part I
Not the Second Coming Part II

You can also check out The Doctrine of Purgatory by St. Francis de Sales (Doctor of the Church):

“We agree that the blood of Our Redeemer is the true purgatory of souls; for in it are cleansed all the souls in the world …] [H]ere we take Purgatory for a place in which after this life the souls which leave this world before they have been perfectly cleansed from the stains which they have contracted since nothing can enter Paradise which is not pure and undefiled-are detained in order to be washed and purified. And if one would know why this place is called simply Purgatory …] it is because in that place nothing takes place but the purgation of the stains which remain at the time of departure out of this world …]; whence the name of Purgatory has been limited to that place in the other world which, properly speaking, is for no purpose but the purification of souls. And agreeing as to the blood of Our Lord, we so fully acknowledge the virtue thereof, that we protest by all our prayers that the purgation of souls, whether in this world or in the other, is made solely by its application:─more jealous of the honour due to this precious medicine than those who so highly value it that they undervalue the using of it. Therefore by Purgatory we understand a place where souls for a time are purged of the spots and imperfections they carry with them from this mortal life.”

I hope this helped! Let me know if you think I can help you any further. I hope you have a blessed day!

Your brother in the LORD,
Pete
 
We in the West are, of course, more familiar with Western thought, but the Light of The East, as it has been referred to for over a thousand years, is a thoroughly orthodox and very beautiful expression of the Christian Faith.

If you are interested in learning more, here is a great exposition of it: east2west.org/
That was a very nice read Ignatius. 👍
 
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