Purgatory help

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I am looking into the possibility of converting to Catholicism and through my readings/reasearch I have came to better understand what Catholics really believe and why they believe it in regards to many of the things I was misinformed of being non-Catholic. One thing that I have not came to peace with yet is the idea of Purgatory. I have not spent enough time on this to say that I reject the idea but it is one of the last few holdups in my mind as I have not yet convinced myself that it is true. Maybe if I hear why from different people soemthign will click for me as it has with some of the other topics I initially found concerning.

So why do Catholics believe in Purgatory. This seems like too big of a deal to be based on “tradition” alone and I would think it should be based on scripture.

I look forward to your feedback!
 
I am looking into the possibility of converting to Catholicism and through my readings/reasearch I have came to better understand what Catholics really believe and why they believe it in regards to many of the things I was misinformed of being non-Catholic. One thing that I have not came to peace with yet is the idea of Purgatory. I have not spent enough time on this to say that I reject the idea but it is one of the last few holdups in my mind as I have not yet convinced myself that it is true. Maybe if I hear why from different people soemthign will click for me as it has with some of the other topics I initially found concerning.

So why do Catholics believe in Purgatory. This seems like too big of a deal to be based on “tradition” alone and I would think it should be based on scripture.

I look forward to your feedback!
I will look up some of the verses to show what I am talking about later as I do not know exactly where they are but I will find them. One thing about Purgatory even some Protestants believe that we will have a time of cleansing before we can enter heaven as nothing unclean can be in heaven so unless you are perfect when you die (do you know anyone who is?) you will most likely need to have a period of cleansing and we call this Purgatory. Purgatory is another way that God shows us his mercy because of this cleansing it allows more people to enter heaven so those of us who are good and truly try to follow Jesus but fall short can still make it into heaven.
 
I am looking into the possibility of converting to Catholicism and through my readings/reasearch I have came to better understand what Catholics really believe and why they believe it in regards to many of the things I was misinformed of being non-Catholic. One thing that I have not came to peace with yet is the idea of Purgatory. I have not spent enough time on this to say that I reject the idea but it is one of the last few holdups in my mind as I have not yet convinced myself that it is true. Maybe if I hear why from different people soemthign will click for me as it has with some of the other topics I initially found concerning.

So why do Catholics believe in Purgatory. This seems like too big of a deal to be based on “tradition” alone and I would think it should be based on scripture.

I look forward to your feedback!
Purgatory exists because even if we die with all our sins forgiven (which is the basic criteria to enter Heaven) - we still have many attachments, imperfections, etc… purgatory helps us to be fully transformed so we can love God with all our hearts for all eternity.

we can see it in the writings of the early Church Fathers:
catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

God bless!
 
Ye must be born again. One can be a new creature, all old things are passed away, and all things become new. If we die without Jesus as our Saviour, we will go to hell. Purgatory was created to ease the minds of parents that had lost loved ones that died without Jesus. Plus it became a prfitable affair too.
Mormons believe in a second chance after death too. It must be the blood of the Lamb that cleanes us. To believe prayers releases someone from purgetory, denies the cleansing power of the blood.
Consider also, God is perfect, Jesus is perfect, no human is sinless. For there is none righteous, no not ONE.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

A twinkling is faster than an unknown period of time. Trust not purgatory to cleanse, butb the blood.
 
Ye must be born again. One can be a new creature, all old things are passed away, and all things become new. If we die without Jesus as our Saviour, we will go to hell. Purgatory was created to ease the minds of parents that had lost loved ones that died without Jesus. Plus it became a prfitable affair too.
Mormons believe in a second chance after death too. It must be the blood of the Lamb that cleanes us. To believe prayers releases someone from purgetory, denies the cleansing power of the blood.
Consider also, God is perfect, Jesus is perfect, no human is sinless. For there is none righteous, no not ONE.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

A twinkling is faster than an unknown period of time. Trust not purgatory to cleanse, butb the blood.
Some true some false. All in all, milquetoast. Move on to real meat friend. Read good histories and good biblical commentaries. Read the Doctors of the Church.

As to the OP, read the two links provided above first. For more depth check the Catholic Encyclopedia.

FSC
 
Ye must be born again. One can be a new creature, all old things are passed away, and all things become new. If we die without Jesus as our Saviour, we will go to hell. Purgatory was created to ease the minds of parents that had lost loved ones that died without Jesus. Plus it became a prfitable affair too.
Mormons believe in a second chance after death too. It must be the blood of the Lamb that cleanes us. To believe prayers releases someone from purgetory, denies the cleansing power of the blood.
Consider also, God is perfect, Jesus is perfect, no human is sinless. For there is none righteous, no not ONE.

.
Wow–did you just link us with Mormons? Well I have Jesus as my saviour and yet I believe in purgatory. It is NOT hell! It was not created to ease the minds of parents or to make money. That is a VERY serious charge! One you would do well to research before you make such a serious charge against the Catholic church.
 
1 Corinthians 15:29: “Otherwise, what will those people do who receive baptism on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people Baptized on their behalf?”
The word “baptize” can refer in this case to other things besides actual water baptism; but the point is that Paul is alluding to, and apparently condoning, some form of penitential act on the part of dead people. The above is a nice verse because you don’t do anything, baptism or otherwise, for dead people in hell, because they are beyond help, and you don’t do it for people in heaven, because they don’t need it.

“May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphours because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus.” 2 Timothy 1:16-18
Important again, because you don’t pray for people in heaven or hell, and most scholars agree that Onesiphours was dead.

My favorite:
1 Corinthians 3:11-15: “For no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

A little background, the prior chapters were talking about those spreading a false gospel, focusing on miracles, etc. Paul was saying that on judgement day, those that changed the gospel would be destroyed by God, in effect, on judgement day. He then goes on in the above verses about believers themselves. The interesting thing is, he is being judged on his works. His works are being judged. Now according to the above verses, Protestants like to paint the picture that the man is already saved, his works are the burning building, and he escaped it, so he personally is fine. That sounds great, and in fact if you read the above verses like that it seems perfectly plausible. But that’s not what the original Greek means, and you are welcome to look it up. Lets start with the underlined words “suffer loss.” In the Greek, the transliterated word is “zemioo.” In the Old Testament in the Septaguint, the word is used in the context of punishment. An example is in Proverbs where a man is punished for a crime. It can mean “affect with damage, to do damge to, to sustain damage, receive injury, to suffer loss.” As you can see, “suffer loss” in this sense is to receive punishment and injury. Interesting. Christian believers, being judged on their works, and if their works are not all up to snuff, they are burned, and even the man himself.

Let’s look at the second underlined phrase “but only.” Protestants look at this verse, and they think “oh well that just means that it’s a metaphor, that because of the grace of Christ we were saved, and if not we would have been burned in hell.” Except that’s not correct, because first off, the works themselves are being judged, and the people Paul is talking about are believers that are saved, so it is not referring to hell. The Greek word for “but only” is the adverb “houto.” And the interesting thing about it is that it means “the same, exactly, follows, same, same manner.” When you look at it in it’s proper context, Paul is saying that he will be saved, the same as through fire. So altogether, a Christian man’s works will be tested by God, and if he has not done good deeds (venial sins), he himself will be punished, and he will be saved the same as through fire. This is almost word for word catholic doctrine on purgatory.
 
The entire context of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 specifies the three destinations which will be the ultimate outcomes of judgement day for each individual. I assume we can all agree that “The Day” refers to judgement, especially since salvation does appear to be an issue, in fact is highlighted in this passage? And also since God will destroy those who destroy His temple, which also has the loss of salvation, i.e, spiritual death in mind?

Keeping that in mind, the works are judged, but the individual himself suffers loss as well. In other contexts this phrase is used in the form of punishent. The phrase “yet as through” is also translated “in the same way” “likewise”, etc. It’s not just the individual’s works, the individual himself will suffer loss as through fire if he hasn’t enough “gems” in the bank.

Those that have maliciously destroyed God’s temple will be destroyed. The context of judgement, the clarity of the Greek, and the fact that Paul is addressing believers and warning of the possibility of their destruction by God on “the day,” combined with varying degrees of works AND the individual suffering loss through fire, all fit in quite nicely with Catholic dogma on this matter.

I add to the fact that God is a* refiner’s fire, a burning love.* I can add a related, non-scriptural nugget that prior to her wedding, a Jewish woman in the time of Christ was given a cleansing bath to purify her before meeting the groom. Interesting, considering all the very strong Jewish marriage imagery used throughout the Scriptures. Is it something I would hang my entire argument on? No, but it’s interesting nonetheless. It lets me see purgatory less as a bunch of proof texts and more as an organic whole demonstrating Christ’s salvific ways. I also find it interesting that the Temple (according to Rabbinic sources) was also seen as a manifestation of the Spiritual life, and how before drawing close to God, one had to purify oneself. Considering that Paul speaks of the Temple and this connection of believers with the Temple, and then you realize that the Temple itself had varying stages of purification and cleansing prior to drawing closer to God, the verse in 3:15 fits in quite well with this very Jewish concept, whereas another view would not fit so well.

You have to be actually pure to enter heaven, not imputed, not covered, not anything but the real deal. Every protestant would seem to inherently understand that he is not perfect like Christ. They seem to instinctively understand that some cleansing is warranted, because they must be perfect. They just really have a problem with their conception of what we believe about Purgatory. Fortunately, according to the Catechism you graciously took the time to read, Purgatory is a dogma, but it is not strenuously defined. Theological speculation during medieval times can be thanked for the idea of a fiery dungeon, but that is not the understanding the Church seems to be moving towards, and I believe the current understanding is more warranted and more biblical. In essence however, if you didn’t die perfect but you’re still in friendship with God, you are going to take that bath before dinner. It’s only right.

Now keep in mind, I am painting protestant belief with a broad brush stroke, so apologies in advance if I have glossed over any denominational differences.

God Bless.
 
Ye must be born again. One can be a new creature, all old things are passed away, and all things become new. If we die without Jesus as our Saviour, we will go to hell. Purgatory was created to ease the minds of parents that had lost loved ones that died without Jesus. Plus it became a prfitable affair too.
Mormons believe in a second chance after death too. It must be the blood of the Lamb that cleanes us. To believe prayers releases someone from purgetory, denies the cleansing power of the blood.
Consider also, God is perfect, Jesus is perfect, no human is sinless. For there is none righteous, no not ONE.
Pure, unadulterated bunk. Proving once again Fulton Sheen’s remark that there are not more than a hundred people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church. I can’t remember the last time I saw so many errors packed into so few sentences.
  1. Purgatory is not a “second chance” at salvation. Those who are in Purgatory are saved. Purgatory is where they who die in the state of grace but without having fully expiated their sins satisfy God’s justice. (Note: on Calvary, Jesus delivered us from the eternal punishment due to our sins; but that does not mean that (a) we do not need to cooperate in our own salvation; or (b) we do not need somehow to make up for having offended God, just as we need to make up for offending our fellow men.)
  2. Purgatory was not “created” by man.
  3. There is no profit in Purgatory. This is a hoary lie. Try coming up with something original.
  4. Prayers are powerful to release souls from Purgatory precisely because of the merits of the Precious Blood.
  5. Jesus is fully God and fully Man.
 
I love your post for the sheer reason that you used “hoary” in a sentence. Kudos to you 👍
 
I’m sending you a link to free downloads from the Biblical Apologetics Society. This is a Catholic Apologetics group and this will link you to the free downloads page where you can find a talk on Purgatory.

biblechristiansociety.com/download
 
1 Corinthians 3:10-17 was the main one I was thinking about so that has been provided already.
As for what asmrbd said he evidently never read the ECF and what the early church believed and by his beliefs he believes that the wicked can enter heaven (if I understand it right) those that say they are cover by the blood are still sinners and wicked people (the Tulip beliefs) and this never changes in their life. So by their beliefs they say that God allows wicked people to enter heaven because they accepted Jesus. I think you can find some verses in the bible that says only the perfect can enter heaven. How do you get to be pure and perfect without a place for those who are saved but not perfect to have their not so good works to be burned up? How wonder is God that He allows us a place to be cleansed so that we can still get to heaven even if we are not perfect saints.
As Catholics we know what the early church believed and they knew there was a cleansing before heaven if someone was not a perfect person or did not die a martyr.
 
Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. That is while we are alive. Notice the many times in the Bible where it says we can be saved if we simply believe on him. 1 Jn 5:13 says we can know we are saved.

He that HAS the Son HAS life, he that HAS NOT the Son HAS NOT life. He that believeth not is damned. (Mark) There is NO condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1)
Whom the Father gives me (Jesus) I will neither be cast out nor can they be removed by anyone.

The promises are numerous and simple. Hold onto them. For they speak of life eternal.
It is appointed unto a man once to die, then the judgment. I have nothing against the CC, I am just using God’s words from the Bible to show how simple the plan of salvation is.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me HAS everlasting life. It is that simple. His will becomes our will.
 
Now that you’re done waxing poetic with little focused argument, I would like to point you directly toward something I have already written. Namely, that God’s love is a burning fire, a refiner’s love.

Arguing against a straw man does you little good, nobody ever said that Purgatory is condemnation. It’s not judgement, and it’s not a second chance. It’s the final step in the process of sanctification. It is the refining of God’s burning love; REFINING the imperfections of concupiscence as we draw ever closer to Him after death.
 
I appreciate this post and am also a believer considering Catholicism for myself. I have learned so much from this site and also from the radio show ‘Catholic Answers Live.’ Even if I never convert I think I will still listen to that show – very informative and non-judgemental!

My question in addition to what the OP has asked is this … one poster stated that:
“You have to be actually pure to enter heaven, not imputed, not covered, not anything but the real deal,”
(Nathan Wagar), and if this is the case, how did the thief get promised paradise by Jesus during the crucifixion? “Today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43) I suppose it’s only speculation, but a thief is not one I would consider “pure”, probably not baptized, though I don’t know anyone can know for sure. And Scripture doesn’t state he went to purgatory first – he was promised Paradise, with Jesus, that very same day. He simply believed Jesus was the promised savior. I’ve heard it argued that the theif’s heart might require no further penance, therefore making purgatory unnecessary, and that’s a hard pill to swallow. If a thief on a cross, dying by crucifixion, didn’t require purgatory, why would anybody?

Thoughts?
 
2 things:
  1. Since Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are outside of time, the good thief could still have gone through Purgatory and been with Jesus in Paradise “today”.
  2. The good thief was being crucified at the time, one of the most excruciatingly painful forms of execution ever devised. A lot of, if not all of, his purification was done on the cross next to Jesus.
 
2 things:
  1. Since Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory are outside of time, the good thief could still have gone through Purgatory and been with Jesus in Paradise “today”.
  2. The good thief was being crucified at the time, one of the most excruciatingly painful forms of execution ever devised. A lot of, if not all of, his purification was done on the cross next to Jesus.
What about baptism?

And are you saying that a painful death = purificiation?

What about those that die peacefully? Are they then not purified in that process? How can you put an absolute on something as individual as what “pain” feels like?
 
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