Purgatory help

[Nathan_Wagar]

Good question my man. This is also often used as a proof text to try to argue against the Catholic concept of baptism, as well, although I will stick to its relevance with purgatory.

Quite simply, the question arises out of a confusion about purgatory. It is not a “holding” place, it is the final steps of sanctification. And let’s take Jesus’ statement that today the thief would be with Him in paradise. Considering we DON’T KNOW how long purgatory lasts, it’s a moot point. People often try to compare an eternal and a temporal realm as though the two correspond exactly, and it just ain’t so. Of course the thief would be with Him that day, because that day they both die. Once they are dead though, who is to say how time passes outside of the temporal realm? Can you see how this reasoning can get sticky quick?

Also keep in mind that Jesus said Paradise, NOT the Beatific Vision. The understanding of the Church is that the OT saints had to be led up to Heaven by Jesus, because even what is referred to as “Abraham’s Bosom” is not the same as being in the presence of the Almighty, and all Christians can agree on this. So here’s the million dollar question: Where does it say the thief didn’t go through purgatory when all the OT saints were lead to heaven? It doesn’t.

Bottom line, if you know you’re not as perfect as Jesus, that needs to get fixed at some point. If you’re saved and still not perfect, it has to happen after death.

 

[asmrbd]

Now that you’re done waxing poetic with little focused argument, I would like to point you directly toward something I have already written. Namely, that God’s love is a burning fire, a refiner’s love.

Arguing against a straw man does you little good, nobody ever said that Purgatory is condemnation. It’s not judgement, and it’s not a second chance. It’s the final step in the process of sanctification. It is the refining of God’s burning love; REFINING the imperfections of concupiscence as we draw ever closer to Him after death.

OK, I can accept what you mean. An intermediate step before heaven. God will have a process to make us immortal. But you can get salvation settled before you die. If you d that, you don’t have to worry about purgatory.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

 

[MariaG]

I appreciate this post and am also a believer considering Catholicism for myself. I have learned so much from this site and also from the radio show ‘Catholic Answers Live.’ Even if I never convert I think I will still listen to that show – very informative and non-judgemental!

My question in addition to what the OP has asked is this … one poster stated that: (Nathan Wagar), and if this is the case, how did the thief get promised paradise by Jesus during the crucifixion? “Today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43) I suppose it’s only speculation, but a thief is not one I would consider “pure”, probably not baptized, though I don’t know anyone can know for sure. And Scripture doesn’t state he went to purgatory first – he was promised Paradise, with Jesus, that very same day. He simply believed Jesus was the promised savior. I’ve heard it argued that the theif’s heart might require no further penance, therefore making purgatory unnecessary, and that’s a hard pill to swallow. If a thief on a cross, dying by crucifixion, didn’t require purgatory, why would anybody?

Thoughts?

Purgatory is popularly thought of and explained as a “place”. However, it is not defined as such in the official teaching of the Catholic Church. I believe it was Pope John Paul II that said purgatory should be thought of as more of a process than a place.

A process that could in fact be instantaneous. (To be absent from the body to be present with the Lord…)

Here is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says

**III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY **
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611​

Purgatory is not a second chance at heaven. When you die you go to heaven or hell. Those who are destined to heaven, recieve their final cleansing in Christ’s blood before they enter. This we name purgatory.

Whether this cleansing is instantaneous or takes “time” is not defined by the Catholic Church. The only thing we know for sure is that nothing unclean shall enter heaven. We won’t be covered in His blood (but still unclean underneath), but cleansed by it. Not just declared clean, but ACTUALLY clean.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[asmrbd]

I appreciate this post and am also a believer considering Catholicism for myself. I have learned so much from this site and also from the radio show ‘Catholic Answers Live.’ Even if I never convert I think I will still listen to that show – very informative and non-judgemental!

My question in addition to what the OP has asked is this … one poster stated that: (Nathan Wagar), and if this is the case, how did the thief get promised paradise by Jesus during the crucifixion? “Today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43) I suppose it’s only speculation, but a thief is not one I would consider “pure”, probably not baptized, though I don’t know anyone can know for sure. And Scripture doesn’t state he went to purgatory first – he was promised Paradise, with Jesus, that very same day. He simply believed Jesus was the promised savior. I’ve heard it argued that the theif’s heart might require no further penance, therefore making purgatory unnecessary, and that’s a hard pill to swallow. If a thief on a cross, dying by crucifixion, didn’t require purgatory, why would anybody?

Thoughts?

He was not baptized either. All he needed was Jesus. We are still commanded to be baptized. But it shows our likeness in death, where our old man dies and we are raised to walk in newness of life. Be careful with the traditions of men as Jesus warned.
Jesus was the last priest we ever needed. (Book of Hebrews)

 

[Marc_Anthony]

What about baptism?

And are you saying that a painful death = purificiation?

What about those that die peacefully? Are they then not purified in that process? How can you put an absolute on something as individual as what “pain” feels like?

What about baptism? The good thief surely underwent what is known as a “baptism of desire”-that is, if he ever learned of baptism, it can be assumed that he would receive it. It is because of this the Church says those enrolled in RCIA would go to Heaven so long as they do not die in a state of mortal sin; even though they’re not baptized yet, they receive a baptism of desire.

No, those who die peacefully have not been purified of their sins…that is, received what can be defined as “punishment” for them. The thief was on the cross to be punished for his sins. This is a form of purification. If one repents of sins while dying in extreme agony, logic would have you assume that he has already suffered for them and no longer needs to after death. I have put an absolute on nothing; I have no idea how God figures out what a proper amount of pain is. I’m merely theologically speculating. Anyway, my other point, that Purgatory, Heaven, and Hell are outside of time and thus the good thief could go through Purgatory and still be with Jesus “today”, also strikes me as a very viable possibility.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

“OK, I can accept what you mean. An intermediate step before heaven. God will have a process to make us immortal. But you can get salvation settled before you die. If you d that, you don’t have to worry about purgatory.”

**RESPONSE: Absolutely, and that is why The Church recognizes that some are saints. The thing to keep in mind is that if we do not respond to God’s grace and become a vessel of holiness in this lifetime, the process must be completed. Punishment/correction can be temporal (as with David) or take place in Purgatory as we draw near to God. Venial sin, indeed any sin, cannot stand in His presence. This is why many protestants betray a lack of understanding of the Catholic position with the comment “why can’t He simply cleanse our sin in His presence.”

The answer is, he DOES, and it’s called PURGATORY. The reason why MORTAL sin cannot stand in His presence is because it is a willful rejection of Him. However our imperfections are indeed refined away as we draw near, hence His comparison to a refiner’s fire. Lest we forget, the seraphims are the burning ones…**

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

“He was not baptized either. All he needed was Jesus. We are still commanded to be baptized. But it shows our likeness in death, where our old man dies and we are raised to walk in newness of life. Be careful with the traditions of men as Jesus warned.
Jesus was the last priest we ever needed. (Book of Hebrews)” **RESPONSE: Are you suggesting that baptism is merely a symbol of the faith that saves? I have a question for you then. When was Paul saved? **

 

[MariaG]

He was not baptized either. All he needed was Jesus. We are still commanded to be baptized. But it shows our likeness in death, where our old man dies and we are raised to walk in newness of life. Be careful with the traditions of men as Jesus warned.
Jesus was the last priest we ever needed. (Book of Hebrews)

Traditions? No. Scripture. New Testament as well as old!

 

[asmrbd]

This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

OK, if they are already “going” to heaven, stopping in purgatory, why would the living atone for the dead? Jesus provided the ONLY attonement. Paul said “now” we have the attonement. This defeats the purpose if the cross.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

You’re absolutely right, it does. If you’re a Protestant. Read Colossians 1:24, then get back to me. Paul makes up what is lacking in the afflictions of the Christ for the sake of his body, the Church. Here’s the thing, my man. There is no death in the body of Christ, the “dead” are alive in Jesus, and so just as it is proper to pray for those enduring temporal trials, it is proper to pray for those that have passed beyond the veil to finish their process of sanctification.

What, perchance, do you make of this interesting little verse?

1 Corinthians 15:29: “Otherwise, what will those people do who recieve baptism on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?”.

Baptism can refer to a penitential act, or to actual baptism (water baptising the dead? Intriguing…) The important thing to note is that Paul is condoning some sort of penitential act on behalf of the DEAD in Christ.

People forget Jesus prayed for a dead man (Lazarus), and He was the one that said God is the God of the living.

And what about Onesiphours in 2 Timothy 1:16-18? Scholars agree the dude is dead, and Paul is asking them to pray for him.

 

[asmrbd]

“He was not baptized either. All he needed was Jesus. We are still commanded to be baptized. But it shows our likeness in death, where our old man dies and we are raised to walk in newness of life. Be careful with the traditions of men as Jesus warned.
Jesus was the last priest we ever needed. (Book of Hebrews)” **RESPONSE: Are you suggesting that baptism is merely a symbol of the faith that saves? I have a question for you then. When was Paul saved? **

Hi Nathan, I just see the purification before we die. And we assume the immortal after death. How that happens is God;s part, but it will be in the twinkling of an eye.

As for baptism, a person hears, believes and the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in them.
That is the Spirit baptism. Loooking at Acts, the Holy Spirit came sometimes before and sometimes during baptism. I hold that one is saved, by belief before baptism. Granted, it is called the baptism for the remission of sins.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. ( And 1Pt 3:21)

This symbolizes death and our new birth. Ye must be born again.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

So answer the question. When was Paul saved?

 

[asmrbd]

You’re absolutely right, it does. If you’re a Protestant. Read Colossians 1:24, then get back to me. Paul makes up what is lacking in the afflictions of the Christ for the sake of his body, the Church. Here’s the thing, my man. There is no death in the body of Christ, the “dead” are alive in Jesus, and so just as it is proper to pray for those enduring temporal trials, it is proper to pray for those that have passed beyond the veil to finish their process of sanctification.

What, perchance, do you make of this interesting little verse?

1 Corinthians 15:29: “Otherwise, what will those people do who recieve baptism on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?”.

Baptism can refer to a penitential act, or to actual baptism (water baptising the dead? Intriguing…) The important thing to note is that Paul is condoning some sort of penitential act on behalf of the DEAD in Christ.

People forget Jesus prayed for a dead man (Lazarus), and He was the one that said God is the God of the living.

And what about Onesiphours in 2 Timothy 1:16-18? Scholars agree the dude is dead, and Paul is asking them to pray for him.

It said the house of Onesiphours. That’s all I had seen there for now. As for Paul, the suffering was for the advancement of the church. If we are in his will, we will suffer burdens.

1 Cor 15:29 says, if it was not believed they would be raised again (resurrection), why baptize them? It would be a vain thing. This is th eonly reference to baptism of the dead. Mormons use this verse to baptize the dead, especially Jews into their church.
It was looking at it being a frivolous, useless act.

I agree, the dead are just dead physically, but alive somewhere else. And there are the ones dead in their sins, which are the Spiritually dead.

Where did Jesus pray for Lazarus? The sickness was not unto death, but he was “dead.”

Protestants are Bible only, so if we do not see it in the early church we avoid it. But we did accept pianos.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Actually scholars are baffled by the passage in Corinthians, and valid lines of interpretation lend credence to both my view and yours, however the household comment has little to do with the fact that most scholars agree the man Paul is asking the people to pray for was dead.

I’d be careful with how you describe early Church, since there are several quotes about purgatory I’d be happy to supply that were around before the compilation of the Bible, and indeed were held by compilers of said Bible. Prayers for the dead are also found quite early, again, before the compilation of the Bible.

That being said, and I know this is a bit off the strict topic of purgatory, but I am curious, when was Paul saved?

 

[asmrbd]

So answer the question. When was Paul saved?

Paul had an abrupt awakening with Christ.

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

At this point, he saw the light. He called Jesus Lord. Once he understands who Jesus is, he is saved. No doubt, the greatest Apostle who gave us the bulk of God’s Word was saved. What an example. Jesus Christ himself revealed himself to Paul.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Indeed, I agree, but *at what precise moment *was Paul saved? It HAS to be a moment, because you believe in imputed righteousness. So let me restate this, so I know exactly what you believe:

1. At what precise moment was Paul saved?
2. Were his sins forgiven upon being saved?

 

[asmrbd]

Indeed, I agree, but *at what precise moment *was Paul saved? It HAS to be a moment, because you believe in imputed righteousness.

Fundamentally, when he believed that Jesus was the Son of God, and he started serving him, he was saved.

Acts 9:17, no doubt, he believed, was baptized in the Holy Spirit, then by water.
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. Heb 10:10-18

Nathan, one thing we can agree on, you and I have a wonderful Saviour.

 

[asmrbd]

Saved means saved from sin, saved from hell.
The wages of sin is death. We have a pardon we can accept.
The moment the Holy Spirit fills us, we are alive.

Hear-Belief-Holy Spirit-saved. It is a simple process.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Acts 9:17-19:17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

Acts 22:12-16:“A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.
14“Then he said: ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

The above make it clear that Saul’s sins were forgiven at the moment of baptism, not the moment of belief. He did not receive the Holy Spirit until he was baptized, which just so happens to be when his sins were forgiven. This is what infusion means. If your belief is true, Paul would have been saved long before, because he had direct revelation from Jesus, and thus his belief would have saved him already.

 

[asmrbd]

Nathan,

No, he received sight, was filled with the Holy Spirit then went to the river. To say he was filled with the Holy Spirit as a believer and not saved yet, means we are saved by the water? No, saved by the blood. Besides, saving is God’s function, let’s just make sure we do our part and believe.

The revelation of Jesus to Paul was mentioned in Gal 1:11-12

  Again, the simplicity of the words, the Bible says, believe that he is the Son of God, and thou shalt be saved.  I firmly believe that it is a done deal when the Holy Spirit enters the new believer.

The Holy Spirit is our down payment. An earnest, Eph 1:11-14.

I must retire, good night.

John