Purgatory help

[Nathan_Wagar]

Very nice, flowery language, but you completely ignored what I posted because of your theology. Compare the two passages. It’s right in front of you. I won’t respond to anything else you say until you effectively take what I just wrote seriously, instead of dismissing it with an eisegetical wave of the hand. Paul’s sins were not forgiven upon belief. Period. That isn’t even up for debate.

You defended your position not be appealing to the Scripture, ironically, but by appealing to your own belief. That’s ridiculous. If Paul was saved by belief, then why weren’t his sins forgiven until the baptism per Acts 22:16? I’m not even going to get into a breakdown of John 3:5 or Ephesians 4:1 or the host of other scriptures on salvific baptism, or even what your concept of “belief” is and how I can show that isn’t Biblical either. Let’s stick with these two passages about Paul.

 

[asmrbd]

I’ll review and get back with you.

 

[VociMike]

I am looking into the possibility of converting to Catholicism and through my readings/reasearch I have came to better understand what Catholics really believe and why they believe it in regards to many of the things I was misinformed of being non-Catholic. One thing that I have not came to peace with yet is the idea of Purgatory. I have not spent enough time on this to say that I reject the idea but it is one of the last few holdups in my mind as I have not yet convinced myself that it is true. Maybe if I hear why from different people soemthign will click for me as it has with some of the other topics I initially found concerning.

So why do Catholics believe in Purgatory. This seems like too big of a deal to be based on “tradition” alone and I would think it should be based on scripture.

Ah, but you almost certainly believe in purgatory, at least in concept. The easiest way to demonstrate this is via three simple questions:

1. Are you now completely free from sin and from all attachment to sin?
2. In heaven will you be completely free from sin and from all attachment to sin?
3. What happens between #1 and #2?

And as far as the notion of purgatory involving pain and suffering, isn’t it often painful, difficult to give up sin and attachment to sin? If it wasn’t painful, wasn’t difficult, we’d all be completely without sin in this world, but you know that isn’t true, not by a long shot. So giving up our sin and attachment to sin upon death may be painful, but God will give us the strength to do it.

Purgatory is not a bad thing, it is God’s final mercy, his final act of cleansing those whose small and weak faith has been enough that they have been saved.

 

[Tomb54]

I appreciate this post and am also a believer considering Catholicism for myself. I have learned so much from this site and also from the radio show ‘Catholic Answers Live.’ Even if I never convert I think I will still listen to that show – very informative and non-judgemental!

My question in addition to what the OP has asked is this … one poster stated that: (Nathan Wagar), and if this is the case, how did the thief get promised paradise by Jesus during the crucifixion? “Today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43) I suppose it’s only speculation, but a thief is not one I would consider “pure”, probably not baptized, though I don’t know anyone can know for sure. And Scripture doesn’t state he went to purgatory first – he was promised Paradise, with Jesus, that very same day. He simply believed Jesus was the promised savior. I’ve heard it argued that the theif’s heart might require no further penance, therefore making purgatory unnecessary, and that’s a hard pill to swallow. If a thief on a cross, dying by crucifixion, didn’t require purgatory, why would anybody?

Thoughts?

when the gospel were written in Aramaic (sp?) they did not use comas so it depends on how you separate it. It could have been
43And He said to him, “Truly I say to **you, today **you shall be with Me in Paradise.” or

43And He said to him, “Truly I say to you **today, you **shall be with Me in Paradise.”

See the difference in meaning
Also stated is he will be in Paradise. So I must ask to we really know what paradise is and is it the same as heaven. Not saying either way here but I have heard some theories

The CC teaches baptism by desire when being baptize by water is impossible and I think while hanging on a cross classifies as impossible. And if this was the case then yes he could go directly to heaven as the CC also teaches.

 

[asmrbd]

Note in the entire Book of John, that repentance is not mentioned in the formula to be saved.

I am looking at the point of saved and you are looking at the point of remission of sins at baptism.

I can only use the exact words of the Bible, just believe first and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit followed by water baptism.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

These are a few of the promises, just believe and you will be saved. Granted though, remission of sins and repentenance are elements of believe.

 

[Tomb54]

Nathan,

No, he received sight, was filled with the Holy Spirit then went to the river. To say he was filled with the Holy Spirit as a believer and not saved yet, means we are saved by the water? No, saved by the blood. Besides, saving is God’s function, let’s just make sure we do our part and believe.

The revelation of Jesus to Paul was mentioned in Gal 1:11-12

  Again, the simplicity of the words, the Bible says, believe that he is the Son of God, and thou shalt be saved.  I firmly believe that it is a done deal when the Holy Spirit enters the new believer.

The Holy Spirit is our down payment. An earnest, Eph 1:11-14.

I must retire, good night.

John

Yes the simplicity of the words but sometimes even though they are simple you want to make it fit your beliefs. This seem the case in John 6 were it says truly, truly just like the verse below on the cross one you want to take literately and the other you do not want to. Again Protestant pick and choose cafeteria Christans just like cafeteria catholics.

43And He said to him, “Truly I say to you today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

mmm

 

[asmrbd]

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

The Eunuch
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Jailor
Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Act 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Not to down play baptism, but all these verses say believe and you shall be saved.
I hold fast to these promises and words of God.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

You are beating around the bush. You are, quite simply, avoiding the point. What is salvation if not salvation from sin? The moment of salvation is PRECISELY the point. Either righteousness is IMPUTED (one moment) or it’s a PROCESS. Either you are implying Paul can be saved and NOT have his sins forgiven, or he was SAVED at the moment of water BAPTISM and NOT belief (as you define it). I’m not going to let you wiggle out of this by quoting other Scripture, because I’ll do the same back to you. It’s all well and good not to deny the importance of baptism, but what good is salvation upon YOUR DEFINITION of belief (mental assent) if you don’t get your sins forgiven until baptism? This is why I won’t go anywhere until you deal with the text. I love how I posted TWO passages describing the EXACT same event, but you only choose one. The problem is, the second passage clarifies, and you are not the first to try to pull this tactic.

When you said you’d get back to me, I figured you were being straightforward to my request about discussing these two passages, not trying to find other verses out of context, because believe me I can go there too. I want a clear cut answer, from your theology, explaining what the deelio is here.

 

[asmrbd]

Tomb54

I believe you are refering to eating of flesh and drinking of the blood. Even with transsubstantiation, it would be a function of God, our part is to partake. We see it as
a spiritual connection, not a physical one.

We do it in remembrance of him. We do eat the bread and drink.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

6:47-48 Believe = eternal life / and the bread
6:53-54 Eat and drink / Eternal life

We won’t resolve this, so I’ll stop here.

 

[Tomb54]

Note in the entire Book of John, that repentance is not mentioned in the formula to be saved.

I am looking at the point of saved and you are looking at the point of remission of sins at baptism.

I can only use the exact words of the Bible, just believe first and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit followed by water baptism.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

These are a few of the promises, just believe and you will be saved. Granted though, remission of sins and repentenance are elements of believe.

No actually I was not looking at the remission of sins I was looking at how you pick and choose what you want to believe. You say he says truly, truly and you take and say it mean literately then He says the same thing 3X at one time you you say that was all symbolic. But since it is off topic I did not want to go that route completely so I was only showing how you make it fit your beliefs but it was not what the early church believed . There is more than enough proof what the early church believed that helps clarify what the Apostles taught and thus the bible teaches.

 

[Tomb54]

Tomb54

I believe you are refering to eating of flesh and drinking of the blood. Even with transsubstantiation, it would be a function of God, our part is to partake. We see it as
a spiritual connection, not a physical one.

We do it in remembrance of him. We do eat the bread and drink.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh (yours)profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. In the whole course He says My Body My Blody I am the Lamb but here He says the spirit gives live and the flesh profiteth nothing which means your spirit is where you get eternal life and your flesh means nothing Believe = truly presence and life within

6:47-48 Believe = eternal life / and the bread
6:53-54 Eat and drink / Eternal life

We won’t resolve this, so I’ll stop here.

 

[asmrbd]

ok, Acts 9 says Paul would receive the Holy Spirit and then be baptized. It does not exactly specify when the Holy Spirit came upon him, possibly when the scales fell off.

Acts 22 Does not refer to when he received the Holy Spirit. But shows remission of sins at baptism, while “calling upon the name of the Lord.” The calling upon thr name, meets the criteria in all the other verses I had mentioned before.

There was one case where the Holy Spirit fell upon the people before baptism,
Acts 10:44-48.

I hold fast the word of God as promises. If they say believe = saved, that is final. God and Jesus said it, and that settles it. How and when is God’s part. Can one be saved at baptism, absolutley. It is not a process, but a promise if we believe on him.

Again, hear - believe = saved - Holy Spirit and baptism.
You are saying… hear - believe - Holy Spirit/baptism = saved.

 

[asmrbd]

Tomb54:
I agree with your insertion of “your.”

The term “remembrance” does not fit eating and drinking the real thing. It infers a memorial. I have no problem with eating and drinking such if that is the case. But we still partake and remember him for what he did on the cross.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I will deal with your fallacious definition of the Jewish concept of “belief” later. First thing is first.

You already have to alter what you believe. Paul already believed Jesus, otherwise the revelation wasn’t enough, and apparently Paul had to wait until the moment he was baptized by water to have his sins forgiven. You want to, again, wave your hand and state that neither passage says when the Holy Spirit came upon Paul. Well let’s get really specific, because this is pretty simple. Either A: The Holy Spirit came on Paul before baptism and somehow his sins weren’t forgiven, in which case you have a blasphemous belief, or B: The Holy Spirit came upon Paul and DID forgive his sins, in which case it happened at water baptism, per 22:16.

And lets say you ARE right, even though you can’t prove it apparently. Let’s say it happened when the scales fell off (even though I have shown it was at baptism). You are already tweaking your position, because if you remember, you were going under the idea that Paul was saved upon receiving his vision. So apparently, there is a…shall we say…“gap” after the initial belief and when he is actually saved, when Ananias had to TELL him. So then I can logically ask, how do you know you are saved? Your position, besides being potentially blasphemous and defying logic, brings along all kinds of other unpleasant implications. Take these two passages for what they say.

 

[asmrbd]

I will deal with your fallacious definition of the Jewish concept of “belief” later. First thing is first.

You already have to alter what you believe. Paul already believed Jesus, otherwise the revelation wasn’t enough, and apparently Paul had to wait until the moment he was baptized by water to have his sins forgiven.

I am only using the words of Jesus, believe and you shall be saved. Yes, I mentioned that Paul referred to Jesus as Lord, strongly inferring he knew who he was.

Yes, a pssible gap. But from the time a person/Paul believes and the Holy Spirit in dwells is not my call. Plus I will staunchly say, that the Holy Spirit’s indwelling seals the salvation. and that is before baptism.

I am saved because I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and all those words spoken by Christ and others state the promise. I am washed in the blood of the Lamb. Only by his Grace am I saved. I do not deserve such grace, I deserve hell. But God so loved you and I, he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVES on him shall have eternal life. I believe and I have eternal life. All praise for the Father loving us.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Actually my friend, here’s another error on your part. In the Greek, “Calling on” is not a present participle, but is an aorist (point in time) participle also translated “having called on” or “since you called upon.” This means “having previously called on the name of the Lord.”

So he ALREADY called on the name of the Lord, but his sins were not forgiven, until baptism. I can discuss other passages about the Holy Spirit, baptism, the relationship between the two, but here’s the main point. From these two passages, it’s clear when salvation happened, regardless of how firmly you “believe” something. Believe that the Holy Spirit seals the deal firmly before baptism all you want. That means the Holy Spirit doesn’t forgive sins, because that hasn’t happened yet in the passage. You are so willing to blindly hold onto what you were taught by a shismatic protestant sect, that you are stating blasphemy. Quite simply, you are wrong.

By your definition of belief, which you have admitted to, there can be a “gap.” So the logical implication is, you don’t really know when you are saved. And if you don’t know when you are saved, the next logical conclusion is you don’t even know IF you are saved.

Another point for you to chew on, is that I agree completely that belief is what saves us. So does the Catholic Church. But based on these two passages, now you need to do some deep thinking about what “belief” actually means.

 

[asmrbd]

I agree, in that it all comes together as one thing. Even though I can find numerous verses
about believe = saved, it still has components of repentence, a changed heart, in dwelling of the Holy Ghost and baptism. All will occur anyway. The sequence and timing is God’s.

The complete change, or event is called being born again, where we come to know him, surrender to his will, turn from our sins and we become a new creature. And praise God for that!!! Jesus told Nicodemus Ye must be born again. This is when we throw off the old man, and are washed in the blood. We are changed from pigs in mud to sheep.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Yes, except you don’t know when you are washed in that blood. We are buried with the Christ in His death through baptism, as Saint Paul clearly says; nobody rubs blood on your forehead. Here’s the massive difference between your corrupt Holy-Spirit-that-doesn’t forgive-sins theology and mine. We CAN know when we are saved. When asked, Peter gives a definitive answer: repent, and be baptized. Repentance doesn’t mean salvation, repentance is a turning away from something. Baptism is a turning INTO something.

 

[asmrbd]

Yes, accept you don’t know when you are washed in that blood. We are buried with the Christ in His death through baptism, as Saint Paul clearly says; nobody rubs blood on your forehead. Here’s the massive difference between your corrupt Holy-Spirit-that-doesn’t forgive-sins theology and mine. We CAN know when we are saved. When asked, Peter gives a definitive answer: repent, and be baptized.

    I agree, the "when" we leave up to God. Primariliy we hang onto th epromises.   During baptism?   That is fine with me.    I do not deny, it is the baptism is called the baptism for the remission of sins.  But we hold the Spirit baptism as being higher and more important, but the water baptism is still done and commanded.   

    I wish millions of CC members would push this the way you did.   Because there is great  confusion on this point in all churches.   Christianity is failing to get this good news out there.