Purgatory help

[Nathan_Wagar]

True, but here’s the issue. The apostles were commanded to baptize. Peter apparently believed it was a salvific baptism, and the Acts passages clarify this. If the baptism of the Holy Spirit does not come with baptism, this apparently not only contradicts the understanding the apostles have of it, it’s impossible, since the apostles cannot bestow a baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is not ONE case of people being saved aside from baptism unless God directly intervened. And yet, the Holy Spirit comes with baptism, by human means. This fits in fine with the Catholic theology of God being able to work outside His sacraments, problem is, it leaves your theology in a state of confusion. God Bless.

 

[asmrbd]

As I showed before with all those verses, belief saves. I agree forgiveness of sins must be imparted. Note, we are saved from our sins. Saved from its bondage.

The thief on the cross believed and was not baptized.

And, what if a person is going to their baptism and die in a car wreck. In my verses, they are already promised salvation. But without remission of sins by baptism, are they still going to hell? A believer going to hell? If bapptism keeps us from heaven, then we are saved by the water, not blood. That is works and that is why the Holy Ghost baptism is more important. It starts the born again process.

And yes, it is a tough thought as to why all that happens before baptism (by submersion everytime).

For while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Peradvaneture he would die for me, no, but he did.

 

[asmrbd]

And God Bless you too Nathan. May God help you to get the good news out there.
We both go from point A to Z, regardless. Let God do his part, and may we be faithful in our part.

Good Night,
John

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Strawmen about works won’t help you here, or we can start another thread about Romans and James. We can also discuss baptism by immersion if you wish, since 3,000 people were baptized without enough water for immersion, so your knowledge of the Holy Land and the Middle East in general is suspect at best.

To answer your other arguments, God can act outside of His sacraments, and you have yet to refute the point made above, which is that the baptism administered by MAN is salvific. If you say otherwise, you are arguing with what Saint Pater thought about the baptism he was administering: “this baptism now saves you.” He can’t mean the Holy Spirit, or he’d have to read minds to determine the level of the belief. The only salvific baptism, then, can be the one a man can administer to another: water. You have not even addressed the passages in Acts, you continue to state that your belief is true because you believe it, regardless of what the text says, or 2000 years of Christians before you. That’s not the good news, that’s a schismatic heresy that promotes disunity among brethren in Jesus. This discussion cannot go much further if you cannot even argue with the Bible, instead of your pastor’s opinion about the Bible.

You insist that Paul was saved prior to baptism, and yet he needed his sins washed away after being saved. Why? Because it can’t be any other way. Got it. Carry on. You believe in a Holy Spirit who saves but doesn’t wash away sin, I’ll believe as the eternal Church has always taught.

 

[jjolm]

Yes, except you don’t know when you are washed in that blood. We are buried with the Christ in His death through baptism, as Saint Paul clearly says; nobody rubs blood on your forehead. Here’s the massive difference between your corrupt Holy-Spirit-that-doesn’t forgive-sins theology and mine. We CAN know when we are saved. When asked, Peter gives a definitive answer: repent, and be baptized. Repentance doesn’t mean salvation, repentance is a turning away from something. Baptism is a turning INTO something.

Repent, and be baptized.

How do babies repent? And if that’s not actually required before baptism, why is it written that way? And how is that not “tweaking” to make it fit what you believe?

You are very well versed in defending your faith, and pointing out all of the “tweaking” of others’ faiths and beliefs. Yet you fail to recognize how those of us outside of the Catholic church feel the same way about you. And not out of the desire for debate. But the search for the Truth.

And in that search for Truth, some things have to be absolute. We sin. We have a perfect God, who cannot be in the presence of sin. We have a Savior. His name is Jesus Christ.

But a lot in between there gets mixed up. It isn’t cut and dry. Take for example the thief which I brought up earlier. The response I got was:

What about baptism? The good thief surely underwent what is known as a “baptism of desire”-that is, if he ever learned of baptism, it can be assumed that he would receive it. It is because of this the Church says those enrolled in RCIA would go to Heaven so long as they do not die in a state of mortal sin; even though they’re not baptized yet, they receive a baptism of desire.

How can we know the good thief “surely” underwent a baptism of desire? How is that not again tweaking to fit your beliefs? You would hope that given the chance he would get baptized, but you cannot say that for certain. And as for what “paradise” really means – that’s splitting hairs. All I know is Jesus said the thief would be with Him, with Jesus. And that’s all that matters.

He wasn’t baptized. (And you can’t prove that he ever had the desire to be.) He was a believer in Jesus. And Jesus said he would be with Him.

(Whether or not he went through Purgatory suddenly does not seem as important to me anymore). At the beginning of this thread I know Nathan brought up how the thief was typically an argument against baptism, but I wasn’t familiar with it. Now my wheels are turning. Maybe somebody can direct me towards material about it?

 

[asmrbd]

Thanks for the reply JJOLM,

To summarize, a person goes from lost to saved. There are intermediate points in between. 

To recap,

LOST hearing, believing, repentance, crying out, Spirit baptism, water baptism SAVED
Whatever the sequence, the most important thing is to get saved. God executes some of those steps. And thank God he does.

People overlook the saved by faith verses, and they are numerous. That said, baptism is still being done and important.

I have a Certificate of Baptism from a CC church, from when I was a baby.  It has no value, and if I had never known it happened it would not matter.     

Nathan has a good understanding of being saved.  Better than many Protestants. I wish more would defend this area.  "Saved: and born again in nit understood by many in the CC.   I must move on to whiter fields, God bless all......

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

jjolm,

Faith is needed for the efficacy of a Sacrament, that’s why belief is yes, necessary. Jesus said not to hinder the little children for the kingdom of God belongs to those such as these(in Luke the Greek word clarifies that they are infants), and then he lays hands on them. The parents in this passage believe, and bring their children to Jesus, and their faith suffices for their children. The healing of the centurion’s servant or the woman’s demon-possessed child are more examples of this. Jewish circumcision is what made children a part of the Old covenant, and they were not partakers in the blessings of that covenant until they were circumcised. The parents faith, obviously, stood for their children in this case, and Paul already has said that baptism corresponds to this. Remember how I said repentance is a turning away from and baptism is a turning into? Babies have nothing to repent. The faith of their parents is what gets them baptized and "turning into’ the Christ.

Splitting hairs? No. There is right as the Church has chosen to define through 2000 years of history, and there is wrong. You were refuted, so now you resort to “hair-splitting” arguments. What did you expect on a Catholic Apologetics forum? Easy targets? As for the thief, let’s talk about that if you wish. It boils down to this: can God act outside of His own Sacraments? Yes he most assuredly can. He can come down Himself and save whom He chooses in the Old; Job is not an Israelite, for instance, and the NT tell us that people are judged according to what they know. However, in the OT becoming a cicumcised Jew was the normal means. Since baptism corresponds to this, it is quite safe to say that baptism is the normal means, but God can act outside of it according to His own good pleasure. This doesn’t mean you can read the mind of God and assume you are saved. If Paul had done so, apparently he would have been wrong. This points even MORE clearly to the necessity of a Church, inseparable to the Body of Christ, so that we may KNOW we are saved, as protestants are so fond of pointing out. This doesn’t mean we can’t fall from the faith, however.

Bottom line, God can save outside His sacraments, but you, my friend, are not God, and so you must go through the only means given man for Salvation: Repentance and baptism. Let’s not even try with the false dichotomies on faith. Jesus and James equated faith with obedience repeatedly, Paul wasn’t saved until baptism, and the people asked Peter “what must we DO to be saved.” Is it a work? Of course. A work through Grace, so that the Father views our works as the good works of His child who is struggling to please Him, and not as the Law demands, according to which we will always fall short.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I know you protestants don’t always value your Christian history after the Bible was written, but let’s look at what the early Christians thought about baptism before the Bible was compiled, if Bibilical arguments alone are lost on you. This is just for kicks, I’m more than content to argue with what you accept, as Jesus argued with the Sadduccees using only Torah.

Justin Martyr: As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father… and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven” (First Apology 61 A.D. 151]).

Tertullian: [N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, “Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life” (On Baptism 12:1 A.D. 203]).

Hippolytus: Where there is no scarcity of water the stream shall flow through the baptismal font or pour into it from above; but if water is scarce, whether on a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available. Let them remove their clothing. Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 A.D.215]).

In Chapter 7 of the Didache, we read, “Concerning baptism, baptize in this manner: Having said all these things beforehand, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living water [that is, in running water, as in a river]. If there is no living water, baptize in other water; and, if you are not able to use cold water, use warm. If you have neither, pour water three times upon the head in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
These instructions, representing an established custom four decades after the death and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, were authored while some of the apostles were still living. It is around the same time that Revelation was written.

Hippolytus of Rome said, “If water is scarce, whether as a constant condition or on occasion, then use whatever water is available” (The Apostolic Tradition, 21 A.D. 215]).

Pope Cornelius I wrote that as Novatian was about to die, “he received baptism in the bed where he lay, by pouring” (Letter to Fabius of Antioch A.D. 251]; cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:4311).

Cyprian advised that no one should be “disturbed because the sick are poured upon or sprinkled when they receive the Lord’s grace” (Letter to a Certain Magnus 69:12 [A.D. **255]).

Food for thought…

 

[PJM]

=newbie:I am looking into the possibility of converting to Catholicism and through my readings/reasearch I have came to better understand what Catholics really believe and why they believe it in regards to many of the things I was misinformed of being non-Catholic. One thing that I have not came to peace with yet is the idea of Purgatory. I have not spent enough time on this to say that I reject the idea but it is one of the last few holdups in my mind as I have not yet convinced myself that it is true. Maybe if I hear why from different people soemthign will click for me as it has with some of the other topics I initially found concerning.

So why do Catholics believe in Purgatory. This seems like too big of a deal to be based on “tradition” alone and I would think it should be based on scripture.

I look forward to your feedback!

***It has to do with, WHO Created us, WHY He Created us and HOW He Created us.

You seem “OK” with the “Who, so I’ll proceed to the HOw and thn then the WHY.”

Accidents, coincedience, luck simply do not exit. God is in charge and Divine Providence either causes [good things] or permits [not “good” things"] to take place. Every single person we meet is placed in our lives with at least the potential to lead us to God.

The Universe consist of BILLIONS of Planets and stars, BUT only ONE;** earth,*** can sustain life.

Of the hundreds of thousands of living things on earth; only humanity is both a physical and a Spiritual “thing.”

THE “HOW”: Only humanity is gifted by God with a mind, intellct, freewill and a soul. WHY? **

WHY WERE WE CREATED

Rom.14: 11 “for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall give praise to God.”

Gen. 1: 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

Isaiah. 43: 7 every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made."

Isaiah 21 “the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.

*** THE WHY: As shown here the precise reason we were created with Spiritual Gifts that mimic God, but our are not perfected as His are; is to enable humanity to Know, Love, Serve God in this life, so we can join Him in heave.

Minds, intellects, freewills can be shown to exist, BUT NOT quantified. Describe for us “your mind” [not brain; mind]. How large, what is its shape, what color is it? We can’t because they are Spiritual Things, which have to come from another “Spiritual Thing.”

---

What is necessary for humanity to get into heaven? First we must die without unconfessed, unforgive Mortal sins on our souls. [1 Jn.1: 8-10; 1 Jn.5:16-17, and John 20:19-23]. So what else is necessary?

Because God is PERFECTe permits no one unperfected into His Divine Presence.

Rev.21: 27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Matt.5: 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

2Cor.6: 17 Therefore come out from them, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch nothing unclean; then I will welcome you,

1Thes.4: 7 For God has not called us for uncleanness, but in holiness.

1 Peter 1: 15 -16 but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

As I explained in my PM to you; space limitations do not permit extensive discussions necessary for profound topics.

Even Confessed and forgiven sins have a “lingering effect” which must be repayed. We must be made perfect before granted access to heaven. That is the role of Purgatory: our purification. Purification is possible before we die, but not everyone takes advantage of it.

Heb.12: 23 “and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits [SOULS] of just men made perfect”

**1 Cor. 3: 13 **“each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, [Purgatory] though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

**Mt. 5: 26 **truly, " I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny". [UNTIL YOU HAVE BEEN PERFECTED!]

God bless,
Pat
PJM

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

People overlook the saved by faith verses, and they are numerous. That said, baptism is still being done and important.

I have a Certificate of Baptism from a CC church, from when I was a baby.  It has no value, and if I had never known it happened it would not matter.

…

Interesting…I have a Certificate of Baptism from a Protestant church…and it has no value to me… I found faith without works was dead to me…I took my faith for granted…after all…I was saved…so I didn’t need to do anything more…

I’m much more alive spiritually by constantly examining myself…now works WITHOUT faith is dead…but faith with works exihibiting that faith…there is perfect peace

 

[jjolm]

Faith is needed for the efficacy of a Sacrament, that’s why belief is yes, necessary. Jesus said not to hinder the little children for the kingdom of God belongs to those such as these(in Luke the Greek word clarifies that they are infants), and then he lays hands on them.

However, baptism was around when Jesus was. So why didn’t he baptize them? Why just lay hands on them? Especially if it holds the importance you say it does?

Splitting hairs? No. There is right as the Church has chosen to define through 2000 years of history, and there is wrong. You were refuted, so now you resort to “hair-splitting” arguments. What did you expect on a Catholic Apologetics forum? Easy targets?

Ok, now you are just getting rude. Lovely. You make it sound like coming here, posting here, is some game to me. Like I get a high off of debating you. How about the truth? I found ‘Catholic Answers Live’ on the radio and it is bringing up QUESTIONS for me - hard ones that I am not going to shy away from. That I am going to seek out. And I am seeking answers. And you are honestly one of the reasons I continue to not join your church.

The splitting hairs was about what Paradise meant - and correct me if I’m wrong - the Catholic church doesn’t have a “set” answer on this, right?

As for the thief, let’s talk about that if you wish. It boils down to this: can God act outside of His own Sacraments? Yes he most assuredly can. He can come down Himself and save whom He chooses in the Old; Job is not an Israelite, for instance, and the NT tell us that people are judged according to what they know. However, in the OT becoming a cicumcised Jew was the normal means. Since baptism corresponds to this, it is quite safe to say that baptism is the normal means, but God can act outside of it according to His own good pleasure. This doesn’t mean you can read the mind of God and assume you are saved.

You’re telling me I can’t assume I am saved. But that God can choose to save outside of His Sacraments. But you can tell people they aren’t saved because they weren’t baptized. Can you not see how this is difficult to believe for me? And please, don’t be rude back like you have been. It’s just an honest question.

I’m not even going to respond to your last post. After the “you Protestants” and “Biblical arguments are lost on you” phrases, I can see you are too emotionally invested in this to be able to contribute postively anymore. I love people who are passionate, especially when they know what they’re talking about. You do. But just like so many in politics, or religion, when your passion overshadows your ability to actually educate people, you are doing a disservice to your cause. I can’t learn from somebody I don’t respect.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

“And you are honestly one of the reasons I continue to not join your church.” **Response: Ironice you should mention that, because I was thinking last night and came to the conclusion my tone is too harsh, and may appear condescending, and for that I apologize and sincerely ask your forgiveness. However, I would ask you to prayerfully make certain that your reasons are not based on my actions or the actions of others. The sheep and the goats make up the Body of Christ, and if I am a goat, do not let it deter you from the truth.

Your question about Jesus is valid. However, considering that Jesus is God, he may act as he sees fit. This points right back to my original assertion that God may act outside of His sacraments. What it does not change though, is that baptism is the means Jesus gave US to be saved. This would not make any sense if you view the Church as the invisible Body of Christ, and so because of a differing theological construct, it often makes little sense to Protestants. Within the context though, of Christ and his visible body being one, as a Catholic sees it, you cannot knowingly come to Jesus apart from His Church, and so you must be baptized.

Peter said “this baptism now saves you.” He is referring to the baptism that he himself is bestowing. The apostles, as the fledging Church, cannot “bestow” the initial, salvific “baptism of the Holy Spirit,” unless it is through physical means, because this is the nature of being human. One cannot know another man’s thoughts and impart the Holy Spirit, all we can do is see that another man believes, call on the name in baptism, and rely on the promise that the Holy Spirit comes with the water and makes it efficacious. This promise is based on far more than the passages I have already mentioned, I was harping on Acts because it points out the initial fundamental flaw. This may seem like hair-splitting, but the nature of baptism is extremely serious, if indeed one believes that the Catholics are correct.

1 Peter 3:20: “…who had once been disobedient while God paitiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.”
Notice here that to Peter, Noah’s flood prefigured baptism, and yet while the water itself symbolized death, through Christ we are saved through it, as Noah was in the ark.

The crossing of the Red Sea by the Egyptians is also seen as a prefigurement of Baptism.
1 Corinthians 10:2: “For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea” Notice that the term “cloud” is the cloud of God that led Moses by day when the Egyptians were chasing them after the Exodus. Water, the Spirit of God, and Salvation are all linked, in a sense quite reminiscent of sacramental baptism. Why? Precisely because the Spirit and water are linked.**

But you can tell people they aren’t saved because they weren’t baptized. Can you not see how this is difficult to believe for me? And please, don’t be rude back like you have been. It’s just an honest question. **RESPONSE: Yes I can see that. However, realize that the Sacraments are also a way of showing how the Incarnation is restoring creation. Creation, the physical, was declared “good,” then was corrupted in the Fall. Jesus is, in essence, restoring the fallen back to what is “good” through the Sacraments, and indeed elevating it to what it should have been. Over-spiritualizing everything, as one can find in many protestant denominations, not only sounds suspiciously close to gnosticism (denying the good of the physical creation), but also makes it possible to “come to God” knowingly apart from His Church, which was never the purpose. He reaches to us through Grace, so that He may view us as Children. To actually become part of the family though, we must obey His precept, which is baptism. Baptism actually enables us to fight our inner struggle and live out our calling as sons of God. The Church officially damns no one person, all She can do is point the way to Salvation that was given to Her, which is Baptism. God chooses how and when to act outside of His own Sacraments.

You ask how I can expect you to believe that if you aren’t baptized, you aren’t saved. And yet, I point you back to Paul in Acts. The very idea of “hoping” to know the mind of God is dangerous, I would say playing with fire. If baptism is how we are baptized into Jesus’ death, then you are asking God to judge you apart from the eyes of Grace according to your invincible ignorance. It seems to be a sketchy plan. If you are not being judged by grace as a Father views his son, you are being judged by the Law in all its impassivity, and if you are guilty of one point you are guilty of all. **

 

[asmrbd]

Interesting…I have a Certificate of Baptism from a Protestant church…and it has no value to me… I found faith without works was dead to me…I took my faith for granted…after all…I was saved…so I didn’t need to do anything more…

I’m much more alive spiritually by constantly examining myself…now works WITHOUT faith is dead…but faith with works exihibiting that faith…there is perfect peace

100% agree, faith without works shows that it is dead, not real, didn’t happen.
But Eph 2:8-9 I know you know puts 100% of our salvation on Christ, because if there is any % of works we do, then we share in saving ourselves. We cannot save ourselves.

Works will abound. But they never equal grace.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

100% agree, faith without works shows that it is dead, not real, didn’t happen.
But Eph 2:8-9 I know you know puts 100% of our salvation on Christ, because if there is any % of works we do, then we share in saving ourselves. We cannot save ourselves.

Works will abound. But they never equal grace.

Yes–you have to have faith. But ohh it is soooo easy to just rest upon that alone. You may not even know your faith is dead… I certainly believed…I loved God…I loved Jesus…I believed that Christ died for me…but never went beyond that. It was so easy to just rest in that. That is when the lie sneaks up on you…the complacency sneaks up on you. You become lukewarm. I know that many Protestants think that Catholics think it’s more about works…not so. When I say many Protestans–understand I don’t mean all but many…but I have been on both sides. I thought that I was fine…after all I said the sinners prayer…I meant it…so I was fine. But that faith was NOTHING like what I have now.

Purgatory…yes–maybe the word is not in the bible…doesn’t mean the concept is not there. Of course maybe not exactly all in the Protestant bible…although if you have one that has the apocropha…then you may find it. After all Luther got rid of some of the books. However I challange you to find the word Trinity in the bible…doesn’t mean that the concept is not there. Purgatory is not hell…it doesn’t mean that you are not saved…that you are not forgiven. It is a purification BEFORE heaven. No one in purgatory will see hell. It is not a last chance type of place…last chance assumes that you might not get that chance and end up in hell. NOT so for purgatory.

I think we try to figure out how that works and the length of time and such…we don’t know…it’s beyond our realm of understanding. The Church teaches that no one knows the amount of time…and that prayers or indulgences don’t have a “set” amount of time that they take off purgatory. Because no one can really know for sure.

I can understand where people may not understand the concept but to say it was just made up by the Church to fit the Church’s purposes and to make money is just plain slander…not that you said that but others on this thread have.

 

[asmrbd]

Purgatory is not a big deal with me. The change will happen, I believe in the twinkling of an eye, we will go from mortal to immortal.

  Salvation is plain, Jesus said, that settles it.  We all reach the same point, we just question the precise sequence.

  As for works, I go out each week door to door and tell others about Jesus. As independent fundamentalists we are busy reaching the lost, we can become annoying.  :)

Because the world does not want the good news sometimes.
Trust me, faith alone for salavtion, but not faith alone for our Christian walk. There we get busy. Thanks for the reply. I am pleased that people like Nathan have a strong grasp of the sequence.

 

[MariaG]

Purgatory is not a big deal with me. The change will happen, I believe in the twinkling of an eye, we will go from mortal to immortal.

Salvation is plain, Jesus said, that settles it. We all reach the same point, we just question the precise sequence.

As for works, I go out each week door to door and tell others about Jesus. As independent fundamentalists we are busy reaching the lost, we can become annoying.
Because the world does not want the good news sometimes.

Trust me, faith alone for salavtion, but not faith alone for our Christian walk. There we get busy. Thanks for the reply. I am pleased that people like Nathan have a strong grasp of the sequence.

Just an FYI.

One of the reasons that it may seem like Catholics just don’t understand is that according to the Catholic definition, the definition used by all Christians until the reformation, Faith alone will not save anyone, and which is why the Catholic Church so firmly rejected the cry of the reformation of “Faith alone”.

Faith, as defined by the Chrisitian faith at that time, meant intellectual assent. One cannot be saved by intellectual assent alone. This is based on Scripture in James. Here is a link to an article that explains that.

Catholic definition of Salvation must include Faith, Hope, and Love.

While today, Catholics can accept the concept of “Faith Alone” as long as it is defined in a certain manner, that was not the case during the reformation.

A question I have long held is since Luther was a learned man, was his definition of Faith alone the same one that is held today by Protestants? He had to have known what the definition of Faith was, yet it was the “cry of the refomation”?

I cannot seem to find the article I was looking for but this one also by James Akin, gets into the differences of definitions of words that are commonly used by Christians, yet have very different meanings.

Righteousness and Merit by James Akin.

God Bless,
Maria

There is an article from Jimmy Akin that helps.

 

[asmrbd]

MariaG,

Thanks for the reply.  We say faith only because there are Bible verses that say that.

i.e Eph 2:8-9. and numerous verses in Romans. Plus word searh saved in John and you will find out that faith guarantees salvation. Repentance is not even mentioned, but it is part of the equation like works. Faith turns the key.

James showed that real faith had works.  They are inseparable.  But faith comes first and then works.  Works means we are going about oir Father's business, his will.

So works will be there.

In reference to Luther, what he read in the Bible was not be practiced in the CC.  In some cases salvation was being sold.  And he saw works as being part of people's salvation.  All he did was point to the verses, which show the Blood of the Lamb cleanses us from all unrighteousness.  

 The beauty of faith only is that it shows that 100% of our salvation comes from Jesus and we do nothing to attain it.  We will have many and great works, but they cannot replace the Blood.

 In summary, faith (is belief), and it results in repentance, baptism, Spirit baptism, remiision of sins and works.  Faith comes first.  

This thread picked up because of purgetory. You can know you are saved now.  1 Jn 5:13.   Eternity starts when we believe.  Note, saved is past tense. We see the gospel as simple.  we are not worthy before we are saved, and never will be worthy.  Christ died for all of our sins almost 2000 years before we were born.

Rom 8:1 There is no condemnation for those in Christ.
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

There are soooo many current tense promises, it all starts with faith.
John

 

[PAboy57]

I’m sure someone said it already in an elequent fashion but here is the short version.
After all that sin has been forgiven you must pay the temporal punishment for it. Make atonement for yourself assuming you are acceptable to even get into Heaven. Purgatory is that last stop to cleanse your soul so it is acceptable to see our Lord. Nothing unclean may enter Heaven. so that is it in a nutshell. you take a bath before you go to church I hope. same logic except this is the biggest church and it is forever. take care.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

There is no condemnation for those IN Christ. It never says you can’t fall away from the Faith, in which case you are no longer IN Christ. Half the book of Hebrews deals with just that, including the very book of 1 Corinthians.

The idea that “saving faith” necessarily produces good works presents its own host of problems, one of them being that in this belief, faith itself needs to be of a sufficient quality to save. Since man can’t judge the salvific quality of his own faith, this leaves it up in the air if you are even saved, because Man cannot know the mind of God. Man cannot determine the salvific quality of his own good works to determine if his faith is of salvific quality. More than this, because faith must be of a sufficient quality, instead of leaving faith up to grace, *faith becomes a work on the part of man *that must be judged by its own merits, APART from Grace. Why? Because NO faith is sufficient, no matter the quality. ALL faith is inferior, there is no “saving level,” since the faith comes from Grace to begin with. We can, however, exercise our free will, and choose not to cooperate with the Grace of God, to NOT do good works, in which case the dire consequences James speaks of comes true for you as well.

The question posed by James that should haunt the protestant mindset, particularly in 2:14, is he asks “can his faith save him (future tense),” NOT “Can he demonstrate that he is already saved?” (pointing to the past). If the person asked this question does not do the good works stated in 2:15, then the answer is no. Catholics read the verse exactly as it is: Can faith without works save a man. Protestants are tempted to read it as “can that *kind *of faith save a man.”

The problem is, James was speaking to other believers, who were meeting for worship and already HAD faith. Apparently, they must be taught and trained to do good works, otherwise James would not be telling them about good works, he’d be telling them they weren’t even saved. “Saving faith” is a catchphrase that is found nowhere in the Bible. James and Paul would not even need to exhort people to persevere against the Devil, because if they are saved the works will come naturally. This very concept defies the human experience.

More than this, James refers to Abraham and Rahab as examples, which was a continued justification, NOT a one time event.

All in all, this idea of “works will follow,” when followed through to all of its implications, is not only dangerous but potentially blasphemous.

 

[asmrbd]

I’m sure someone said it already in an elequent fashion but here is the short version.
After all that sin has been forgiven you must pay the temporal punishment for it. Make atonement for yourself assuming you are acceptable to even get into Heaven. Purgatory is that last stop to cleanse your soul so it is acceptable to see our Lord. Nothing unclean may enter Heaven. so that is it in a nutshell. you take a bath before you go to church I hope. same logic except this is the biggest church and it is forever. take care.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The word is powerful, it spoke heaven and earth into existence, it spoke and healed the sick, it became flesh (Jesus) and dwelt among us. I do not think God will have a problem getting us ready. It takes longer to get through purgatory than creation itself.

You can be washed in the Blood now. When we go to heaven, we will be found not guilty by the Blood.