Purgatory help

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I’m sure this has been beaten to death…but I have a question.
I have a Lutheran Missouri Synod background.
My question is not if purgatory exists (because that would defeat any great explanation that I need) so for this qustion, let’s just assume it exists…does the existance of pugatory kinda undermine, and basically undervalue every thing that Christ did on the cross for us as believers? Does the belief in purgatory basically negate all of the redemptive power and grace awarded us by His shed blood?

I don’t probably have a good grasp of the dogma/doctrine so please don’t treat me like any other protestant. Please just try to explain as best you can or give any examples that would be beneficial.

In Christ…
-J
 
Protestolic said:
I’m sure this has been beaten to death…but I have a question…does the existance of pugatory kinda undermine, and basically undervalue every thing that Christ did on the cross for us as believers?
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Not at all. The purification is an application of the merits of the Cross.
Does the belief in purgatory basically negate all of the redemptive power and grace awarded us by His shed blood?
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Not at all. The purification is an application of the merits of the Cross.
I don’t probably have a good grasp of the dogma/doctrine so please don’t treat me like any other protestant. Please just try to explain as best you can or give any examples that would be beneficial. In Christ…
-J
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Very briefly here is a simple explanation.
Fact 1: The vast majority of us die with some remaining attachment to sinful, selfish ways. Perhaps the most practical example would be someone who dies unexpectedly and has remaining unconfessed sins.
Fact 2: All who die in God’s grace and yet imperfectly so - due to remaining attachment to things of the flesh (ie, basically all of us) - need to be “purified” of these faults so that they can enjoy being in God’s presence for all eternity (ie Heaven), for Scripture tells us that “nothing imperfect shall enter Heaven”.
How, exactly, and when, exactly, do you think this happens? 🍿

The doctrine of Purgatory tells us that this process (ie should be thought of as a process (being purged), not a place) occurs after our death and immediate personal judgment (see Heb 9:27). We are immediately judged heaven bound or hell bound.
But prior to entering Heaven we are, by God’s grace merited by Christ’s Crucifixion, purified of our remaining attachments to self so that we can fully, completely and truly spend eternity in God’s Presence.
Everyone who goes to Purgatory will eventually be with God in Heaven - it is not a “second chance”. There is no failure in Purgatory…*there is nothing we “do” *in Purgatory to gain entrance to Heaven - it is something that is done to us by God out of His love for us and by grace alone.

Blessings!
 
Welcome!

The general idea behind purgatory is that we cannot enter heaven unless we are clean (Rev. 21:27). Most folks will agree that at any given point in their lives, they are not clean enough to stand before God at that very moment. We know that heaven has the souls of just men that have been made perfect (Hebrews 12:23). Purgatory is that process where the souls of the righteous are made perfect.

That really is all purgatory is, at least on a very high level. It is the process of being purged of our earthly uncleanliness so we can go be with God. It is not a ‘second chance’ or anything that in anyway undermines or replaces Christs sacrificial death for our salvation. Purgatory is the good old scrubbing we need so we can be clean enough to enter heaven.

I view purgatory as another example of Christ’s incredible love for us. Only through Him can we be saved and only through Him will we be saved. We can be saved even though we are still sinners. Keep in mind that there are only two possible destinations, heaven or hell. Purgatory is like your mom stopping you on the doorstep so you can take of your dirty shoes before coming in the house.

You can also see here for a more detailed explanation.
 
Protestolic said:
does the existance of pugatory kinda undermine, and basically undervalue every thing that Christ did on the cross for us as believers?
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No.
Protestolic said:
Does the belief in purgatory basically negate all of the redemptive power and grace awarded us by His shed blood?
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No.
Protestolic said:
I don’t probably have a good grasp of the dogma/doctrine so please don’t treat me like any other protestant. Please just try to explain as best you can or give any examples that would be beneficial.
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vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm
 
My understanding is that even though we are saved of our sins and forgiven by Jesus’ sacrifice, we still have the attachment and effects of our sins on us…so we need to be cleaned of it…we want to be pure when we come to God…so while He is aching for us to come to Him, and we to Him, we must be cleansed (purged). This burning desire of love cleanses our soul.
 
First off, let me thank each and every one of you for your comments and replies…I wasn’t sure how this “posting” thing was going to be received. So, I am thankful you have each given different verbiages for a very similar explanation. So, now have more questions! :confused: And it is my hope that no one takes offense to my words used or my scriptural verses. I’m just hoping for more clarification and understanding…

First, what is meant by “The purification is an application of the merits of the Cross.” What are “merits of the cross” and are there other “merits of the cross?”

Second, several responses state that we are in a state of attachment to our sin; and thus that is why a need for “cleansing/purification” is needed in addition to the shed blood. So, how does one interpret the following scriptural verses:
a. Psalm 103:12 - “…as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us…”
b. Isaiah 38:17 - “Behold, it was for my welfare that I had great bitterness; but in love you have delivered my life from the pit of destruction, for you have cast all my sins behind your back [literal translation: between the shouder blades].”
c. Micah 7:19 - “…He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities under foot. You will cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.”

It seems to me that believers in what Jesus has done for us on the cross, removes or detaches us from our sin. My understanding of these verses is that humans don’t “need/require” purgatory. They only need the belief of what Christ did for us. Our sins are “as far as the east is from the west”; our sins are “behind his back” (so God must not be able to see our sins anymore); and, our sins are “tread under foot” and “cast into the depths of the sea.” My sins seem to be pretty far away from me (not attached). And:

d. 1 John 1:7 - “If we walk in the light,as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.”

Thus, if we are walking in the way of Christ and we have fellowship with fellow believers in Christ, then His blood is our true cleanser from our sins. Not a “process”. Additionally, Isaiah 1:18 states, “though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.” There are many other references probably, but these are the ones that stick out in my mind…

And lastly, someone stated, “Purgatory is that process where the souls of the righteous are made perfect.” In Paul’s letter to the church in Colossae, Paul writes, “For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him…” (Colossians 1:19-22). It seems as though this quote describes our being made perfect not through some “process” but through the “the blood of his cross” and “his body of flesh by his death” and that by these things done by Christ, we are presented to him (God) as “holy and blameless and above reproach.” (ie. made perfect??) Please help me understand!

-J 🤷
 
Protestolic said:
It seems to me that believers in what Jesus has done for us on the cross, removes or detaches us from our sin. My understanding of these verses is that humans don’t “need/require” purgatory. They only need the belief of what Christ did for us.
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As a practical matter, do you see all those who believe living sin free lives?

If not, then I think you might want to reconsider if the verses you quote actually imply what you have concluded.

If we are to enter heaven, be in Gods presence, we must be actually holy, not imagined holy.

Chuck

Chuck
 
Protestolic said:
Second, several responses state that we are in a state of attachment to our sin; and thus that is why a need for “cleansing/purification” is needed in addition to the shed blood.

The purification of purgatory …is Christ purifying us…it not “needed in addition to the shed blood” but is part of his perfecting us

So, how does one interpret the following scriptural verses:
a. Psalm 103:12 - “…as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us…”

b. Isaiah 38:17 - “Behold, it was for my welfare that I had great bitterness; but in love you have delivered my life from the pit of destruction, for you have cast all my sins behind your back [literal translation: between the shouder blades].”
c. Micah 7:19 - “…He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities under foot. You will cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.”

It seems to me that believers in what Jesus has done for us on the cross, removes or detaches us from our sin. My understanding of these verses is that humans don’t “need/require” purgatory. They only need the belief of what Christ did for us. Our sins are “as far as the east is from the west”; our sins are “behind his back” (so God must not be able to see our sins anymore); and, our sins are “tread under foot” and “cast into the depths of the sea.” My sins seem to be pretty far away from me (not attached). And:

d. 1 John 1:7 - “If we walk in the light,as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.”

Thus, if we are walking in the way of Christ and we have fellowship with fellow believers in Christ, then His blood is our true cleanser from our sins. Not a “process”. Additionally, Isaiah 1:18 states, “though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.” There are many other references probably, but these are the ones that stick out in my mind…

And lastly, someone stated, “Purgatory is that process where the souls of the righteous are made perfect.” In Paul’s letter to the church in Colossae, Paul writes, “For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him…” (Colossians 1:19-22). It seems as though this quote describes our being made perfect not through some “process” but through the “the blood of his cross” and “his body of flesh by his death” and that by these things done by Christ, we are presented to him (God) as “holy and blameless and above reproach.” (ie. made perfect??) Please help me understand!

-J 🤷
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When a person is baptized…all of his sins…and even the temporal punishment for sins is completely removed …washed away “in the blood of the lamb”

At that moment we have been made ready to be “presented” holy and blameless and above all reproach before him"…but when we sin…we need to be cleansed of our sin…
and we also form various attachments to sin etc…that need to be purified.

If a person is still in the friendship of God…in a state of grace…they are holy…they are living in Christ…but they can still have venial sins etc that need to be forgiven…and other ways they need to be made by Christ to be “spotless” --“again”-- to be presented finally before God in Heaven…so one must seek forgiveness and penance on earth and seek to die to themselves and to sins…and become more like Christ on earth…and if they still need purification when they die (in Grace) they will be purified by God so they can be “spotless” etc …

Yes the blood of Christ continues to cleans us of sin in life (1 John 1:7)…and whatever still needs to be cleansed and “refined” by him in us when the moment of death finds us…he finishes this then…so we can be perfect…

All of the verses you quote are certainly true. But scripture needs to be taken as a whole and understood within the analogy of the Faith and as the Church understands it.
 
Here this text from Pope Benedict XVI may help…in regards to those who die in a state of Grace…but are still in need of purification…
  1. …For the great majority of people—we may suppose—there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God. In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil—much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul. What happens to such individuals when they appear before the Judge? Will all the impurity they have amassed through life suddenly cease to matter? What else might occur? Saint Paul, in his First Letter to the Corinthians, gives us an idea of the differing impact of God’s judgement according to each person’s particular circumstances. He does this using images which in some way try to express the invisible, without it being possible for us to conceptualize these images—simply because we can neither see into the world beyond death nor do we have any experience of it. Paul begins by saying that Christian life is built upon a common foundation: Jesus Christ. This foundation endures. If we have stood firm on this foundation and built our life upon it, we know that it cannot be taken away from us even in death. Then Paul continues: “Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:12-15). In this text, it is in any case evident that our salvation can take different forms, that some of what is built may be burned down, that in order to be saved we personally have to pass through “fire” so as to become fully open to receiving God and able to take our place at the table of the eternal marriage-feast.
  2. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning—it is the heart’s time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39]. The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice—the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together—judgement and grace—that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our “advocate”, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1).–Spe Salvi vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html
 
Thank you again for some clarification…it definitely is interesting and I guess my only response is that maybe I just need to pray about it and have faith that some kind of personal understanding will come…

As for why I ask the question regarding purgatory and why, if at all, it is important is because…

I have been to a number of rosaries and mass of christian burial in the catholic church (probably too many that I want to count) as my husband’s family (not him really) are of the Catholic tradition/faith…and at both the rosary and mass, no one really mentions “praying for those in purgatory” or is content that their loved one is “in purgatory.” It seems (as an outsider) that purgatory is only ever mentioned if someone from outside of the Catholic faith decides to question the tradition (ie. where it comes from in the Bible; why they believe this; or someone wants to “stir” the protestant/catholic turmoil, etc.). I would think that purgatory would be front stage at a funeral. However, I have almost always heard either by family members, the members of the church, and/or even the father/priest, that “so-in-so” is now with the Father or cradled in the arms of Christ and some even go so far as to say they are in Heaven. Is it true that Catholics believe the Father and Jesus are in heaven? And thus, the person who has died, in order to be with Father or Jesus, is in heaven? What happened to purgatory??? Does this make sense?

-J
 
Protestolic said:
And thus, the person who has died, in order to be with Father or Jesus, is in heaven? What happened to purgatory???
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Frankly, this is just a comforting thing to say to someone who has just lost a loved one, it is not even a certainty, and it is not an attempt to explain a theological truth.

We can Hope and Pray that a deceased loved one is in [or on their way to] Heaven without having a complete understanding of the timing involved from an Earthly human perspective.

Forgetting purgatory for a second, how long, in human terms, does it take one to enter heaven after death?

I think all Christians agree that we undergo our particular judgment at the point of death, but is that judgment instantaneous? Does it take many earthly hours, days, weeks, months, years?

The same thing is true of purgatory. It is something that happens to us on our way to heaven.

How long does it take in earthly time to complete this process? How long does it seem to take to the person going through the process? Are the two the same?

I don’t think we know the answers to any of these questions.

All that we know is that somewhere between death and heaven our “garments” go from stained and tattered to fresh, new and lily white.

Chuck
 
Protestolic said:
Thank you again for some clarification…it definitely is interesting and I guess my only response is that maybe I just need to pray about it and have faith that some kind of personal understanding will come…

As for why I ask the question regarding purgatory and why, if at all, it is important is because…

I have been to a number of rosaries and mass of christian burial in the catholic church (probably too many that I want to count) as my husband’s family (not him really) are of the Catholic tradition/faith…and at both the rosary and mass, no one really mentions “praying for those in purgatory” or is content that their loved one is “in purgatory.” It seems (as an outsider) that purgatory is only ever mentioned if someone from outside of the Catholic faith decides to question the tradition (ie. where it comes from in the Bible; why they believe this; or someone wants to “stir” the protestant/catholic turmoil, etc.). I would think that purgatory would be front stage at a funeral. However, I have almost always heard either by family members, the members of the church, and/or even the father/priest, that “so-in-so” is now with the Father or cradled in the arms of Christ and some even go so far as to say they are in Heaven. Is it true that Catholics believe the Father and Jesus are in heaven? And thus, the person who has died, in order to be with Father or Jesus, is in heaven? What happened to purgatory??? Does this make sense?

-J
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Sure it makes sense. Yes God (Trinity) is in heaven…unfortunately some in their desire to “console” etc may speak as if one knows the person is right away in heaven. AND they very well MAY be. But it is important in Christian love…to pray for them as if they May not be. Besides…in reading the above from Pope Benedict XVI…purgatory may be a very “existential” experience which may be “quick” in our eyes…( by the way he is one of the Theologians who have speculated that such is how it may be for those in need of it…)…but in any case the Church firmly professes that for those who need it…a finally purification occurs in some way. And our prayers can help in love.

If you listen to the words of the Liturgy of the Funeral one will find prayers for the faithful departed …what people say afterwards …is often an attempt to assume the best possibility…

and anycase a person who dies in the grace of Christ…will be will God …is certain to be with him.
 
I would definitely agree that those are comforting words…and I personally wouldn’t want the thought of purgatory being brought up at my funeral.

And as if we did forget about purgatory, it is my belief that one enters heaven right after death. So, why could/should I believe someting like that? Well, here I go again on another scripture verse that I may not completely understand, but: Luke 23:39-43…
Jesus is hanging on the cross with the two criminals. One rails at Jesus, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” The other criminal rebukes the other, then says to Jesus to “remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus replies, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” I believe that I am no better/different than either criminal; however, I do pray the Lord’s Prayer and the 2nd petition asks for his kingdom to come (to give the holy Spirit so that we believe His Word; to bring others into His kingdom of grace; to use us to extend His kingdom; and to hasten the coming of His kingdom). Jesus reply to the criminal’s petition and the prayer that he taught us to pray is that I will be with Him in Paradise. And I shall be in Paradise TODAY (not tomorrow, not in a millenium, not eventually.) Thus, I believe our judgment occurs on the day of our passing. But with the GOSPEL (John 3:16), I personally will be with Him in Paradise…

Again, this is just my current understanding. I’m definitely not saying it’s right, but it definitely makes sense to my brain and to my heart…but I’m definitely still praying on it! 🙂

-J
 
Protestolic said:
I would definitely agree that those are comforting words…and I personally wouldn’t want the thought of purgatory being brought up at my funeral. I do…for I want people to remember the charity of prayer for me…

And as if we did forget about purgatory, it is my belief that one enters heaven right after death. So, why could/should I believe someting like that? Well, here I go again on another scripture verse that I may not completely understand, but: Luke 23:39-43…
Jesus is hanging on the cross with the two criminals. One rails at Jesus, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” The other criminal rebukes the other, then says to Jesus to “remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus replies, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” I believe that I am no better/different than either criminal; however, I do pray the Lord’s Prayer and the 2nd petition asks for his kingdom to come (to give the holy Spirit so that we believe His Word; to bring others into His kingdom of grace; to use us to extend His kingdom; and to hasten the coming of His kingdom). Jesus reply to the criminal’s petition and the prayer that he taught us to pray is that I will be with Him in Paradise. And I shall be in Paradise TODAY (not tomorrow, not in a millenium, not eventually.) Thus, I believe our judgment occurs on the day of our passing. But with the GOSPEL (John 3:16), I personally will be with Him in Paradise…

If Jesus decided to “purify that person” right away…they can stil be in “paradise” right away…within that “day”… and if you read Pope Benedict XVI above…purgatory may be like that (it is a state you know…) for all…or for some…we do not know…but Jesus can certainly give the good thief his promise and make whatever exceptions to the norm he wants…but also one needs to think what did Jesus say by “today” …he could also have meant "truly I say to you today (that is right here and now…I tell you…I promise you…in the sense of a kind of formal pledge) “you” will be with me in paradise! Not that he will be with him “that day” …after all Jesus himself went down with the dead until the Resurrection! (on the THIRD DAY)…or he may have meant “Today” in some other non literal sense…

-J
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Philthy said:
You never answered my question about how, exactly, and when, exactly, we are forgiven of unconfessed sins. 1John 1:9 is abundantly clear: IF we confess our sins…he forgives us and cleanses us from all unrighteousness." But what happens if we don’t? Anyhow, what do you think happens to those sins that are unconfessed at the time of death? Apparently you believe they are forgiven. When, however, does this forgiveness happen? How, exactly, does it happen?
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You are right! I didn’t so I guess I will have another go at it…

According to many scriptural texts, including Romans 1:16-17, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written ‘The one who by faith is righteous shall live.’” and Hebrews 10:37-39, “For, ‘Yet a little while, and the coming one will come and will not delay; but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him.’ But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.”, it is the lack of faith in Christ that is the cause for our damnation. Just because one who professes faith in Christ and is taken from this world suddenly and is unable to specifically “confess” every sin he or she was conscious of before dying does not automatically condemn them nor does it make them unrighteous. In Romans 3:5 it states, “And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.”. It is their faith in Christ counted as righteousness, not confession of sins, that saves them.

It is a person’s faith in what Christ has done that makes them righteous in God’s eyes - That would be the HOW.
As for the WHEN, I personally believe it is when that person came to faith in what Christ had done for them. It doesn’t sound as though God will take away one’s righteousness as long as they have faith in their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

-J
 
Jesus dying on the cross made it so our sins were able to be forgiven (before Jesus, nobody went to Heaven). Also, nobody “deserves” Heaven, even the most perfect sinless person. God is infinitely greater than any of us are or will ever be. Jesus’s work helped to bridge that gap so Heaven is possible. However, we must still meet him part way to close the gap. We cannot sin our entire lives and expect to be saved. Those who die in mortal sin–who choose to live without God forever–will go to hell. Almost everyone else, who have only venial sins not big enough to break our friendship with God, but are still offensive Him, needs purgatory to enter Heaven.
 
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