Purgatory help

[Protestolic]

OK, lets try again: after we have come to faith in Christ and we sin, are we automatically forgiven or not? Yes or No

I think the straight answer to this is no. We have to confess our sins, repent of our sins, in order to be forgiven. And I know that you are probably going to say, “what happens to the believer who has un-confessed sins and dies?” I believe that if a person dies believing in Christ, that person will be saved–whether or not it was possible for that person to specifically “confess” every sin he or she was conscious of before dying because of their faith in Christ.

Are there any sins that separate us from Christ and cause us to fall from Grace?Y or N

My understanding is that there is only one sin, one unforgivable sin, that separates us from Christ. In Mark 3:29, Jesus says, “but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

May I humbly submit that you are confusing what is required to become Christian(faith alone by grace alone) from what is required to enter the Kingdom of God (ie heaven)?

Yes, you may humbly submit that, and I have to humbly admit that you are correct. I have confused the two. Maybe I am naive in my belief that becoming a Christian allows one to enter the Kingdom of God. And maybe one does need purification to enter the Kingdom of God.

I found this really interesting part about purgatory last night from Catholic Christianity by Peter Kreeft. It says, “The existence of purgatory logically follows from two facts: our imperfection on earth and our perfection in heaven: At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy), even thugh we ae justified, or saved by having been baptized into Christ’s Body and having thereby received God’s supernatural life into our souls, having accepted him by faith and not having rejected him by unrepented mortal sin.”

This part is interesting to me. And maybe I need to reclarify my original question…and as my Catholic friend says, maybe I need to go to CRIA (?) to get all of my questions appropriately answered. I obviously wrongly made the incorrect conclusion that purgatory negates the power of what Christ did on the cross. I think we are in a consensus that Christ’s blood removes our sin. But what removes our sinfulness so that we may enter the Kingdom of God? I believe Catholics are taught it is purgatory that will remove our sinfulness and make us righteous in God’s eyes? So, where does that leave the sanctification power of the Holy Spirit? Maybe I’m more in the process of understanding if the dogma/doctrine of purgatory undermines the power of the Holy Spirit. Maybe someone can explain how the Holy Spirit can act as sanctifier, the Lord and Giver of Life (from the creeds), and yet, one still needs sanctification thru purgatory? Not to make someone go on the defensive, but it is interesting that Jesus even said whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit is guilty of an eternal sin, and that maybe why he said this is because the Holy Spirit sanctifies us, the Holy Spirit makes us holy, the Holy Spirit call us to Christ, the Holy Spirit enlightens us by revealing God’s Word and ways, and the Holy Spirit keeps us flourishing in Christ. If we blaspheme the Holy Spirit, then how can these things be worked in us?

See Titus 3:3-7 - “At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.”

-J

 

[pablope]

I think the straight answer to this is no. We have to confess our sins, repent of our sins, in order to be forgiven. And I know that you are probably going to say, “what happens to the believer who has un-confessed sins and dies?” I believe that if a person dies believing in Christ, that person will be saved–whether or not it was possible for that person to specifically “confess” every sin he or she was conscious of before dying because of their faith in Christ.

My understanding is that there is only one sin, one unforgivable sin, that separates us from Christ. In Mark 3:29, Jesus says, “but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

Yes, you may humbly submit that, and I have to humbly admit that you are correct. I have confused the two. Maybe I am naive in my belief that becoming a Christian allows one to enter the Kingdom of God. And maybe one does need purification to enter the Kingdom of God.

I found this really interesting part about purgatory last night from Catholic Christianity by Peter Kreeft. It says, “The existence of purgatory logically follows from two facts: our imperfection on earth and our perfection in heaven: At the moment of death, most of us are not completely sanctified (purified, made holy), even thugh we ae justified, or saved by having been baptized into Christ’s Body and having thereby received God’s supernatural life into our souls, having accepted him by faith and not having rejected him by unrepented mortal sin.”

This part is interesting to me. And maybe I need to reclarify my original question…and as my Catholic friend says, maybe I need to go to CRIA (?) to get all of my questions appropriately answered. I obviously wrongly made the incorrect conclusion that purgatory negates the power of what Christ did on the cross. I think we are in a consensus that Christ’s blood removes our sin. But what removes our sinfulness so that we may enter the Kingdom of God? I believe Catholics are taught it is purgatory that will remove our sinfulness and make us righteous in God’s eyes? So, where does that leave the sanctification power of the Holy Spirit? Maybe I’m more in the process of understanding if the dogma/doctrine of purgatory undermines the power of the Holy Spirit. Maybe someone can explain how the Holy Spirit can act as sanctifier, the Lord and Giver of Life (from the creeds), and yet, one still needs sanctification thru purgatory? Not to make someone go on the defensive, but it is interesting that Jesus even said whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit is guilty of an eternal sin, and that maybe why he said this is because the Holy Spirit sanctifies us, the Holy Spirit makes us holy, the Holy Spirit call us to Christ, the Holy Spirit enlightens us by revealing God’s Word and ways, and the Holy Spirit keeps us flourishing in Christ. If we blaspheme the Holy Spirit, then how can these things be worked in us?

See Titus 3:3-7 - “At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.”

-J

Hi, J…

RCIA…Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults…it is given at various times in Catholic parishes to those wishing to learn of the Catholic faith. It is optional if at the end, one may wish to be Catholic (others…please correct me if I didn’t get this right).

As for In Mark 3:29, Jesus says, “but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

The way I understand this verse, this is the total rejection of Christ, not wanting to be in Christ and be with Christ, thereby a rejection of the Holy Spirit.

On the Titus verse…look at the last part…*so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life."
*

It says “we might”…not “we shall” or “we will”…so this implies there is still something that needs to be done.

I will offer you some verses to reflect on:

Matthew 7:21 (New American Standard Bible)
21"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

[Protestolic]

What about what is said in Romans?

Romans 7:14-25

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

AND

Romans 8:1-11

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[Bookcat]

What about what is said in Romans?

A person who dies in the grace of Christ…is dying “in Christ” …there is no condemnation for them. The purification of the soul by God is not a condemnation…it is a “refining” purification…taking the dross out of the gold and perfecting the gold.

If a person is living in Christ on earth…same thing…there is “no condemnation”…but if they do what Paul says to Christians in I Cor 6:9-10…and are not restored to Christ they condemn themselves …are no longer “alive in Christ”.

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts,
nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (RSV CE)

This is just one verse…among many…that point to the fact that one must preservere in Christ to the end…

 

[germangreek]

Think of it as the process described by St. Paul in 1 Cor. 3. This describes what happens to Christians only - those who have built on the foundation of Christ - whose entire lives are tested by some kind of “fire”. They all survive, but some receive some kind of a reward and some find that their work is “burned up”, though they themselves are saved.

 

[Philthy]

I think the straight answer to this is no. We have to confess our sins, repent of our sins, in order to be forgiven. And I know that you are probably going to say, “what happens to the believer who has un-confessed sins and dies?” I believe that if a person dies believing in Christ, that person will be saved–whether or not it was possible for that person to specifically “confess” every sin he or she was conscious of before dying because of their faith in Christ.

Excellent! When, exactly, and how, exactly, does this happen? And don’t worry, I wont ask you to supply Scripture verses for your belief

Originally Posted by Philthy forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Are there any sins that separate us from Christ and cause us to fall from Grace?Y or N

My understanding is that there is only one sin, one unforgivable sin, that separates us from Christ. In Mark 3:29, Jesus says, “but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

Did you not read my signature?! Galatians 5:4 “You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
This is kind of off topic, but I sensed that you have been taught that we cannot, through sin, separate ourselves from Christ (ie lose our salvation). Such a belief is a serious error and I simply wanted you to see that you have been exposed to some errors in order to be a little more open to the issues we are discussing regarding Purgatory.

Yes, you may humbly submit that, and I have to humbly admit that you are correct. I have confused the two. Maybe I am naive in my belief that becoming a Christian allows one to enter the Kingdom of God. And maybe one does need purification to enter the Kingdom of God.

You are absolutely correct in that becoming a Christian is required to enter the KOG, but what you may place too little emphasis on is REMAINING ONE. We are called to take up our cross daily and follow Him. If you REALLY wish to learn a little more on the topic of the difference between “being saved” and “inheriting the KOG” I recommend you carefully read 1 Cor 6, Galations 5 and Ephesians 5. Also, you may find this ongoing thread enlightening;
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=480585

I found this really interesting part about purgatory last night from Catholic Christianity by Peter Kreeft.

I hear he is excellent! Im glad you found his material clearer than mine

I obviously wrongly made the incorrect conclusion that purgatory negates the power of what Christ did on the cross. I think we are in a consensus that Christ’s blood removes our sin.

When you really think about it, the term “washed in his blood” is largely figurative. We are forgiven based upon what Christ earned on our behalf; the merit he accomplished on the Cross.

But what removes our sinfulness so that we may enter the Kingdom of God? I believe Catholics are taught it is purgatory that will remove our sinfulness and make us righteous in God’s eyes?

Absolutely not!!! Purgatory is an explanation of how we who die in a state of imperfection actually become perfected by God’s grace.

So, where does that leave the sanctification power of the Holy Spirit?

Sanctification by the HS occurs during this life and during our purging (ie Purgatory) after we die. Remember what I said from the beginning: it is something God does TO and FOR us, and in this case it is the HS accomplishing it.

Maybe I’m more in the process of understanding if the dogma/doctrine of purgatory undermines the power of the Holy Spirit. Maybe someone can explain how the Holy Spirit can act as sanctifier, the Lord and Giver of Life (from the creeds), and yet, one still needs sanctification thru purgatory?

Very simply, sanctification by the HS is begun here on earth and COMPLETED IN PURGATORY.

See Titus 3:3-7 - “At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.”
-J
I love this verse! It was one of my memory verses from a bible study…
What do you think the washing of rebirth is? Here is another translation to help you out…
“he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit,”
Compare Titus3:5 to John 3:5…I think you will find it interesting and informative.

Lots of diversions…

Blessings

 

[paul_c]

Protestolic,

perhaps this will help you.

Can anyone in heaven sin? I assume you will understand that the answer is no.
So how can you be sure not to sin? Most people do not reach this level of holiness in life. That’s where purgatory comes in - after death, if you die in the state of grace but still have sinful tendencies, you will be purged of those tendencies before entering heaven. This is done in purgatory.

 

[Philthy]

Very simply, sanctification by the HS is begun here on earth and COMPLETED IN PURGATORY.

Slight clarification:

Very simply, sanctification by the HS is begun here on earth and *if *it is not completed before our mortal life ends (the typical scenario) then it is completed in Purgatory. Regardless of whether it happens during our mortal lives or in eternity, it is all a work of the HS and part of the grace which flows from Christ’s Crucifixion.

I get the feeling someone began to see the light and it scared her away…I pray that we are all open to the Truth…

Blessings!

 

[fhansen]

I’m sure this has been beaten to death…but I have a question.
I have a Lutheran Missouri Synod background.
My question is not if purgatory exists (because that would defeat any great explanation that I need) so for this qustion, let’s just assume it exists…does the existance of pugatory kinda undermine, and basically undervalue every thing that Christ did on the cross for us as believers? Does the belief in purgatory basically negate all of the redemptive power and grace awarded us by His shed blood?

I don’t probably have a good grasp of the dogma/doctrine so please don’t treat me like any other protestant. Please just try to explain as best you can or give any examples that would be beneficial.

In Christ…
-J

The doctrine of purgatory doesn’t negate Christs’ work because, in Catholic theology, we’re to follow Christ in fulfilling the Law, i.e. no sinners will enter heaven. The Good Shepard pulls His lost sheep out of the pit and then helps them not to fall back in-helps us to “Go, and sin no more”. However, as with Adam & Eves’ first sin, He doesn’t force us to sin no more-He wants us to choose rightly in order to become just, i.e. to be justified. So Purgatory can simply be another step in this process-a merciful “place” or state where we learn further of our need for God and of the futility and loss of choosing anything else over Him first and foremost.

 

[By_His_Mercy]

I believe it’s the purging of wood/hay/stubble in 1 Cor 3:15. It involves a loss of rewards in heaven, but I think it goes further…I think it’s very uncomfortable. “Suffer loss”…“as through fire”… The standard Gk lexicon says the meaning of the word behind “suffer loss” also means “be punished” (def #2) and lists 1 Cor 3:15 as the example for this usage. Looking at the overall context, I think this fits. If it’s unpleasant, the only reason I can think of why is that it’s disciplinary…to remove any existing attachment to sin before we enter heaven. All remnants of rebellion are taken away via a last disciplinary lesson. -BHM

 

[paul_c]

I believe it’s the purging of wood/hay/stubble in 1 Cor 3:15. It involves a loss of rewards in heaven, but I think it goes further…I think it’s very uncomfortable. “Suffer loss”…“as through fire”… The standard Gk lexicon says the meaning of the word behind “suffer loss” also means “be punished” (def #2) and lists 1 Cor 3:15 as the example for this usage. Looking at the overall context, I think this fits. If it’s unpleasant, the only reason I can think of why is that it’s disciplinary…to remove any existing attachment to sin before we enter heaven. All remnants of rebellion are taken away via a last disciplinary lesson. -BHM

Careful here, I don’t think the Catholic church teaches that purgatory involves a lack of rewards in heaven. Its simply as you said, a state to remove any attachment to sin before we enter heaven.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I’m sure this has been beaten to death…but I have a question.
I have a Lutheran Missouri Synod background.
My question is not if purgatory exists (because that would defeat any great explanation that I need) so for this qustion, let’s just assume it exists…does the existance of pugatory kinda undermine, and basically undervalue every thing that Christ did on the cross for us as believers? Does the belief in purgatory basically negate all of the redemptive power and grace awarded us by His shed blood?

I don’t probably have a good grasp of the dogma/doctrine so please don’t treat me like any other protestant. Please just try to explain as best you can or give any examples that would be beneficial.

In Christ…
-J

No.

The work of Christ makes the purification that takes place in purgatory possible. Purgation IS His final work on the soul.

Articles on Purgatory

Purgatory
catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp

Purgatory
By Rev. William G. Most
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9204chap.asp

**PURGATORY IN ALL BUT NAME **
By W. ROBERT ANFILL
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801fea2.asp

Is Purgatory Found in the Bible?
By Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp

Purgatory? Where Is That in the Bible?
By Mark P. Shea
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0103fea2.asp

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Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspectiveby Victor R. Claveau
freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2033423/posts

How to Argue the Existence of Purgatory
By Jason Evert
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp

How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants
by James Akin
ewtn.com/library/answers/how2purg.htm