Purgatory Help!?

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Hello all,

I am being welcomed into the Catholic Church on Easter of this year. I have quick question. I was raised in a very rich Protestant Background and know VERY little about Purgatory. I had a discussion today with a friend ( it wasn’t heated, simply a discussion) regarding Purgatory. I explained that it was a place where those who were in the grace of God but not yet totally purified would go to become pure to enter the glories of Heaven. She countered with a “well doesn’t that just cheapen the sacrifice of Christ? If going to Purgatory can allow you to enter Heaven, then why did Jesus need to die?”. I really had no idea how to respond to that. Did I approach the answer incorrectly? I told her I would get back with her after I had studied and learned a little more. Thanks.
 
You still have to go to Christ to get into heaven through purgatory. It is precisely because of Christ’s sacrifice that purgatory is an option. It doesn’t cheapen the sacrifice, it shows how powerful and beautiful the sacrifice was. It reveals the depth of God’s love for us.

*As a side note, I would respond with the counterclaim that God would send people to hell for the slightest infraction as cheapening God’s grace. To indicate that a just God would punish a person who stole a pencil the same as a person who murdered his mother seems to me to ‘cheapen the sacrifice of Christ’.
 
Hello all,

I am being welcomed into the Catholic Church on Easter of this year. I have quick question. I was raised in a very rich Protestant Background and know VERY little about Purgatory. I had a discussion today with a friend ( it wasn’t heated, simply a discussion) regarding Purgatory. I explained that it was a place where those who were in the grace of God but not yet totally purified would go to become pure to enter the glories of Heaven. She countered with a “well doesn’t that just cheapen the sacrifice of Christ? If going to Purgatory can allow you to enter Heaven, then why did Jesus need to die?”. I really had no idea how to respond to that. Did I approach the answer incorrectly? I told her I would get back with her after I had studied and learned a little more. Thanks.
Jesus died so that we ‘might’ be saved 🙂

For me purgatory is a process rather than a place and is biblical, ie: those saved through fire, and also when Jesus died for 3 days he went and saved some people in death. These people could not have been in heaven as they were already saved, not from hell as once in hell always in hell. Hence they must have been in another place. Purgatory 🙂

Check out the Catechism which can be found online as well. I think you did a great job, especially being able to say “I dont know but ill find out and get back to you”. Just make sure you get back to them 😉
 
She countered with a "well doesn’t that just cheapen the sacrifice of Christ?
How? Its Christ’s sacrifice that specifically has made purgatory possible. It is because God is merciful that even those who fall a little short of the glory of heaven will still have a chance to get there.
If going to Purgatory can allow you to enter Heaven, then why did Jesus need to die?".
Purgatory is not a replacement of Christ. Christ enables salvation, Purgatory is just one of the means to achieve it.
 
Graceandfaith
From a Protestant – “If going to Purgatory can allow you to enter Heaven, then why did Jesus need to die?".
Because
  1. He had to **redeem us **from the effects of Original Sin which had closed heaven, but was opened by Him for us
  2. For our salvation, what is needed still is what we can and should suffer with Him; have to suffer, and offer supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings as coredeemers (1 Tim 2:5).
    It is St. Paul, who wrote: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience. [Frank Sheed, *Christ In Eclipse, p 105-7].
  3. The doctrine of Purgatory is found in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”
    As the Catholic Church gave us the Bible by declaring what books and no others make up the Canon of the Sacred Scriptures, those without this immense treasure lack many things.
 
Hello all,

I am being welcomed into the Catholic Church on Easter of this year.

I explained that it was a place where those who were in the grace of God but not yet totally purified would go to become pure to enter the glories of Heaven. She countered with a “well doesn’t that just cheapen the sacrifice of Christ? If going to Purgatory can allow you to enter Heaven, then why did Jesus need to die?”. I really had no idea how to respond to that. Did I approach the answer incorrectly? I told her I would get back with her after I had studied and learned a little more. Thanks.
“cheapen Christ’s sacrifice” is a common Protestant misconception about purgatory.

It is best answered by the writing of a former protestant…Scott Hahn…in here…(http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html)…“Purgatory, Holy Fire”

You can give the whole article to your friend…but I will quote an excerpt here…

On the one hand, as an Evangelical Protestant, I had firm convictions about the finished work of Jesus Christ; that He accomplished our redemption on the cross. Those convictions I still hold fast to. Every Christian, every Catholic must. The work of our redemption is accomplished. It is finished. But the application of that redemptive work of Christ by the Holy Spirit is another matter, one that I did not really come to grips with because it involves suffering which nobody wants to come to grips with — either suffering in this life or suffering afterwards to expiate or to repay or to provide restitution for the effects of sin.

But that distinction is going to be crucial from the beginning of our time today until the end — that Christ has accomplished our redemption. It’s over and done with. He has finished it. But then He sends the Holy Spirit to apply it, and the application of redemption is just as essential. We don’t have a binary deity, the Father and the Son We have a trinitery deity, a family — a Father, a Son and a Holy Spirit. Jesus said, “I come to baptize with fire and spirit.” And so, when the Spirit comes at Pentecost, tongues of fire appear, and whenever the Holy Spirit appears, there is Holy Fire. When we are taken up into the Spirit, there we are consumed with a passionate, burning love, the furnace of Christ’s heart, the reality of the Holy Spirit, the fiery love of God.

That is not because Christ’s work is not enough. It’s rather the application of the work of Jesus Christ.

Those people who in God’s grace and mercy are allowed to enter into purgatory die in a state of grace, not just with supernatural faith and hope but with supernatural charity that was alive in their hearts and lives. That is the prerequisite for entering purgatory. You cannot die in the state of mortal sin; you cannot die estranged from God, in a way hostile to God, having committed yourself to valuing things of the world more than the creator of the world. You cannot do those things and enter purgatory, much less heaven. Purgatory is not a second chance. It’s only for those whom God has from all eternity destined for heaven, and it’s only for those who die in a state of grace.

Furthermore, we’ve got to clarify the fact that it is not to make up for Christ’s unfinished work. I’ve already said that, but that, too, is a common misconception that continually needs clarification. There’s nothing inadequate about the work of Christ. It’s finished, but it needs to be applied.

Now what does this mean, that Christ has not paid for our sin? Of course not. It doesn’t mean that. Christ has paid once and for all for our sin. His death is the ultimate satisfaction and price for our redemption, but His life and His death must be lived out in us. That’s why we need to pick up our cross, and we need to imitate Christ. Did you catch that? We don’t suffer because Christ’s sufferings weren’t enough. We suffer because Christ’s life must be reproduced in us. It is finished. It is accomplished, but now it must be applied. The work of the third person of the Holy Spirit is New Testament history, is personal history.
 
Hello all,

I am being welcomed into the Catholic Church on Easter of this year. I have quick question. I was raised in a very rich Protestant Background and know VERY little about Purgatory. I had a discussion today with a friend ( it wasn’t heated, simply a discussion) regarding Purgatory. I explained that it was a place where those who were in the grace of God but not yet totally purified would go to become pure to enter the glories of Heaven. She countered with a “well doesn’t that just cheapen the sacrifice of Christ? If going to Purgatory can allow you to enter Heaven, then why did Jesus need to die?”. I really had no idea how to respond to that. Did I approach the answer incorrectly? I told her I would get back with her after I had studied and learned a little more. Thanks.
First off, let’s offer a little correction: purgatory is not a place in the physical sense of the word. The church has not described exactly what it is in terms of location. We also know that purgatory, being of the spirit, is outside of our understanding of time.

So what has the church actually said about purgatory? The church defines purgatory as a PROCESS, which, in order to satisfy the demand in Revelation that nothing imperfect should enter heaven, cleanses us of any iniquity. In other words, when we die, we will all (generally) be in some state of imperfection… we will have areas where our will is not perfectly aligned with God. Purgatory is the grace of Christ acting to fix these areas and align our will and our hearts totally to God.

Protestants believe in purgatory too! In fact, they have to, since purgatory is so clearly biblical… but here’s the rub: they call it sanctification instead, and they don’t ALWAYS believe it occurs after death or involves intrinsic purification (some use the “snow covered dung heap” metaphor… which is heresy). So you can tell your friend that either she should tear that page out of her bible (Revelation 21, I believe), or she should get on board with recognizing that sanctification/purgation is not just in the bible, but it’s the only hope, through Christ’s grace, that any of us have to get into heaven.
 
Hello all,

I am being welcomed into the Catholic Church on Easter of this year. I have quick question. I was raised in a very rich Protestant Background and know VERY little about Purgatory. I had a discussion today with a friend ( it wasn’t heated, simply a discussion) regarding Purgatory. I explained that it was a place where those who were in the grace of God but not yet totally purified would go to become pure to enter the glories of Heaven. She countered with a “well doesn’t that just cheapen the sacrifice of Christ? If going to Purgatory can allow you to enter Heaven, then why did Jesus need to die?”. I really had no idea how to respond to that. Did I approach the answer incorrectly? I told her I would get back with her after I had studied and learned a little more. Thanks.
FIRST…

Welcome home! God Bless you for having the courage to follow Christ where he is leading you and to make changes in your life.
I wish you a very blessed Happy Easter.

SECOND…

I think you exactly explained it correctly. Notice that she either misunderstood you OR slightly twisted what you said.

If you are accurately paraphrasing exactly what you said, then you were absolutely correct.
You indicated that you must be in the grace of God before you can enter.

What she took that to mean was that Purgatory was an alternative means to slip in the side door of heaven. - I may be putting words in her mouth, but it is a common misconception.

Purgatory is not an alternative way into heaven. You have to already be destined for that and have accepted Christ’s sacrifice and been forgiven of your sins.
In “protestant-ese” or terminology, what you said was basically “You must be saved and have faith in Jesus Christ”

There are numerous analogies that come to mind.

I’ve used…
You come into my house with mud on your shoes and track mud all over the house. I can forgive you (sins forgiven because of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross) but there is still mud on my carpet. Purgatory is simply cleaning up the mud. The fact that mud still remains, doesn’t change the fact that I forgive you. It doesn’t mean I forgive you or love you any less. But there is mud that must be dealt with. Forgiven or not. That’s just the natural result of having mud on one’s shoes.

It cheapens nothing. In fact, I’d argue that if we TRULY loved Jesus, we’d want to TRULY be clean and spotless, leaving all our worldly concerns and habits, stains and impurities behind. Not just have them "covered’ but truly cleaned off. So we can enter heaven pure and spotless.
 
I wrote a paper on purgatory for anyone who is interested.

It covers:
  • what the Church says purgatory is and what the Church says it isn’t
  • the requirements for entry into heaven
  • mortal and venial sin in the context of the covenant
  • how a heaven and hell only theology makes no sense in light of mortal and venial sin
  • the biblical basis for all of the above.
The paper is available here.

-Tim-
 
Thank you all so much for your advice and replies. I read through the article done by Dr. Hahn. It was super informative and went into great historical and theological detail. It cleared up many misconceptions/misunderstanding I had about the doctrince of Purgatory. I haven’t had a chance to carry on another conversation with my friend…but I feel I am prepared to speak the truth in love. Thank you all so much.
 
For all of those of you who reply to Purgatory, quote me your scriptural basis; both new and old testament. I am from the school that your rewards will be based on how faithful you have been to the teachings of Christ. Everyone who is saved will enjoy a place of fellowship in heaven based on their perseverance in Faith in Jesus Christ! Purgatory cheapens Jesus Christ purpose on earth as our Saviour.
 
For all of those of you who reply to Purgatory, quote me your scriptural basis; both new and old testament. I am from the school that your rewards will be based on how faithful you have been to the teachings of Christ. Everyone who is saved will enjoy a place of fellowship in heaven based on their perseverance in Faith in Jesus Christ! Purgatory cheapens Jesus Christ purpose on earth as our Saviour.
Please read post 6. There is a link that explains the basis from the OT to the NT.

The answer to your last statement is contained within the article…from which I quote…

On the one hand, as an Evangelical Protestant, I had firm convictions about the finished work of Jesus Christ; that He accomplished our redemption on the cross. Those convictions I still hold fast to. Every Christian, every Catholic must. The work of our redemption is accomplished. It is finished. But the application of that redemptive work of Christ by the Holy Spirit is another matter, one that I did not really come to grips with because it involves suffering which nobody wants to come to grips with — either suffering in this life or suffering afterwards to expiate or to repay or to provide restitution for the effects of sin.

Furthermore, we’ve got to clarify the fact that it is not to make up for Christ’s unfinished work. I’ve already said that, but that, too, is a common misconception that continually needs clarification. There’s nothing inadequate about the work of Christ. It’s finished, but it needs to be applied.

Now what does this mean, that Christ has not paid for our sin? Of course not. It doesn’t mean that. Christ has paid once and for all for our sin. His death is the ultimate satisfaction and price for our redemption, but His life and His death must be lived out in us. That’s why we need to pick up our cross, and we need to imitate Christ. Did you catch that? We don’t suffer because Christ’s sufferings weren’t enough. We suffer because Christ’s life must be reproduced in us. It is finished. It is accomplished, but now it must be applied. The work of the third person of the Holy Spirit is New Testament history, is personal history.
 
For all of those of you who reply to Purgatory, quote me your scriptural basis; both new and old testament. I am from the school that your rewards will be based on how faithful you have been to the teachings of Christ. Everyone who is saved will enjoy a place of fellowship in heaven based on their perseverance in Faith in Jesus Christ! Purgatory cheapens Jesus Christ purpose on earth as our Saviour.
Quite the opposite…

I put forth the idea that a theology with only Heaven and Hell is not consistent with a God who is a loving and merciful father. I back up that claim with many quotes and passages from both the New and Old Testament in my three part article linked below.

The Biblical Basis for Catholic Beliefs: **Purgatory - Part 1
**The Biblical Basis for Catholic Beliefs: Purgatory - Part 2
The Biblical Basis for Catholic Beliefs: Purgatory - Part 3

Please write back and let me know what you think. I would love to discuss it further.

-Tim-
 
You still have to go to Christ to get into heaven through purgatory. It is precisely because of Christ’s sacrifice that purgatory is an option. It doesn’t cheapen the sacrifice, it shows how powerful and beautiful the sacrifice was. It reveals the depth of God’s love for us.

*As a side note, I would respond with the counterclaim that God would send people to hell for the slightest infraction as cheapening God’s grace. To indicate that a just God would punish a person who stole a pencil the same as a person who murdered his mother seems to me to ‘cheapen the sacrifice of Christ’.
God does not send people to hell for small infractions or large infractions. The word of God says will are all under sin. We are born with a sin nature that is against God. Only when we are born again, John 3:3 do we become children of God and heaven is the reward. God’s grace is freely given and God calls all His own perfect. We stand in front of God with Christ’s righteousness not our own. So no one earns heaven either on earth or in purgatory.
 
God does not send people to hell for small infractions or large infractions. The word of God says will are all under sin. We are born with a sin nature that is against God. Only when we are born again, John 3:3 do we become children of God and heaven is the reward. God’s grace is freely given and God calls all His own perfect. We stand in front of God with Christ’s righteousness not our own. So no one earns heaven either on earth or in purgatory.
First, is it possible to be saved and then lose that salvation? Hebrews 6 seems to believe so… (for it is impossible for those who have been enlightened… and have fallen away)

Second, is imputed righteousness scriptural? No. The idea of imputed righteousness, that we can enter heaven on someone else’s righteousness, is ABSOLUTELY contrary to what Revelation says (“nothing impure can enter heaven”).

Finally, purgatory is not even remotely about EARNING heaven, but rather about God’s grace working to purge us of our impurity. It is a “free gift” of grace from the cross, as you say.
 
God does not send people to hell for small infractions or large infractions.

So no one earns heaven either on earth or in purgatory.
Actually, when one is in purgatory…one is on the way to heaven…is the process of purgation prior entering heaven…for as Revelation says…nothing unclean shall enter Heaven.
We stand in front of God with Christ’s righteousness not our own.
And can you show me a chapter and verse where this is said?

And how would you reconcile such verse with the following:

From Rom 2: 5But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God.

** 6Who will render to every man according to his works.**

And in the parable of the sheep and goats in Matt 25…

in Matthew 25:31-46 the sheep are welcomed into heaven while the goats are sent to hell Verse 46 boldly says that the righteous will go to eternal life. Are they declared righteous or made righteous (hence are righteous)? Verses 35 and 36 tell us that they did righteous acts, i.e. they did not use Christ’ righteousness to cover their unrighteousness or to make their unrighteous things appear righteous (before God). 1 John 3:8 defines righteousness as “He who does right is righteous, as he [Christ] is righteous”. Certainly to believe in Christ is one act that leads to righteousness – but it is not the only one. The phrase “He who does right” implies our cooperation. The goats are condemned to hell because they did not do righteous acts or they are not unrighteous (1 Corinthians 6:9). They are not declared unrighteous but they are indeed unrighteous

So how come the goats went to hell? Did they use Christ’s righteousness to cover their unrighteous deeds? Is God blind?
 
Post #5: The doctrine of Purgatory is found in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins.”

So the Catholic Bible is replete with further evidence for Purgatory, here are a few:

1) Mt 12:32:
Our Blessed Lord Himself: “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” “The age to come’ means life after death, so Our Lord is clear – there ARE other sins that can be pardoned after death. We see also that the Lord knew that His Jewish listeners knew what He meant by forgiveness I the next life.

2) Then follows Mt 12:36: “on the day of judgment, men will render account for every careless word they utter.” “Careless words” don’t merit Hell, but there will be a penalty which takes place in the Purgatory assigned for that.

3) Mt 5:21-6: Christ warns of the coming judgment, and in His parable emphaises “put in prison….you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.” So paid here, or hereafter where the detention is temporary that can be neither heaven or hell – but Purgatory.

4) 2 Tim 1:16-18: St Paul prays for the house hold of his helper Onesiphorus, then for Onesiphorus himself: “may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day.”
Another example of purgatory in St Paul’s prayer for the dead.
 
There are lots of ways to picture Purgatory. Here’s one that may help your friend.

St. Macrina the Younger was from a family of saints and theologians, to the point that she and her younger brother discussed theology while she was on her deathbed, and this was some of what they talked about. She pointed out that God is a lot like “a consuming fire” (Deut. 4:24 and Hebr. 12:29 – that’s Biblical!).

So when a soul comes into God’s presence, it is surrounded by this burning love of His. Automatically, everything bad is burned away. Everything good is purified. “The fire will test everyone’s work.”

So those who are damned burn forever in Hell, those who are saints have the same burning love as God does and have nothing unhappy to suffer, but those who are “saved as through fire” have to take the rough bits of being purified before they too can be nothing but blissful, burning love.

It’s kind of a scary image, but it’s also very hopeful and encouraging. It’s like a big love poem.
 
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