Purgatory? How to respond to these arguments against it?

[holy_wood]

The kid basically said that the passage in Revelation referring to nothing unclean doesn’t refer to people due to the passage also referencing people immediately later.

He also said that the biblical passage 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 refers to the last judgment not the process of being cleansed of venial sins after death.

I never encountered them before. Sorry if the answer is super easy (just means you won’t spend much time out of your busy day answering it.)

Please can watch the video below.

youtube.com/watch?v=cuboKFnkfKg

 

[Trishie]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church
II. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439):d S 1304; Council of Trent (1563):dS 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336):dS 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274):dS 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5G 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.

 

[Trishie]

Perhaps these sites also may help

ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

 

[Australis]

I would have no problem with this if only Mary didn’t keep cropping up in Catholic prayers. I would feel much better praying directly to God. Can Catholics pray for the dead without going through Mary?

 

[aicirt]

The thought that went through my mind was when the young man was talking about the sleep we endure until the Final Judgement.

When the Good Thief praised Christ, Jesus told him that on that day he would be with Him in heaven. There is a judgement before the Final Judgement.

 

[JRKH]

I would have no problem with this if only Mary didn’t keep cropping up in Catholic prayers. I would feel much better praying directly to God. Can Catholics pray for the dead without going through Mary?

Absolutely YES!!!

In private, pray in the way most comfortable to you.
In public prayer accept that calling on Mary and the entire Church triumphant (saints) is part of the Love and Hope we have.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

The kid basically said that the passage in Revelation referring to nothing unclean doesn’t refer to people due to the passage also referencing people immediately later.

He also said that the biblical passage 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 refers to the last judgment not the process of being cleansed of venial sins after death.

I never encountered them before. Sorry if the answer is super easy (just means you won’t spend much time out of your busy day answering it.)

Please can watch the video below.

youtube.com/watch?v=cuboKFnkfKg

In the simplest language, I would say that both catholics and protestants believe in a “purification” (purgation) after death. The difference in how we understand and express it. Protestants see this as something “instantanious”, catholics express it as being something over a longer time frame. So both of these ideas are framed from our viewpoint of “Time” - something which does not effect God.
The idea of “Purgatory” (the place of purgation) comes out of this idea of a stopover place, or a transitional stage, between death and heaven.

Hope this helps.

Peace
James

 

[Carlan]

In the simplest language, I would say that both catholics and protestants believe in a “purification” (purgation) after death. The difference in how we understand and express it. Protestants see this as something “instantanious”, catholics express it as being something over a longer time frame. So both of these ideas are framed from our viewpoint of “Time” - something which does not effect God.
The idea of “Purgatory” (the place of purgation) comes out of this idea of a stopover place, or a transitional stage, between death and heaven.

Hope this helps.

Peace
James

James what do you think about the idea of the thought that it will be in the state of Purgatory that Christ’s desire for unity is finally brought about? The full Truth will be realised. Peace Carlan.

 

[MarcoPolo]

He also said that the biblical passage 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 refers to the last judgment not the process of being cleansed of venial sins after death.

The very metaphor at the heart of this passage is one of refinement and purification. You have precious metal along with “flammable” stuff like wood and straw passing through the fire. Only the pure metals survive passing through. This is analogous to Purgatory in which the imperfections are shed from us as we pass from death into heaven.

 

[JRKH]

James what do you think about the idea of the thought that it will be in the state of Purgatory that Christ’s desire for unity is finally brought about? The full Truth will be realised.
Peace Carlan.

Yes I agree that the individual will become fully unified with the Will of God in Perfect Love and Truth.

Peace
James

 

[aicirt]

Has anyone answered the kid in the video re. his thoughts on Purgatory? I think he needs to hear from a Catholic who can answer his questions.

 

[soren1]

The kid basically said that the passage in Revelation referring to nothing unclean doesn’t refer to people due to the passage also referencing people immediately later.

He also said that the biblical passage 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 refers to the last judgment not the process of being cleansed of venial sins after death.

I never encountered them before. Sorry if the answer is super easy (just means you won’t spend much time out of your busy day answering it.)

Please can watch the video below.

youtube.com/watch?v=cuboKFnkfKg

The passage for 1 Cor is best seen in connection with Isaiah 6. In this chapter, Isaiah is going to have a vision of the throne of God, but must first go through a fire purification, by having a coal placed on his tongue, because nothing unclean can enter the Lord’s presence. This helps show what the role the role of fire is, and also helps to convey to Protestants why Purgatory is not offensive to divine glory. They tend to dislike purgatory because it seems like a form of works-righteousness, which takes away from God. What you can see from Isaiah, however, is that purification like that of purgatory, honors God’s holiness, for it is because of the purity and perfection of God that Isaiah must undergo fire-cleansing. Here is the text:

And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!” Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. Is 6:5-6

 

[holy_wood]

How do you answer the charge that the 1 Cor verse is only speaking about the Last Judgment?

 

[MarcoPolo]

How do you answer the charge that the 1 Cor verse is only speaking about the Last Judgment?

St. Thomas Aquinas addressed this in his commentary on the passage. St. Thomas also believed this passage to be evidence of Purgatory incidentally.*For there will be a general judgment of all man, as it says in Matt (12:41): “The men of Nineveh will arise at the judgment.” In this sense the day of the Lord will be the last day—judgment day—alluded to in 2 Th (2:2): “Be not terrified as if the day of the Lord were at hand.” This is the interpretation of the statement that the day of the Lord shall disclose it, because on the day of judgment the differences among men’s merits will be disclosed: “On that day when God judges the secrets of men by Jesus Christ” (Rom 2:16).

Another is the particular judgment, which takes place for each person at his death. Lk (16:22) says of this judgment: “The rich man died and was buried in hell; and the poor man also died and was carried to Abraham’s bosom.” In this sense the day of the Lord refers to the day of death, as in 1 Th (5:2): “The day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.” The day of the Lord will disclose it at that time, because every man’s merits will be plain at his death. Hence it says in Pr (11:7): “When the wicked dies, his hope perishes” and in (14:32): “The righteous man has hope when he dies.” The third judgment takes place in this life, inasmuch as God sometimes proves a man by the tribulations of this life; hence it says below (11:32): “When we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world.” In this sense temporal tribulations are called the day of the Lord: “The sound of the day of the Lord is bitter, the mighty man cries aloud there” (Zeph 1:14). Therefore, the day of the Lord shall disclose, because during the time of tribulation a man’s affections are tested: “The kiln tests the potter’s vessels; so the trial of affliction just men” (Sir 27:5).*Because the passage speaks passing through a purifying fire prior to being “saved” I think the stronger interpretation, as St. Thomas would agree, is that this judgment is of the particular person prior to his receiving the beatific vision of heaven. There wouldn’t be impurities (i.e. wood, hay, straw) to be burned away between the beatific vision and the new heaven & earth because you can’t reach the beatific vision in the first place with stains on the soul. You can read the St. Thomas link above for even more details from him exegeting the whole passage.

 

[soren1]

How do you answer the charge that the 1 Cor verse is only speaking about the Last Judgment?

That depends on what the argument was. If it is just a bare assertion, I would simply respond that no one found righteous at the end of the world could “suffer loss” thereafter, since that would imply that they were still impure at that time, whereas Rev 22:11 says, “Let the evildoer still do evil, *and the filthy still be filthy, *and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.” This doesn’t leave room for any further purification, so if your works burn up at that time, they will stay burning for eternity. But then, depending on the argument, and the other person’s understanding of judgment, this might be a weak reply. I would need to know more about the other position, which could involve nuances I am not taking into account.