Purgatory is a lie, from my Protestant friend

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My Brothers and Sisters in Faith,

I have a protestant friend who commends Pope Francis on the following statement

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100116.htm

Basically that Purgatory is a process, not a place.

But my protestant friend then says that if that is the case, the Catholic church has been in error for thousands of years, teaching error. Or that it knew the truth, but willfully allowed its believers to burn in hell for such belief. And therefore it’s leaders were Angels of Satans for allowing such belief to occur among it’s believers.

I’m not the greatest apologist for the faith. Anyone want to take this one on?

Your Brother in Christ,
Big BC
 
Tell your friend he’s a pettifogger.

The CCC clearly states that purgatory is a process. Whether it involves a place (whatever that might mean in the afterlife) and / or time (whatever that might mean in the afterlife) is totally irrelevant.

I could point out a thousand similar “errors” in Christianity (does God really have a strong right arm, for instance, or will people burn in hell for reciting the psalms?). Tell him to breathe into a paper bag until he calms down.
 
Actually, I believe the quote from him was "“Or that if all these Popes knew the truth and hid it from the masses then they, in effect, promoted error, caused the protestant revolution, and caused many people to be burned at the stake for their belief that the Roman Catholic church was in error. And that is would be unreasonable to call men who would do that Christians, and that they would more likely be angels of Satan.”
 
Actually, I believe the quote from him was "“Or that if all these Popes knew the truth and hid it from the masses then they, in effect, promoted error, caused the protestant revolution, and caused many people to be burned at the stake for their belief that the Roman Catholic church was in error. And that is would be unreasonable to call men who would do that Christians, and that they would more likely be angels of Satan.”
So now that the Catholic Church is teaching his version of the truth, he’ll be entering the Catholic Church, right? 😃

Really, anybody who would leave the Church because it taught that purgatory was a place and not a process, was looking for an excuse to leave. We need to use words to try and approximate things we cannot understand. I think your friend is just engaging the common Protestant practice of avoiding an honest examination of his own choice to stay out of the Church.
 
My Brothers and Sisters in Faith,

I have a protestant friend who commends Pope Francis on the following statement

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100116.htm

Basically that Purgatory is a process, not a place.

But my protestant friend then says that if that is the case, the Catholic church has been in error for thousands of years, teaching error.
Got to love the hardcore P’s. From what I’m aware of the only things that are dogmatic about Purgatory is the belief that A.) no stain of sin can enter Heaven, therefore those saved souls that haven’t paid their temporal punishment for sin during their time on earth must do so before they can enter Heaven, and B.) that our prayers and good works can be offered up to God on their behalf to help them pay their debt.
Or that it knew the truth, but willfully allowed its believers to burn in hell for such belief. And therefore it’s leaders were Angels of Satans for allowing such belief to occur among it’s believers.
I would apply the same charge to your Protestant friend and ask if their reformed ways are the ways of the ancient Christians than why are there no blips in history before the reformation where the true Christians rose up against the heretic Catholics? Why were they silent for so long until after the invention of the printing press? Kind of hard to swallow that the great apostasy happened without generating one historical event or shred of proof of early Christians fighting the new evil Catholic sect. Are we to believe the early Christians went to bed good true reformation style Christians and woke up Mass attending, seven sacrament loving Catholics, overnight?
 
Great points. I will pass them on.

Here’s another one: “If it isn’t a place, then Catholics and Protestants are in agreement. What you call Purgatory, we call sanctification.”

And this one: “The church of Rome was built on indulgences and the protestant reformation may not have happened at all without this error. How evil would it be for Catholic church leaders to know that Purgatory was a state and not a place and yet refuse to make this know? How many lives would have been saved? And how many Catholics fell into even greater error because of this error?”

Sorry, not knowledgeable enough about church doctrinal development to answer him very effectively.
 
Great points. I will pass them on.

Here’s another one: “If it isn’t a place, then Catholics and Protestants are in agreement. What you call Purgatory, we call sanctification.”

And this one: “The church of Rome was built on indulgences and the protestant reformation may not have happened at all without this error. How evil would it be for Catholic church leaders to know that Purgatory was a state and not a place and yet refuse to make this know? How many lives would have been saved? And how many Catholics fell into even greater error because of this error?”

Sorry, not knowledgeable enough about church doctrinal development to answer him very effectively.
He’s splitting hairs. Purgatory is a state of being, but that doesn’t change the Church’s teachings on indulgences.
 
Great points. I will pass them on.

Here’s another one: “If it isn’t a place, then Catholics and Protestants are in agreement. What you call Purgatory, we call sanctification.”
This doesn’t help because how would your friend know what all Protestants believe? There is more than one Protestant denomination and all of them believe different things, especially regarding sanctification.
And this one: "The church of Rome was built on indulgences and the protestant reformation may not have happened at all without this error.
This is untrue since while Protestants want to use the selling of indulgences as their excuse to reform the Church, their very reformation shows they wanted to start a new Church and not reform the one they were apart of; which was and still is the Catholic Church. If the selling of indulgences were all they had a problem with than what happened to the seven sacraments? The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist?, Confession? etc? No I’m sorry their actions where clear they didn’t want to reform their present Church, but start a new one.
How evil would it be for Catholic church leaders to know that Purgatory was a state and not a place and yet refuse to make this know? How many lives would have been saved? And how many Catholics fell into even greater error because of this error?"
Evil, if that was the case, which it was not. Once again the only things that have been dogmatic about purgatory are the two things listed above. Whether Purgatory is a place or a process hasn’t been defined from what I know, therefore indulgences are still valid belief that we can do things to help pay for our temporal debt owed to sin. The better question is why would it matter if purgatory is a place or a process?
 
My Brothers and Sisters in Faith,

I have a protestant friend who commends Pope Francis on the following statement

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100116.htm

Basically that Purgatory is a process, not a place.

But my protestant friend then says that if that is the case, the Catholic church has been in error for thousands of years, teaching error. Or that it knew the truth, but willfully allowed its believers to burn in hell for such belief. And therefore it’s leaders were Angels of Satans for allowing such belief to occur among it’s believers.

I’m not the greatest apologist for the faith. Anyone want to take this one on?

Your Brother in Christ,
Big BC
Protestantism in and of itself is a man made heresy. Your friend has no room to speak of error when his entire faith is based on a lie.
 
Are heaven or hell places? If so, purgatory is a place. For when ‘in’ purgatory you are on the way to heaven. But if you are a spirit, you have no physical existence and so are not ‘in’ a place. Neither heaven hell nor purgatory.

But to make it easier on our brain we speak of these 3 states as if they were places. But, if you are a philosopher, you may want to regard them as 3 states and avoid place altogether.
 
My Brothers and Sisters in Faith,

I have a protestant friend who commends Pope Francis on the following statement

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1100116.htm

Basically that Purgatory is a process, not a place.

But my protestant friend then says that if that is the case, the Catholic church has been in error for thousands of years, teaching error. Or that it knew the truth, but willfully allowed its believers to burn in hell for such belief. And therefore it’s leaders were Angels of Satans for allowing such belief to occur among it’s believers.

I’m not the greatest apologist for the faith. Anyone want to take this one on?

Your Brother in Christ,
Big BC
So it is a lie because it is a process? Well for many Christians, our salvation is also a life long process. Is that a lie too?
 
Before He was done even forming the Catholic Church, Jesus Christ, its HEAD had THIS to say regarding Judgement … and a place of Justice from which one would “not be released” UNTIL “the last penny was paid.”
Matthew 5:25 Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.
This is also reiterated in Luke 12.
Luke 12:58 If you are to go with your opponent before a magistrate, make an effort to settle the matter on the way; otherwise your opponent will turn you over to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the constable, and the constable throw you into prison.
59 I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."
Temporary punishment unto justice is found elsewhere in scripture:
Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord’s rejection does not last forever;
32 Though he punishes, he takes pity, in the abundance of his mercies;
33 He has no joy in afflicting or grieving the sons of men.
Also … not all sin “is deadly sin” …
**1 John 5:16 ** If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
Some die in the state of being in sins that are “not deadly.” YET nothing unclean can enter heaven.
Revelation 21:27 but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
So there is a purging. Regarding unclean lips, for instance, consider how the prophet of Isaiah felt upon finding himself in heaven, despite his self-confessed sinful condition:
Isaiah 6:1 In the year King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a high and lofty throne, with the train of his garment filling the temple.
2 Seraphim were stationed above; each of them had six wings: with two they veiled their faces, with two they veiled their feet, and with two they hovered aloft.
3 “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts!” they cried one to the other. “All the earth is filled with his glory!”
4 At the sound of that cry, the frame of the door shook and the house was filled with smoke.
5 Then I said, “Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar.
7 He touched my mouth with it. “See,” he said, “now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged.”
PURGED or made clean is the root word for “Purgatory” a time or place where sins are purged (made clean). Isaiah here WAS “in heaven” but his spirit is horrified, woeful, unhappy, and IS dirty. He “is suffering”! After the purging, he feels more at home and when God asks “whom shall I send” he feels free to have a relationship with God unselfconsciously and cries “Here I am, send me!”

And this scripture agrees with **the time or place **described in
1 Corinthians 3:13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work.
14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15 But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the ***person will be saved, but only as through fire.

And in speaking about the seriousness of sin and how it is better to cut off a hand or an eye that would lead one to sin – than to NOT purge oneself from that which leads one into sin and be cast into Gehenna (hell) where the fires dies not … Jesus then adds:
Mark 9:12 "Everyone will be salted with fire.
Some fires as we have seen are purging fires - meant to remove impurities (non-deadly sins) that are like dross and don’t belong as part of the pure soul. Jesus’ coming to earth was predicted many times in many ways … but in this following one He is compared to a refiner who separates the dross from the silver. When silver is pure it reflects the image of the purifier clearly without flaws or dross distorting the image.
Malachi 3:2 But who will endure the day of his coming? And who can stand when he appears? For he is like the*** refiner’s fire,*** or like the fuller’s lye.
3 He will sit refining and purifying (silver), and he will purify the sons of Levi, Refining them like gold or like silver that they may offer due sacrifice to the LORD.
The word purgatory may not be in the Bible. But the concept runs through it and is emphasized in all of the aspects the Church teaches about it. Including praying for the poor souls there. The Church does not recommend Purgatory as a destination. And there will come a time when it ceases to be. Even then it will not have been “a lie” nor an invention of the Church.

And its interesting that (despite the “no purgatory!” doctrines some have) Protestants often will join in the praying for the repose of a soul, or say words and prayers over a gravesite.
 
I’m Big BC’s friend.

The problem is that either the RC Church purposefully let the error of purgatory being a place (which resulted in indulgences and the split of the church, which is hardly “irrelevant”) exist for a thousand of years, and is an action that no right Christian would do for even a year, never the less a thousand years, or…Pope Benedict’s teaching is a new teaching and not a clarification. And if it is a new teaching, than the RC belief of Papal infallibility is proven incorrect.

Please, in your responses, try and address the topic in a civil manner worthy of a Christian and stay away from “I am not, you are” responses. Many of the responses so far are actually non-responses looking for an excuse to attack Protestantism.
 
CaptFun, you’re on the wrong thread. No one is debating purgatory.
 
I’m Big BC’s friend.

The problem is that either the RC Church purposefully let the error of purgatory being a place (which resulted in indulgences and the split of the church, which is hardly “irrelevant”) exist for a thousand of years, and is an action that no right Christian would do for even a year, never the less a thousand years, or…Pope Benedict’s teaching is a new teaching and not a clarification. And if it is a new teaching, than the RC belief of Papal infallibility is proven incorrect.

Please, in your responses, try and address the topic in a civil manner worthy of a Christian and stay away from “I am not, you are” responses. Many of the responses so far are actually non-responses looking for an excuse to attack Protestantism.
If your issue is actually with the concept of purgatory being a physical place, and not with the concept of a posthumous state of purification itself, then I fail to see how you attribute the doctrine of indulgences to such, since indulgences still follow from the idea that purgatory is merely a state of being.
 
I’m Big BC’s friend.
Welcome to Catholic Answers forums.
The problem is that either the RC Church purposefully let the error of purgatory being a place (which resulted in indulgences and the split of the church, which is hardly “irrelevant”) exist for a thousand of years, and is an action that no right Christian would do for even a year, never the less a thousand years
  1. Indulgences are still a part of the Church. They still help people get through purgatory.
  2. The theory that purgatory is a process is very ancient. Pope Benedict did not invent it, he just repeated one theory that he happens to agree with, and which is perfectly compatible with the doctrine of purgatory.
  3. I think you’re under the impression that purgatory being a process somehow means it takes place in this life rather than the next life. (Maybe you’re not under that impression. But it appears that way to me.) If you are, that’s not what the pope said. Purgatory, from a doctrinal perspective, is still a temporary state of suffering in the afterlife due to one’s sins in this life, and that is true whether you think it is a process or a place. It still takes place in the next life, which is the sore point that Protestants usually get all mad over.
 
I’m Big BC’s friend.

The problem is that either the RC Church purposefully let the error of purgatory being a place (which resulted in indulgences and the split of the church, which is hardly “irrelevant”) exist for a thousand of years, and is an action that no right Christian would do for even a year, never the less a thousand years, or…Pope Benedict’s teaching is a new teaching and not a clarification. And if it is a new teaching, than the RC belief of Papal infallibility is proven incorrect.

Please, in your responses, try and address the topic in a civil manner worthy of a Christian and stay away from “I am not, you are” responses. Many of the responses so far are actually non-responses looking for an excuse to attack Protestantism.
It doesn’t make any difference. What is a “place” in the afterlife? Is heaven a “place”? How much room does a spirit (the human soul) require? Where does the human soul “reside” while the process of purification is happening? Nowhere? Somewhere (some “place”)? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

This is all straining at gnats, and is most certainly not the true cause of the Protestant Reformation. As was insightfully pointed out, if that was the problem, then Protestantism would look exactly like Catholicism looked in the 16th century with a few minor changes, and would look even more like Catholicism looks today, after the reforms of Trent et al. Protestantism would be no more different from Catholicism than Eastern Orthodoxy is from Catholicism, which is to say, not very.

No, the Protestant Reformation was an explosion of heresy, and the heresies continue to multiply to this day.
 
Hi I just saw that this thread is about Purgatory and wanted to add in case you didn’t know you can ask God to do your Purgatory on earth that is what I did. It’s better to do it on earth than the sufferings in Purgatory where you cannot pray 🙂
 
I’m Big BC’s friend.

The problem is that either the RC Church purposefully let the error of purgatory being a place (which resulted in indulgences and the split of the church, which is hardly “irrelevant”) exist for a thousand of years, and is an action that no right Christian would do for even a year, never the less a thousand years, or…Pope Benedict’s teaching is a new teaching and not a clarification. And if it is a new teaching, than the RC belief of Papal infallibility is proven incorrect.

Please, in your responses, try and address the topic in a civil manner worthy of a Christian and stay away from “I am not, you are” responses. Many of the responses so far are actually non-responses looking for an excuse to attack Protestantism.
Can you please cite the pertinent Catholic doctrine you are referring to regarding Purgatory? This will help us see whether the historical doctrine is different than the current one.

Can you also explain why it is that you believe that a general audience of the Pope would represent a new teaching that would fall under the category of Papal Infallibility?
 
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