Purgatory is a part of hell?

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St. Thomas Aquinas

It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place.
 
Do you recall if it also covers the possibility of one offering their sufferings while here on this earth thereby suffering their purgatory, or part of it, before they die?
Yes absolutely!!! In fact one of the mystics agreed to suffer and did so terribly for 3 hours at the end of those 3 hours which she suffered willingly for a soul in purgatory the soul came to her and said that the effect was such that it was the same as taking 20 years off her suffering in purgatory.

The mystic exclaimed how is it possible that 3 hours of my limited and easy suffering can take away 20 years of the most extreme and unimaginable suffering. The soul replied, because you did so willingly, you did so with love and compassion. You were moved by mercy which is most pleasing to God (btw I don’t remember the exact quotes so realize that I’m telling you basically what I remember, if you find the story and the numbers are a little off of the words are a little different it’s the same thing, just my mistake).

Now I say that with some reservation!!! Why, because we as people tend to get caught up with the, oh if I suffer for a couple hours I can wipe away my loved ones time in purgatory. Or if I say certain prayers and obtain so many indulgences my or their time in purgatory will be null and void. It doesn’t exactly work like that. Just realize that you can help, you can help a great deal, do everything with love and mercy for the poor souls and you will help them. God allows so much more than you can imagine.

Another word of caution, DONT STOP!!! We are told that many souls are abandoned and left with no relief because their family’s and loved ones think “oh they must be in heaven by now”. There are recorded times where we have been told that the time to be spent in purgatory would equal several hundred years here on earth, and another instance where it was said that the soul would stay in purgatory until the end of time.

A final thought, time doesn’t work the same in purgatory as here on earth. So for example a priest who had been suffering a lot was given the choice to suffer in his current state for the next 3 years or so when he would finally die and then be brought straight to heaven or go to purgatory for one day. He of course chose purgatory for one day, I mean one day of suffering or 3 years!!! God accepted and he was sent to purgatory, after a little while his angel came to visit him and asked how he was doing, to which he replied, “you lied to me, you said I would be here for one day, however it has been at least many months, the angel turned and said to him, no, it has barely been an hour since you got here.”

Time does not work the same in purgatory, imagine you grab a hot stove, seconds turn into hours as you try to make the pain go away. Such is the torments of purgatory but to an even more extreme. Friends, brothers and sisters, I hear often “so I guess I’ll have to spend a little time in purgatory”, you don’t know what you are signing yourself up for.

Yet the easiest way to avoid purgatory is by praying for those in purgatory! Pray, have masses said, visit cemetery’s (especially sprinkle holy water on the graves) fast, do anything and everything no matter how small and trivial for the Holy Souls in Purgatory and God will remember your mercy!!!

Help those in purgatory and also help yourselves!!!
 
CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

catholic.com/qa/is-purgatory-like-hell

catholic.com/tract/purgatory

catholic.com/encyclopedia/purgatory
 
Do you recall if it also covers the possibility of one offering their sufferings while here on this earth thereby suffering their purgatory, or part of it, before they die?
I just reread this and realized I took the answer in the wrong direction, but anyway, yes I have read that it is possible to offer your sufferings on earth and have some or possibly all of you purification in Purgatory remitted. I cannot think of any stories about the actual occurance because it would seem that those who have their sufferings canceled have not come to the saints and mystics in either need of help or to teach them about Purgatory.

Short answer, yes I have heard it is possible, and No, I have no examples, quotes or stories to draw from.
 
Does anybody know of Catholic mystics who speak more specifically about this?.
T H E

S E C O N D

K I N G D O M

From the Mystical Revelations of Maria Valtorta

The Purifying Flames

JESUS :

"I want to explain to you what Purgatory is and in what it consists. And I explain it Myself, with a form that will clash with so many who believe themselves to be trustees of knowledge of the Beyond — and are not.

The souls immersed in those flames suffer only from love.

Not undeserving of possessing the Light, but not yet worthy of entering immediately into that Kingdom of Light, these souls, upon presenting themselves to God, become clothed with the Light. It is a brief, anticipated bliss, which makes them certain of their salvation, and makes known to them what their eternity will be. It makes them experience what they had committed toward their soul; thus defrauding it of years of the blessed possession of God. Immersed thereafter in the Place of Purgation, they are clothed with the expiatory flames.

In this matter, those who talk of ‘Purgatory’ speak rightly. But where they are not right is in wanting to apply various names to those flames.

These flames are a conflagration of Love. They purify by enkindling souls with love. They give Love because, when the soul has reached in them that love which it did not reach on earth, it is liberated and joined to Love in Heaven.

This seems to you a different doctrine than what is known — true? But reflect.

What does God, One and Triune, want for the souls created by Him? The Good.

He Who wants the Good for a creature, what sentiments does He have for that creature? Sentiments of Love.

What are the first and the second commandments, the two most important? Those of which I have said there are no greater, and in which are the keys for reaching Eternal Life? They are a commandment of love: ‘Love God with all your strength, love your neighbor as yourself.’

Through My own mouth and by the prophets and the saints, what have I said to you an infinite number of times? That Charity is the greatest of absolutions. Charity consumes the faults and the weaknesses of man, because he who loves lives in God, and by living in God he sins little; and if he sins he at once repents, and for him who is repentant there is the forgiveness of the Most High.

What is lacking to souls? Love. If they had loved much, they would have committed few and light sins, connected with your weakness and imperfections. But they would never have reached a conscious obstinacy in faults, even venial ones. If they would have striven not to grieve their Love, Love also, seeing their good will, would have absolved them even of the venial transgressions they committed.

How does one repair, even on earth, a fault? By expiating it — even if only with difficulty — through the means with which it was committed. He who has damaged something, by restoring whatever he has taken away with his insolence. He who has calumniated, by retracting the calumny, and so on.

Now: if poor human justice wants this, will not the holy Justice of God want it? And what means will God use to obtain reparation? Himself, that is, Love, and by exacting love.

All pivots on love, Maria, except for the truly ‘dead’: the damned. For these ‘dead,’ even Love is dead. But for the three Kingdoms — that of the heaviest: the Earth; that in which the weight of matter is abolished, but not of the soul burdened by sin: Purgatory; and finally that in which its inhabitants share with their Father the spiritual nature which frees them from every duty — for all three the motor is Love. It is by loving on earth that you work for Heaven. It is by loving in Purgatory that you conquer Heaven which in life you had not known how to merit. It is by loving in Paradise that you enjoy Heaven.

When a soul is in Purgatory it does not do anything but love, reflect, repent in the light of Love which has kindled for it these flames — which already are God, but which hide God from it for its punishment.

Behold the torment. The soul remembers the vision of God it had in its particular judgment. That memory is carried with it and, since to have even but glimpsed God is a joy which surpasses every created thing, the soul thus has anxiety to enjoy again that joy. That memory of God and that ray of light which had clothed it at its appearing before God, thus cause the soul to ‘see’ in their true essence the failures committed against its Good. And this ‘seeing,’ together with the thought that it has voluntarily forbidden itself the possession of Heaven and union with God for ages or centuries, constitute its purgative pain.

It is love, and the certainty of having offended Love, which is the torment of those being purged. The more a soul in life has failed, the more it is as if blinded by spiritual cataracts which make more difficult its knowing and reaching that perfect repentance of love which is the first collaboration with its purgation and its entrance into the Kingdom of God.

Love is weighed down and slowed down the more a soul has oppressed it with guilt. But as the power of Love cleanses it little by little, its resurrection to love is quickened and, in consequence, so is its conquest of Love — which is completed in the moment in which, having finished its expiation and reached the perfection of love, it is admitted into the City of God.

bardstown.com/~brchrys/
 
Techno2000,

This seems nice, and I would never argue with a Saint or mystic because it could end up being that I’m arguing with God Himself, but due to my lack of knowledge in this area here then is the question.

Why the contradiction? Why do most saints and mystics tell us one thing, one thing that is constant throughout the history of the Church and the Bible, but this mystic tells us something different?

Another question, now that this information is out there, should I stop praying for the dead? Shall I save my money and not offer masses, quit fasting because what’s the point? See what this revelation does is it gives people a feeling that purgatory isn’t really bad, no worries, and also don’t worry about the souls that may have to go there, they are just fine.

Again, I am in no way qualified to judge any of the revelations from the Saint and the mystics, but I’m gonna keep on keeping on. Because the Church and the Bible tells me one thing, and that lines up, in my mind, more closely with the vast majority of Saints and mystics that have spoken on the subject.

I sincerely hope that this mystic, Maria Valtorta, is absolutely correct, but in case the other 98% are right, I suggest that we continue to pray, offer masses, fast, visit cemeteries, and do all the things that Catholics should do for the dead.

Finally it is given to us from the Church that one of the works of mercy is to pray for the dead, so if you do nothing else pray! Pray!!! Then hope and have faith in God…
 
T H E

S E C O N D

K I N G D O M

From the Mystical Revelations of Maria Valtorta

The Purifying Flames

JESUS :

"I want to explain to you what Purgatory is and in what it consists. And I explain it Myself, with a form that will clash with so many who believe themselves to be trustees of knowledge of the Beyond — and are not.

The souls immersed in those flames suffer only from love.

Not undeserving of possessing the Light, but not yet worthy of entering immediately into that Kingdom of Light, these souls, upon presenting themselves to God, become clothed with the Light. It is a brief, anticipated bliss, which makes them certain of their salvation, and makes known to them what their eternity will be. It makes them experience what they had committed toward their soul; thus defrauding it of years of the blessed possession of God. Immersed thereafter in the Place of Purgation, they are clothed with the expiatory flames.

In this matter, those who talk of ‘Purgatory’ speak rightly. But where they are not right is in wanting to apply various names to those flames.

These flames are a conflagration of Love. They purify by enkindling souls with love. They give Love because, when the soul has reached in them that love which it did not reach on earth, it is liberated and joined to Love in Heaven.

This seems to you a different doctrine than what is known — true? But reflect.

What does God, One and Triune, want for the souls created by Him? The Good.

He Who wants the Good for a creature, what sentiments does He have for that creature? Sentiments of Love.

What are the first and the second commandments, the two most important? Those of which I have said there are no greater, and in which are the keys for reaching Eternal Life? They are a commandment of love: ‘Love God with all your strength, love your neighbor as yourself.’

Through My own mouth and by the prophets and the saints, what have I said to you an infinite number of times? That Charity is the greatest of absolutions. Charity consumes the faults and the weaknesses of man, because he who loves lives in God, and by living in God he sins little; and if he sins he at once repents, and for him who is repentant there is the forgiveness of the Most High.

What is lacking to souls? Love. If they had loved much, they would have committed few and light sins, connected with your weakness and imperfections. But they would never have reached a conscious obstinacy in faults, even venial ones. If they would have striven not to grieve their Love, Love also, seeing their good will, would have absolved them even of the venial transgressions they committed.

How does one repair, even on earth, a fault? By expiating it — even if only with difficulty — through the means with which it was committed. He who has damaged something, by restoring whatever he has taken away with his insolence. He who has calumniated, by retracting the calumny, and so on.

Now: if poor human justice wants this, will not the holy Justice of God want it? And what means will God use to obtain reparation? Himself, that is, Love, and by exacting love.

All pivots on love, Maria, except for the truly ‘dead’: the damned. For these ‘dead,’ even Love is dead. But for the three Kingdoms — that of the heaviest: the Earth; that in which the weight of matter is abolished, but not of the soul burdened by sin: Purgatory; and finally that in which its inhabitants share with their Father the spiritual nature which frees them from every duty — for all three the motor is Love. It is by loving on earth that you work for Heaven. It is by loving in Purgatory that you conquer Heaven which in life you had not known how to merit. It is by loving in Paradise that you enjoy Heaven.

When a soul is in Purgatory it does not do anything but love, reflect, repent in the light of Love which has kindled for it these flames — which already are God, but which hide God from it for its punishment.

Behold the torment. The soul remembers the vision of God it had in its particular judgment. That memory is carried with it and, since to have even but glimpsed God is a joy which surpasses every created thing, the soul thus has anxiety to enjoy again that joy. That memory of God and that ray of light which had clothed it at its appearing before God, thus cause the soul to ‘see’ in their true essence the failures committed against its Good. And this ‘seeing,’ together with the thought that it has voluntarily forbidden itself the possession of Heaven and union with God for ages or centuries, constitute its purgative pain.

It is love, and the certainty of having offended Love, which is the torment of those being purged. The more a soul in life has failed, the more it is as if blinded by spiritual cataracts which make more difficult its knowing and reaching that perfect repentance of love which is the first collaboration with its purgation and its entrance into the Kingdom of God.

Love is weighed down and slowed down the more a soul has oppressed it with guilt. But as the power of Love cleanses it little by little, its resurrection to love is quickened and, in consequence, so is its conquest of Love — which is completed in the moment in which, having finished its expiation and reached the perfection of love, it is admitted into the City of God.

bardstown.com/~brchrys/
The writings of Maria Valtorta (The Poem of the Man God) was on the Index of Forbidden Books. Despite the Index being scrapped Pope Benedict (while Cardinal Ratzinger) said that does not mean the books that were on it may now be read. His exact words were “The Index retains its moral force despite its dissolution.”
 
I have done quite a bit of studying on purgatory and from what I have read purgatory is basically (if you want to put it in dimensional terms) right above hell. In fact some of the Saints and mystics tell us that the fires of purgatory are the same as those of hell, that they are fueled by the fires of hell, but that of course is in the lowest parts of purgatory, and the only difference is that in purgatory there is light, the light of salvation, of the knowledge that the beautific vision awaits, while in hell there is nothing but darkness and despair.

So purgatory is broken down into sections with the lowest part being of course the most dreadful and the highest being that basically the only thing you suffer is the lack of the beautific vision. Don’t get me wrong I say “only” but from the mystics to the saints we are told that the worst part of purgatory is the seperation from God, it is a pain that is indescribable.

Now we are also told that the souls there refuse to leave purgatory until their sins have been completely expiated. In fact one of the mystics told it like this that the souls in heaven and God Himself would allow souls into heaven saying "don’t worry we are compassionate, merciful and loving. No one will say anything about the stench filled or muddy soul that you have, but the soul itself refuses to come into the presence of God until God has allowed it to be properly prepared.

The pains of purgatory are of course in line with the sins committed, thirst, hunger, the torture of the tongue, are a few of what is mentioned, but one thing that I found interesting was the description that there were basically two sides of a certain part of purgatory, one was the fires and the other was an equally indescribable cold or ice. That the souls suffering there would hurl themselves from the fire to the ice hoping for relief, but finding none. The only relief comes from our prayers, masses said, and when the Blessed Mother is in purgatory. Many saints and angels visit purgatory including St Michael and St Joseph and yet the pain continues, however when the Blessed Mother enters there is no pain anywhere for any soul.

Anyway, I could go on and on but there are many more well qualified and more knowledgeable authors out there. The first book that got me interested and really into studying purgatory is called “The Dogma of Purgatory”. I suggest it, but I warn you, it is not an easy read, it is not a light read, and it is an emotional read. Once read you will want to know more, you will study purgatory throughly and you will end up spending or wanting to spend a lot more money on masses and time in prayer for the Holy Souls in Purgatory.
I also read that the very flames of hell and Purgatory are fueled by God’s love.

Difference is, the holy souls in Purgatory are cleansed and purified by it and the damned souls in hell are tortured by it.
 
Techno2000,

This seems nice, and I would never argue with a Saint or mystic because it could end up being that I’m arguing with God Himself, but due to my lack of knowledge in this area here then is the question.

Why the contradiction? Why do most saints and mystics tell us one thing, one thing that is constant throughout the history of the Church and the Bible, but this mystic tells us something different?

Another question, now that this information is out there, should I stop praying for the dead? Shall I save my money and not offer masses, quit fasting because what’s the point? See what this revelation does is it gives people a feeling that purgatory isn’t really bad, no worries, and also don’t worry about the souls that may have to go there, they are just fine.

Again, I am in no way qualified to judge any of the revelations from the Saint and the mystics, but I’m gonna keep on keeping on. Because the Church and the Bible tells me one thing, and that lines up, in my mind, more closely with the vast majority of Saints and mystics that have spoken on the subject.

I sincerely hope that this mystic, Maria Valtorta, is absolutely correct, but in case the other 98% are right, I suggest that we continue to pray, offer masses, fast, visit cemeteries, and do all the things that Catholics should do for the dead.

Finally it is given to us from the Church that one of the works of mercy is to pray for the dead, so if you do nothing else pray! Pray!!! Then hope and have faith in God…
St Catherine of Genoa

TREATISE ON PURGATORY

This holy soul, while still in the flesh, was placed in the purgatory of the burning love of God, in whose flames she was purified from every stain, so that when she passed from this life she might be ready to enter the presence of God, her most sweet love.

By means of that flame of love she comprehended in her own soul the condition of the souls of the faithful in purgatory, where they are purified from the rust and stain of sins, from which they have not been cleansed in this world.

catholictreasury.info/books/treatise_on_purgatory/
 
It,s a place were you go too, tell the Angels come to bring you too Heaven ,it,s a place were people suffer for little time,that,s why we pray for the Soul,s ,in Purgatory,so that God well let them, in to his Kingdom. AMEN :heaven:
 
St Catherine of Genoa

TREATISE ON PURGATORY

This holy soul, while still in the flesh, was placed in the purgatory of the burning love of God, in whose flames she was purified from every stain, so that when she passed from this life she might be ready to enter the presence of God, her most sweet love.

By means of that flame of love she comprehended in her own soul the condition of the souls of the faithful in purgatory, where they are purified from the rust and stain of sins, from which they have not been cleansed in this world.

catholictreasury.info/books/treatise_on_purgatory/
St Faustina, direct quote from Jesus talking about the Divine Mercy Novena, this is what is to be prayed on the eighth day…

Eighth Day
“Today bring to Me the Souls who are in the prison of Purgatory, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice.”
 
This might be entirely academic/semantic, but I just assumed that since those who are undergoing purgation are infallibly saved, that Purgatory was in some way part of the blessed in Heaven. I read that the mystical body of “the Church” consists of its militant on Earth, the souls in Purgatory, and the saints.

Does tradition or Tradition talk about this?
To further answer your main question yes there are three parts of the Church according to Tradition. The Church Militant (us on earth), the Church Suffering (Purgatory), and the Church Rejoicing (Heaven). Hell is seperate as it is not part of the Church…
 
St Catherine of Genoa

TREATISE ON PURGATORY

This holy soul, while still in the flesh, was placed in the purgatory of the burning love of God, in whose flames she was purified from every stain, so that when she passed from this life she might be ready to enter the presence of God, her most sweet love.

By means of that flame of love she comprehended in her own soul the condition of the souls of the faithful in purgatory, where they are purified from the rust and stain of sins, from which they have not been cleansed in this world.

catholictreasury.info/books/treatise_on_purgatory/
I have noticed from other threads that you appear to place more focus and importance on private revelations or writings of saints than what the Church teaches. Neither private revelations nor saints writings are Church doctrine.
 
I have noticed from other threads that you appear to place more focus and importance on private revelations or writings of saints than what the Church teaches. Neither private revelations nor saints writings are Church doctrine.
I use private revelations to give me a better understanding of Church doctrine, which it always has… does this bother you ?
 
I use private revelations to give me a better understanding of Church doctrine, which it always has… does this bother you ?
My impression is that you place more emphasis on private revelations and writings than on actual Church doctrine.

Look at Maria Valtorta. You quote her when her books are actually condemned by the Church. At least you could quote from “approved” revelations.
 
I use private revelations to give me a better understanding of Church doctrine, which it always has… does this bother you ?
My impression is that you place more emphasis on private revelations and writings than on actual Church doctrine.

Look at Maria Valtorta. You quote her when her books are actually condemned by the Church. At least you could quote from “approved” revelations/writings.
 
This might be entirely academic/semantic, but I just assumed that since those who are undergoing purgation are infallibly saved, that Purgatory was in some way part of the blessed in Heaven. I read that the mystical body of “the Church” consists of its militant on Earth, the souls in Purgatory, and the saints.

Does tradition or Tradition talk about this?
TRadition

And Purgatory is NOT “a part of hell”

While the suffering may be similar; there is a critically important difference; Hell’s primary suffering is the sense of despair at the knowledge of the LOSS of the Beatific Vision; while Souls in Purgatory have assured HOPE of attaining same.
 
My impression is that you place more emphasis on private revelations and writings than on actual Church doctrine.

Look at Maria Valtorta. You quote her when her books are actually condemned by the Church. At least you could quote from “approved” revelations/writings.
The Index of Forbidden Books has been abolished.

“Publish this work just as it is. There is no need to give an opinion as to
whether it is of supernatural origin. Those who read it will understand.”
— Pope Pius XII on February 26, 1948
 
The Index of Forbidden Books has been abolished.

“Publish this work just as it is. There is no need to give an opinion as to
whether it is of supernatural origin. Those who read it will understand.”
— Pope Pius XII on February 26, 1948
Either you did not read or you ignored my earlier post.

Pope Benedict, while Cardinal Ratzinger, was asked specifically if we could read The Poem of the man God as the Index had been abolished.

His response to that question:

"THE INDEX RETAINS ITS MORAL FORCE DESPITE ITS DISSOLUTION."
 
Either you did not read or you ignored my earlier post.

Pope Benedict, while Cardinal Ratzinger, was asked specifically if we could read The Poem of the man God as the Index had been abolished.

His response to that question:

"THE INDEX RETAINS ITS MORAL FORCE DESPITE ITS DISSOLUTION."
THE CHURCH

AND

MARIA VALTORTA’S

THE POEM OF THE MAN–GOD

As stated in the Introductory Note, a recent concern to some readers of Valtorta’s Poem of the Man God, is a letter dated January 31, 1985, from Cardinal Ratzinger of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, to Cardinal Siri, Archbishop of Genoa, in response to an inquiry from a priest of that diocese on the Church’s position relative to Valtorta’s Work. In that response, Cardinal Ratzinger states that in 1959, the Work had been placed on the Index.** But it should be recalled that this censure applied to the 1st Edition (1956-1959), which appeared as an anonymous Work, and without any theological annotations to clarify some ambiguous passages. **The 2nd Edition, upon which the English translation is based, amended these defects and so was approved for publication in 1962, by Commissioner of the Holy Office, Fr. Giraudo, O.P. Thus the original ecclesiastical censure of The Poem was withdrawn.
bardstown.com/~brchrys/Chrchval.html
 
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