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Sir_Knight
Guest
Maybe it was St. Faustina. I’ll try to find the exact quote from her book.
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S
SHW
Guest
Every single sin that a person commits affects the world. The consequences of one sin can go on and on and on.
So, if you convince someone to sin with you, then you will have to pay the penalty owed for convincing that person to sin along with you. If he then sins this sin which he learned from you with someone else, then you accumulate a debt that must be paid for this next sin also. It has a ripple effect.
Take gossip for example: You tell a “false” story about a “friend” (or else an “unnecessary” story) which damages this “friend’s” reputation to another mutual “friend.” This mutual “friend” spreads this story to another and on and on it goes. You cannot stop the sin from spreading to others once you put it into motion. So, now you have sin upon sin heaped upon your soul and you must pay the debt owed for all of these sins. This is why the untamed tongue is so dangerous to our souls. James 3:1-13
James 1:26
If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless.
This is just one example of the ripple effects of sin.
St. Aquinas:
However, if you had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with a person’s damnation and therefore have no sin debt attached to you which must be paid by you for his damnation, then you will have a malicious desire to see this person suffer the pains of hell.
So, if you convince someone to sin with you, then you will have to pay the penalty owed for convincing that person to sin along with you. If he then sins this sin which he learned from you with someone else, then you accumulate a debt that must be paid for this next sin also. It has a ripple effect.
Take gossip for example: You tell a “false” story about a “friend” (or else an “unnecessary” story) which damages this “friend’s” reputation to another mutual “friend.” This mutual “friend” spreads this story to another and on and on it goes. You cannot stop the sin from spreading to others once you put it into motion. So, now you have sin upon sin heaped upon your soul and you must pay the debt owed for all of these sins. This is why the untamed tongue is so dangerous to our souls. James 3:1-13
James 1:26
If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless.
This is just one example of the ripple effects of sin.
St. Aquinas:
- Repentance in the true meaning of that word, is a hatred of sin as such. There is no repentance of this kind in hell. But if repentance be taken to mean merely the regret that sin causes suffering, and hatred of sin merely as the cause of suffering, then we can say that there is repentance in hell.
- The condemned in hell cannot wish to be annihilated, for this wish is in conflict with the nature of every being. But doubtless the damned wish for some kind of sleep or death or extinction of consciousness that would bring surcease of suffering.
- As in heaven there is perfect charity, and happiness in the fact of each soul’s being saved, so in hell there is perfect hatred and envy, and malicious desire to see others suffer the pains of hell.
So, you do not desire the damnation of persons who will cause you more suffering by their own damnation because you are the one who convinced them to sin in the first place. If they are damned, then you will suffer more consequences. But, if they repent and cease their sin which you initiated with them, then your suffering will be lessened in hell. Their sin debt will cease accumulating to your own sin debt and as a result, your own suffering will lessen in hell.
- The damned hate God (not in himself, for this is impossible) in the effects of his justice which they have perversely brought upon themselves. jesus-passion.com/HELL.htm
However, if you had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with a person’s damnation and therefore have no sin debt attached to you which must be paid by you for his damnation, then you will have a malicious desire to see this person suffer the pains of hell.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
So every soul that the devil and his demons bring down to hell increases their suffering, yet they continue to bring souls down into help despite the additional pain that it causes them.
You just proved my point.
You just proved my point.
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zach_dunn
Guest
Not really, in your post you said that the actual damned human souls would want to bring other human souls down to hell:So every soul that the devil and his demons bring down to hell increases their suffering, yet they continue to bring souls down into help despite the additional pain that it causes them.
You just proved my point.
And the Blessed Virgin revealed to the Fatima children that those in hell rejoice at seeing other souls fall into hell even though it increases their own suffering. If the Rich Man was in hell, he would want his brothers to join him there even if it increased his own pain. Since he acted in the exact opposite, it indicates that he was elsewhere.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
No. Read my quote again. I said that “those in hell” – which would apply to both human and (fallen) angelic residents. The second sentence is a conclusion drawn from the first sentence.
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zach_dunn
Guest
Yes, in the second quotation you say that, but in the one I responded to, you said that the devil and demons are the ones rejoicing, not the human souls . . . so that did not prove your point.No. Read my quote again. I said that “those in hell” – which would apply to both human and (fallen) angelic residents. The second sentence is a conclusion drawn from the first sentence.
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Cristian_B
Guest
You know, you can repent in Hell but it’s useless. You can love everybody in there but it’s useless. You can feel compassion there but 'tis useless.
Our life is like a hallway which goes straight to Hell. You cannot go back; it’s one way only. Jesus joined us; then He unlocked a door and left it open. Everyone who follows Him is saved. The ones that didn’t… I’m completely sure that at the end of the hallway they’ll repent for not following Him… but there is a time when repentance is useless. If Satan will kneel before God at the end of times, will that save him? He had his chance at the beginning of time.
And no, Hell is not for the most evil people that only want people to join them there. Believe it or not, there is no such place as purgatory: you are either a saint or not. If you are not, then you’re going to Hell. If you are, then you will eat of the tree of life. Is it so hard to be a saint?
About that passage… can’t you understand that it says knowledge? Knowledge means informed. After receiving knowledge, or after being informed, or after finding out, etc. of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His mission, you do not want to be a Christian, then you are doomed. He does not speak about Christians but non-Christians. If any non-Christian, after receiving knowledge of God’s mission, he does not want to be a Christian, then he is already judged for not believing in God’s only Son. That is what he’s talking about.
Our life is like a hallway which goes straight to Hell. You cannot go back; it’s one way only. Jesus joined us; then He unlocked a door and left it open. Everyone who follows Him is saved. The ones that didn’t… I’m completely sure that at the end of the hallway they’ll repent for not following Him… but there is a time when repentance is useless. If Satan will kneel before God at the end of times, will that save him? He had his chance at the beginning of time.
And no, Hell is not for the most evil people that only want people to join them there. Believe it or not, there is no such place as purgatory: you are either a saint or not. If you are not, then you’re going to Hell. If you are, then you will eat of the tree of life. Is it so hard to be a saint?
About that passage… can’t you understand that it says knowledge? Knowledge means informed. After receiving knowledge, or after being informed, or after finding out, etc. of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His mission, you do not want to be a Christian, then you are doomed. He does not speak about Christians but non-Christians. If any non-Christian, after receiving knowledge of God’s mission, he does not want to be a Christian, then he is already judged for not believing in God’s only Son. That is what he’s talking about.
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SHW
Guest
You misunderstood.So every soul that the devil and his demons bring down to hell increases their suffering, yet they continue to bring souls down into help despite the additional pain that it causes them.
You just proved my point.
The damned love to see “others” damned as long as “these others’” damnation does not increase their own suffering in hell. If the damned in hell contributed to/were responsible for the damnation of “these others,” then they do not want “these others” to be damned because it will increase their own suffering. Their own comfort is their only concern. They do not desire the other persons’ salvation; they only desire less pain and suffering for themselves.
From DRV:
The parable of the unjust steward: of the rich man and Lazarus.
1 And he said also to his disciples: There was a certain rich man who had a steward: and the same was accused unto him, that he had wasted his goods.
2 And he called him, and said to him: How is it that I hear this of thee? Give an account of thy stewardship: for now thou canst be steward no longer.
3 And the steward said within himself: What shall I do, for my lord taketh away from me the stewardship? To dig I am not able: to beg I am ashamed.
4 I know what I will do, that when I shall be put out pf the stewardship, they may receive me into their houses.
5 Therefore, calling together every one of his lord’s debtors, he said to the first: How much dost thou owe my lord?
6 But he said: A hundred barrels of oil. And he said to him: Take thy bill: and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
7 Then he said to another: And how much dost thou owe? Who said: A hundred quarters of wheat. He said to him: Take thy bill and write eighty.
8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, forasmuch as he had done wisely: for the children of this world are wiser in their generation than the children of light.
9 And I say to you: Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of iniquity, that when you shall fail, they may receive you into everlasting dwellings.
10 He that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in that which is greater: And he that is unjust in that which is little, is unjust also in that which is greater.
11 If then you have not been faithful in the unjust mammon, who will trust you with that which is the true?
12 And if you have not been faithful in that which is another’s: who will give you that which is your own?
13 *No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or he will hold to the one, and despise the other: you cannot serve God and mammon.
14 Now the Pharisees who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said to them: You are they who justify yourselves before men: but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is high to men, is an abomination before God.
16 *The law and the prophets were until John: from that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every one useth violence towards it.
17 *And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18 *Every one that putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her that is put away from her husband, commmitteth adultery.
19 There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen: and feasted sumptuously every day.
20 And there was a certain beggar, by name Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
21 Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table, and no one did give him: moreover, the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass that the beggar died, and he was carried by the Angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.
23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom:
24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame.
25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy life-time, and likewise Lazareth evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither.
27 And he said: Then, Father, I beseech thee that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren, that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torments.
29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets: let them hear them.
30 But he said: No, father Abraham; but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe if one rise again from the dead.
13: Matthew vi. 24.
16: Matthew xi. 12.
17: Matthew v. 18.
18: Matthew v. 32.; Mark x. 11.; 1 Corinthians vii. 10. and 11.
From Haydock’s Commentary:
to be continued …Ver. 1. There was a certain rich man, &c. By this parable, our Saviour advises his disciples to accompany their penitential works with deeds of mercy to the poor. (Ven. Bede) — There is a certain erroneous opinion, that obtains pretty generally amongst mankind, and which tends to increase crimes, and to lessen good works: and this is, the foolish persuasion that men are not accountable to any one, and that we can dispose as we please of the things in our possession. (St. Chrysostom) — Whereas we are here informed, that we are only the dispensers of another’s property, viz. God’s. (St. Ambrose)
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Sir_Knight
Guest
But the second quote regarding the demons is tied back to the first regarding “Those in hell” which includes both.Yes, in the second quotation you say that, but in the one I responded to, you said that the devil and demons are the ones rejoicing, not the human souls . . . so that did not prove your point.
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SHW
Guest
Continued…
From Haydock’s Commentary:
From Haydock’s Commentary:
When, therefore, we employ it not according to the will of our Master, but fritter and squander it away in pleasure, and in the gratification of our passions, we are, beyond all doubt, unjust stewards. (Theophylactus) — And a strict account will be required of what we have thus dissipated, by our common Lord and Master. If then we are only stewards of that which we possess, let us cast from our minds that mean superciliousness and pride which the outward splendour of riches is so apt to inspire; and let us put on the humility, the modesty of stewards, knowing well that to whom much is given, much will be required. Abundance of riches makes not a man great, but the dispensing them according to the will and intention of his employer. (Haydock) — The intention of this parable, is to shew what use each one ought to make of the goods which God has committed to his charge. In the three former parables, addressed to the murmuring Scribes and Pharisees, our Saviour shews with what goodness he seeks the salvation and conversion of a sinner; in this, he teaches how the sinner, when converted, ought to correspond to his vocation, and preserve with great care the inestimable blessing of innocence. (Calmet) — A steward, &c. The parable puts us in mind, that let men be ever so rich or powerful in this world, God is still their master; they are his servants, and must be accountable to him how they have managed his gifts and favours; that is, all things they have had in this world. (Witham)…
Ver. 19. There was a certain rich man, &c. By this history of the rich man and Lazarus, he declares that those who are placed in affluent circumstances, draw upon themselves a sentence of condemnation, if seeing their neighbour in want, they neglect to succour him. (St. Cyril, in Cat. Græc. patrum.) — He that hath the substance of this world, and shall see his brother in need, and shut up his bowels against him, how doth the charity of God abide in him? (1 John iii. 17.) A received tradition of the Jews informs us, that this Lazarus was a beggar, then at Jerusalem, suffering in the most wretched condition of poverty, and infirmity: him our Saviour introduces, to manifest more plainly the truth of what he had been saying (St. Cyril, in Cat. Græc. patrum.) — By this, we are not to understand that all poverty is holy, and the possession of riches criminal; but, as luxury is the disgrace of riches, so holiness of life is the ornament of poverty. (St. Ambrose) — A man may be reserved and modest in the midst of riches and honours, as he may be proud and avaricious in the obscurity of a poor and wretched life. — Divers interpreters have looked upon this as a true history; but what is said of the rich man seeing Lazarus, of his tongue, of his finger, cannot be literal: souls having no such parts. (Witham) — In this parable, which St. Ambrose takes to be a real fact, we have the name of the poor mendicant; but our Lord suppresses the name of the rich man, to signify that his name is blotted out of the book of life: besides, the rich man tells Abraham, that he has five brothers, who were probably still living; wherefore, to save their honour, our Lord named not their reprobated brother…
The rich man is in hell.Ver. 26. Between us and you is fixed a great chaos, or gulf; i.e. God’s justice has decreed, that the bad should forever be separated from the good. We may here take notice that the Latin and Greek word, (ver. 22) translated hell, even in the Protestant translation, cannot signify only the grave. (Witham)
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Sir_Knight
Guest
No, you are wrong. One can not repent in hell. Once we die, our minds are fixed and will not change. Just as those in heaven can no longer be tempted to sin, those in hell will never repent.You know, you can repent in Hell but it’s useless. You can love everybody in there but it’s useless. You can feel compassion there but 'tis useless.
Our life is like a hallway which goes straight to Hell. You cannot go back; it’s one way only. Jesus joined us; then He unlocked a door and left it open. Everyone who follows Him is saved. The ones that didn’t… I’m completely sure that at the end of the hallway they’ll repent for not following Him… but there is a time when repentance is useless. If Satan will kneel before God at the end of times, will that save him? He had his chance at the beginning of time.
If there is no such place as purgatory, then why does the Church encourage us to pray for the dead? If they’re in heaven, they have no need of our prayers and if they are in hell, no amount of prayers will help them.And no, Hell is not for the most evil people that only want people to join them there. Believe it or not, there is no such place as purgatory: you are either a saint or not. If you are not, then you’re going to Hell. If you are, then you will eat of the tree of life. Is it so hard to be a saint?
You’re missing the point. Paul says that IF we sin after coming to the knowledge of the truth. If it were not possible for Christians to sin after coming to the knowledge, then Paul wouldn’t be talking about it. That fact that he is talking about it, means that it IS possible for Christians to sin after coming to the knowledge of the faith.About that passage… can’t you understand that it says knowledge? Knowledge means informed. After receiving knowledge, or after being informed, or after finding out, etc. of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His mission, you do not want to be a Christian, then you are doomed. He does not speak about Christians but non-Christians. If any non-Christian, after receiving knowledge of God’s mission, he does not want to be a Christian, then he is already judged for not believing in God’s only Son. That is what he’s talking about.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
“If the damned in hell contributed to/were responsible for the damnation of “these others,” then they do not want “these others” to be damned because it will increase their own suffering.”You misunderstood.
The damned love to see “others” damned as long as “these others’” damnation does not increase their own suffering in hell. If the damned in hell contributed to/were responsible for the damnation of “these others,” then they do not want “these others” to be damned because it will increase their own suffering. Their own comfort is their only concern. They do not desire the other persons’ salvation; they only desire less pain and suffering for themselves.
So why do the devil and his demons continue to try and get souls damned to hell? According to your reasoning, they should be doing all that they can to prevent others from joining them so that their own suffering will not be increased.
The fact that they continue to draw souls to hell even though it increases their own suffering disproves your point.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
The rich man was in purgatory.
From Scripture Catholic:
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
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suko
Guest
That’s actually not quite true. According to Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich, who’s visions were used to create the film, The Passion, has a whole chapter on Christ literally descending into Hell. I actually have this book. Here’s a small quote from the book:And with regard to the bible saying that he was in hell, that is an issue with the translation. The correct translation is that he was in the realm of the dead. Recall that the bible also says that Jesus descended into hell and we know that is not possible because hell is the absence of God. If Jesus would have entered hell, it would have ceased to be hell.
“Finally, I beheld him approach to the centre of the great abyss, that is to say, to Hell itself; and the expression of his countenance was most severe…. The tremendous explosion of oaths, curses, cries of despair, and frightful exclamations which, like a clap of thunder, burst forth when the gates of Hell were thrown open by the angels, would be difficult even to imagine; our Lord spoke first to the soul of Judas, and the angels then compelled all the demons to acknowledge and adore Jesus. They would have infinitely preferred the most frightful torments to such a humiliation; but all were obliged to submit (Blessed A. C. Emmerich, The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ, chapter LIX).”
This is impossible as Sir Knight had pointed out. When a soul is in Hell, they are completely separated from God. Would you agree with me on this?Men can still feel compassion even if they are not with God. They can feel love as well.
Therefore, if they are separated from God, how are the fruits of the Holy Spirit able to work within an individual’s soul??? Do you remember the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit?
- Wisdom - desire for the things of God, and to direct our whole life and all our actions to His honor and glory
- Understanding - enable us to know more clearly the mysteries of faith
- Counsel - warn us of the deceits of the devil, and of the dangers to salvation
- Fortitude - strengthen us to do the will of God in all things
- Knowledge - enable us to discover the will of God in all things
- Piety - love God as a Father, and obey Him because we love Him
- Fear of the Lord - have a dread of sin and fear of offending God
love
joy
peace
patience
kindness
generosity
faithfulness
gentleness
self-control
Please think about this for a second everyone. If one is COMPLETELY separated from God, which one is when you are in Hell, then how can one experience the gifts or the fruits of the Holy Spirit?
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suko
Guest
This isn’t quite true. SHW, do you believe in what the saints, especially the doctors of the Roman Catholic Church have taught? If so, then you must believe in what St. Thomas Aquinas has written in his Summa Theologica. Just read here: newadvent.org/summa/5098.htm#article4The damned love to see “others” damned as long as “these others’” damnation does not increase their own suffering in hell. If the damned in hell contributed to/were responsible for the damnation of “these others,” then they do not want “these others” to be damned because it will increase their own suffering. Their own comfort is their only concern. They do not desire the other persons’ salvation; they only desire less pain and suffering for themselves.
Read article 4, “Objection 3” and then the “Reply to Objection 3.”
Also, if I’m interpreting the “Reply to Objection 1” correctly, it kinda seems like St. Thomas is saying the rich man has been damned to hell.
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zach_dunn
Guest
You can neither repent, nor love, nor feel compassion in hell.You know, you can repent in Hell but it’s useless. You can love everybody in there but it’s useless. You can feel compassion there but 'tis useless.
Who’s to say that there isn’t a waiting room on the other side of the unlocked door? The perfectly clean souls (few and far between) see the receptionist (St. Peter) and get to go right in while the others have to wait and be cleansed of their sins before they can go to the next room for eternity, for “nothing unclean shall enter it.” The Bible clearly speaks of a third state, but you can’t see it because you don’t want to think the Church might be on to something.Our life is like a hallway which goes straight to Hell. You cannot go back; it’s one way only. Jesus joined us; then He unlocked a door and left it open. Everyone who follows Him is saved. The ones that didn’t… I’m completely sure that at the end of the hallway they’ll repent for not following Him… but there is a time when repentance is useless. If Satan will kneel before God at the end of times, will that save him? He had his chance at the beginning of time.
First, there is such a place as purgatory, you just don’t want to see it; second, I would put it this way, you are either in the Lamb’s book of life or not, and as we know per St. Paul, that even though we are saved we can still be purified [1 Cor 3:15]; third, so do you count yourself among the “saved?”And no, Hell is not for the most evil people that only want people to join them there. Believe it or not, there is no such place as purgatory: you are either a saint or not. If you are not, then you’re going to Hell. If you are, then you will eat of the tree of life. Is it so hard to be a saint?
What passage are you referring to?About that passage… can’t you understand that it says knowledge? Knowledge means informed. After receiving knowledge, or after being informed, or after finding out, etc. of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and His mission, you do not want to be a Christian, then you are doomed. He does not speak about Christians but non-Christians. If any non-Christian, after receiving knowledge of God’s mission, he does not want to be a Christian, then he is already judged for not believing in God’s only Son. That is what he’s talking about.
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SHW
Guest
Demons “tempt” one human to sin with another human or to sin by himself. This is what Demons do. They can only do evil. They are attempting to win human souls for their side because they hate God. This is what demons do.“If the damned in hell contributed to/were responsible for the damnation of “these others,” then they do not want “these others” to be damned because it will increase their own suffering.”
So why do the devil and his demons continue to try and get souls damned to hell? According to your reasoning, they should be doing all that they can to prevent others from joining them so that their own suffering will not be increased.
The fact that they continue to draw souls to hell even though it increases their own suffering disproves your point.
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
James 4:7
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
The Early Church Fathers also taught that the rich man is in hell/Gehenna/everlasting lake of fire.
newadvent.org/fathers/160352.htm
By his passion, death, and resurrection, Jesus opened heaven (CCC 1026). Prior to that time, the just went to a place referred to as the “bosom of Abraham,” where they would be comforted. But not all went to the bosom of Abraham. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31), both Lazarus and the rich man died, but Lazarus was comforted in the bosom of Abraham while the rich man was in a place of torment. A great chasm separated the two.
The Catechism explains:
Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him (CCC 633; cf. Roman Catechism I, 6, 3). catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0505qq.asp
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Cristian_B
Guest
Maybe I exaggerated a bit with love… but you can still repent. You can still feel compassion, but the problem is that those in Hell did not feel compassion when they had to… while they lived on Earth. There is a time when repentance is useless. You must repent while you’re here on Earth. May I know where did you get the idea that those in Hell do not repent for their actions?You can neither repent, nor love, nor feel compassion in hell.
If you follow Jesus, He cleans your sins. The purgatory gives people idea like these: well… though I sin, if I believe him, but keep doing lesser sins, I’ll just endure a couple of hours in fire, and then enter Heaven. This is not true. you are either clean or not. Whoever follows Jesus killed himself (his nature) and is reborn spiritually. You will sin less and less everyday until you’ll be a saint. Only saints enter Heaven. He cleans us here on Earth, not when we die. If you are a true Christian, you will sin no more, and if you do, He will forgive you. There will be consequences for the sins you accidentally do on this Earth, but you will not pay them on the next life, but here.Who’s to say that there isn’t a waiting room on the other side of the unlocked door? The perfectly clean souls (few and far between) see the receptionist (St. Peter) and get to go right in while the others have to wait and be cleansed of their sins before they can go to the next room for eternity, for “nothing unclean shall enter it.” The Bible clearly speaks of a third state, but you can’t see it because you don’t want to think the Church might be on to something.
“clearly” is wrong to say. The Bible says nothing about a purgatory. But indeed the Bible says that our sins are washed with Jesus’ blood, not fire. Our sins are forgiven and washed while we live, not when we die.
Don’t think that even if sin, you will still enter Heaven only for believing in Jesus. Do not fool yourself. Only saints enter Heaven and the place to become a saint is here, not when you die.
Let’s look at the context:First, there is such a place as purgatory, you just don’t want to see it; second, I would put it this way, you are either in the Lamb’s book of life or not, and as we know per St. Paul, that even though we are saved we can still be purified [1 Cor 3:15]; third, so do you count yourself among the “saved?”
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (Hebrews 3:10-15)
You see that this passages form a comparison. It says that if you put gold and other precious stones on the foundation, fire will test them. Gold is tested through fire. You see if what appears to be gold is really gold by testing it trough fire. We construct our good works, love, etc. on our Lord Jesus Christ. He is our foundation. Our faith, hope and love are built on this foundation. Every good deed is built on this foundation. As gold is tested trough fire, so are our faith, love, hope and good works tested trough trials like temptations, sufferings, etc.
“as one escaping through the flames.” As you see, this is another comparison. It means that he is saved by God’s grace. It’s like he had a lot of luck.
About me… in my current situation I’m going to Heaven. But I pray to become as much of a saint I can.
Hebrews 10:26-27What passage are you referring to?
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Sir_Knight
Guest
First off, the Catholic definition of Hell is the absence of God. If Jesus actually went into hell, it would have ceased to be hell because God was no longer absent from there. Secondly, what would have been the point of Jesus spending three days in hell?That’s actually not quite true. According to Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich, who’s visions were used to create the film, The Passion, has a whole chapter on Christ literally descending into Hell. I actually have this book. Here’s a small quote from the book:
“Finally, I beheld him approach to the centre of the great abyss, that is to say, to Hell itself; and the expression of his countenance was most severe…. The tremendous explosion of oaths, curses, cries of despair, and frightful exclamations which, like a clap of thunder, burst forth when the gates of Hell were thrown open by the angels, would be difficult even to imagine; our Lord spoke first to the soul of Judas, and the angels then compelled all the demons to acknowledge and adore Jesus. They would have infinitely preferred the most frightful torments to such a humiliation; but all were obliged to submit (Blessed A. C. Emmerich, The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ, chapter LIX).”
The Early Church Fathers also taught that the rich man is in hell/Gehenna/everlasting lake of fire.
newadvent.org/fathers/160352.htm
A lot of this goes against official Church teaching. First off, nobody gets out of hell. Those in hell are forever lost. Those who had gone before Jesus weren’t in hell but in purgatory. That is where Jesus went to free the souls that went before Him. They are clearly treating purgatory and hell as being one and the same which they are not. Since they really mean purgatory when they say hell, they mostlikely also mean purgatory in reference to the Rich Man as well.By his passion, death, and resurrection, Jesus opened heaven (CCC 1026). Prior to that time, the just went to a place referred to as the “bosom of Abraham,” where they would be comforted. But not all went to the bosom of Abraham. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31), both Lazarus and the rich man died, but Lazarus was comforted in the bosom of Abraham while the rich man was in a place of torment. A great chasm separated the two.
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Sir_Knight
Guest
Demons tempt humans even though they know that it will increase their suffering showing that they prefer increased suffering in exchange for having more souls being damned. If the Rich man was in hell, he would have acted the same way. He would have preferred his brothers to be damned with him even if it increased his suffering. Since he did not want them to share his faith, he was acting in a way completely opposite to how those in hell act proving that he was not in hell but in purgatory.Demons “tempt” one human to sin with another human or to sin by himself. This is what Demons do. They can only do evil. They are attempting to win human souls for their side because they hate God. This is what demons do.
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