Purgatory is Biblical

[Cristian_B]

You forgot to quote Hebrews 10:26-27 …

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

… Christ’s blood doesn’t cleanse the sins that we commit after we come to the faith (see BIBLICAL quote above). We have to atone for those sins ourselves. And where does that atonement happen? In purgatory!

You forgot the word “willfully”, which changes the meaning of the passage completely. If, after knowing Christ and being in a state of a saved one, we still willfully choose to sin [note willfully], then there is no redemption for the rebelled one. If, after receiving knowledge of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice and work you say in your heart: “I will sin. I will not listen to Him. I choose to sin. I want to rebel.” That means sinning willfully, which is sinning consciously and more importantly, wanting to sin. If, for example you want to be saved, and do your best, you might still fall, but you didn’t want to fall. If you fell, but want to get up, then God helps you. That is, if you unconsciously sin or you do not want to sin and look for redemption, even if you fail, then there is hope for you. An example: if you masturbate, and fail to not masturbate, but you did want to abstain, because of God,then there is hope for you; but if after knowing about Christ you say: “I want to masturbate, and I will not listen to Him, I want to sin”, then in that case there is no salvation for you. There is a difference about sinning, and sinning willfully. You and I are not without sin, but we sometimes sin, but surely we do not want to. Then, in that case, God forgives you. But do you willfully sin? I hope not. If you are a Christian you are not saying to yourself: I will lie, or I will steal or I will take His name in vain. But if you do not willingly sin, then there is hope, but if you do after knowing Christ, then there is none. This is the meaning of the passage.

 

[SHW]

Eternal fire is all cunsuming. Nothing is left, the Rich man would not be alive in some etherreal state in pain and torment and compassionate for his fellow brothers. the Rich man is nothing. That is why this PARABLE is used. EArthly story with a spiritual meaning.

God is a consuming fire Hebrews 12:29, but He does not ever destroy the soul so that it is annihilated. An example of His consuming fire is when He appeared to Moses from the midst of the burning bush.

Exodus 3:2
And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.

Matthew 13:41-43
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness (do evil), 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

The damned angels and humans will suffer forever.

Revelation 14:9-11
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And** they will be tormented day and night forever and ever**.

When Scripture states in 1 Corinthians 3:16-18:
“Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are,” it means that this person will not enter eternal life if he sins willfully (breaks God’s commandments by sins which lead to/cause the death of spiritual life in the soul Romans 6:16, 1 John 5:16-17) Hebrews 10:26-27. If a person, after Baptism, sins these sins which lead to death Ephesians 5:5-7, Galatians 5:19-21 and does not repent before death, then he will be tormented in hell forever.

 

[EnterCanaan]

SHW:
The correct interpretation of Rev 20:10 is as follows.

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night -]for /-]to]ever and ever.*

*This verse has been mistranslated, where it reads 'for’ever and ever, it should read 'to’ever and ever. Implying duration through a time, as opposed to infinite time.

*Root from (Greek) : εἰς
Transliteration: eis
Part of Speech: preposition.
Definitions: into, unto, to, towards, for, among.
Lexicon: eis, a Prep. Governing the Accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, towards, for, among. ie: duration through a time; of the time in which a thing is done.

We know this is an accurate translation because the bible teaches that the last enemy to be destroyed is death, which is the second death. Which implies that death, which is hell, is not forever but finite, and has a designated point in time which it will cease to exist. Harmony

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

1Cor 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

If the devil and hell and death were never to be cast into the lake of fire, which is the SECOND DEATH, then you would be correct in teaching that hell would be eternal,and the verse would read FOR EVER AND EVER. but that is not in harmony with the other verses is it, so it should read TO EVER AND EVER. Both words are the correct translation, but only one is the correct context.

God will destroy this universe and create a new heaven and earth in which the former will never come into mind.

this implies that there is an end.

I wont even touch on the fact that hell, grave, hades, sheol gehenna and pit ARE ALL SYNONIMS FOR DEATH!!

The wages of sin is death!! you cease to be, you are consumed by Gods wrath which burns like an eternal fire, oh my, what does that mean, well turn to Jude 1:7 for the example

Hebrews 12:29 (King James Version)
For our God is a consuming fire.

Ok, so lets look in the bible to define the bible. What does the bible say about Gods wrath, what does the bible say about Gods fire,

Thus, the example given in Jude 1:7 teaches that the ETERNAL FIRE of God is a fire the CONSUMES AND DESTROYS… and that the eternal aspect of it, is that you will be eternally destroyed, such as Sodom and Gommorah were, forever. This is not teaching that the eternal aspect is eternal pain in a fire. Otherwise Sodom and Gommorah would still be burning today.

Just like the example given by GOD, in Jude 1:7 indicates.

How long did Sodom and Gommorah burn, ten years, one hundred years, maybe it is still burning after thousands of years. No its not, the fire burned completely and destroyed everthing in a matter of days at the most.

that is the God given example. So if you wish to justify your doctrine, then don’t negate this verse which is our example of Gods eternal fire. The fire was a few hours to a few days, it isn’t still burning is it. That is the example, it needs to be calculated into your doctrine now that you understand it.

finally, when compare scripture to scripture, it is important to be in the same context. the burning bush that did not consume is not a picture of Gods wrath or Judgment is it? The verses are two seperate contexts and thus cannot be compared in the way you have attempted.

 

[SHW]

…

Rev 20:10 …And they will be tormented day and night -]for /-]to]ever and ever.*

*This verse has been mistranslated, where it reads 'for’ever and ever, it should read 'to’ever and ever. Implying duration through a time, as opposed to infinite time.

…

We know this is an accurate translation because the bible teaches that the last enemy to be destroyed is death, which is the second death. Which implies that death, which is hell, is not forever but finite, and has a designated point in time which it will cease to exist…
**
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.**

1Cor 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

If the devil and hell and death were never to be cast into the lake of fire, which is the SECOND DEATH, then you would be correct in teaching that hell would be eternal,and the verse would read FOR EVER AND EVER. but that is not in harmony with the other verses is it, so it should read TO EVER AND EVER. Both words are the correct translation, but only one is the correct context.

The second death is when death is no more because Death and Hades (abode of the dead which included prison/purgatory and hell) Phil 2:10 are thrown into Hell (lake burning with fire and brimstone) which was/is/will be also a part of Hades up until Jesus’ return at His Second Coming. Death and Hades are then thrown into Hell after Jesus’ Second Coming. (No one in hell ever bows their knees to God so these persons (under the earth) are in prison/purgatory.) Abraham’s bosom was also a part of Hades because no one could enter heaven until after Jesus’ death. His death made it possible for Him to open the gates of heaven and that’s when the bosom of Abraham’s occupants left Hades and entered into heaven.

The Second Death is the loss of eternal life forever. The First Death is the loss of physical life when we die and our bodies are then buried in the ground/sea, etc. Our spirits cannot ever be annihilated. They are eternal. However, our physical bodies will be resurrected at Jesus’ Second Coming. The second death/loss of eternal life is the opposite of second resurrection/gain of eternal life. The first resurrection is when we die to sin (Baptism) Rom 6:4 and then remain/abide in the state of grace until we die Rev 20:6. The second resurrection is when we receive new immortal physical bodies 1 Cor 15:52-54.

God will destroy this universe and create a new heaven and earth in which the former will never come into mind.

this implies that there is an end…

There is no “end” for the heavens and the earth. There is an exchanging of the flawed for the perfect and this is why the old ones burn up. The new heavens and earth will be remade without any flaws such as earthquake faults, destructive comets, etc., and no oceans Rev 21:1.

If a person is “damned” at Jesus’ Judgment, then he will be spiritually “dead” forever because he lacked sanctifying grace when he died. However, his soul and body will be immortal, but he will not be able to enter into eternal life. He will be cast into hell to suffer God’s wrath forever and ever while God and His saints reign in heaven forever and ever Rev 22:5.

The wages of sin is death!! you cease to be, you are consumed by Gods wrath which burns like an eternal fire, oh my, what does that mean, well turn to Jude 1:7 for the example

Heb 12:29 (King James Version)
For our God is a consuming fire.

Ok, so lets look in the bible to define the bible. What does the bible say about Gods wrath, what does the bible say about Gods fire,

Thus, the example given in Jude 1:7 teaches that the ETERNAL FIRE of God is a fire the CONSUMES AND DESTROYS… and that the eternal aspect of it, is that you will be eternally destroyed, such as Sodom and Gommorah were, forever. This is not teaching that the eternal aspect is eternal pain in a fire. Otherwise Sodom and Gommorah would still be burning today.

Just like the example given by GOD, in Jude 1:7 indicates.

How long did Sodom and Gommorah burn, ten years, one hundred years, maybe it is still burning after thousands of years. No its not, the fire burned completely and destroyed everthing in a matter of days at the most.

You are mixing spiritual with physical. Spiritual cannot ever be destroyed physically. Sodom and Gomorrah were physical cities. They can and did burn up. Souls are spiritual and so they cannot ever be destroyed/consumed into non-existence.

that is the God given example. So if you wish to justify your doctrine, then don’t negate this verse which is our example of Gods eternal fire. The fire was a few hours to a few days, it isn’t still burning is it. That is the example, it needs to be calculated into your doctrine now that you understand it.

finally, when compare scripture to scripture, it is important to be in the same context. the burning bush that did not consume is not a picture of Gods wrath or Judgment is it? The verses are two seperate contexts and thus cannot be compared in the way you have attempted.

My example regarding the burning bush was to show that God’s consuming fire does not necessarily **destroy **the physical.

 

[Sir_Knight]

You forgot the word “willfully”, which changes the meaning of the passage completely. If, after knowing Christ and being in a state of a saved one, we still willfully choose to sin [note willfully], then there is no redemption for the rebelled one. If, after receiving knowledge of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice and work you say in your heart: “I will sin. I will not listen to Him. I choose to sin. I want to rebel.” That means sinning willfully, which is sinning consciously and more importantly, wanting to sin. If, for example you want to be saved, and do your best, you might still fall, but you didn’t want to fall. If you fell, but want to get up, then God helps you. That is, if you unconsciously sin or you do not want to sin and look for redemption, even if you fail, then there is hope for you. An example: if you masturbate, and fail to not masturbate, but you did want to abstain, because of God,then there is hope for you; but if after knowing about Christ you say: “I want to masturbate, and I will not listen to Him, I want to sin”, then in that case there is no salvation for you. There is a difference about sinning, and sinning willfully. You and I are not without sin, but we sometimes sin, but surely we do not want to. Then, in that case, God forgives you. But do you willfully sin? I hope not. If you are a Christian you are not saying to yourself: I will lie, or I will steal or I will take His name in vain. But if you do not willingly sin, then there is hope, but if you do after knowing Christ, then there is none. This is the meaning of the passage.

One can NOT sin UNwillfully. Sin, by definition is INTENTIONALLY committing a wrongful act or intentionally failing to perform a rightful duty. One can not sin unwillfully. And, the Apostle John tells us that we all sin. Which means, that we have to atone for those sins ourselves in PURGATORY.

 

[kepha1]

NEWS FLASH!!!

PURGATORY IS NOT ABOUT ATONING FOR SINS!!!

This is a very popular straw man argument from Protestants because they don’t understand the difference between CONSEQUENCES of sin and sin itself. Many Catholics make the same mistake.

Purgatory is not about paying the penalty of sin. Jesus on the Cross pays the penalty of our sin – which is death. Those in purgatory are not in spiritual death; they are all headed to heaven.

Purgatory pays for the “consequences” of our sin, not for the sin itself. Arguments like “Purgatory says His death was insufficient” is a total misrepresentation of what Purgatory is. Protestants have a different view of God’s justice and mercy because most of them believe in substitutional atonement, and even a misunderstanding of the Incarnation itself. God didn’t punish Jesus when He took on our sins, He took on our sins because he united Himself with us.

I think the main reason why Protestants have such a hard time with the concept of Purgatory is that they believe in imputed or forensic righteousness, which makes a final purification redundant by default.

Purgatory pays for the “consequences” of our sin, not for the sin itself.

For example, if I throw a rock through your window I have committed a sin. I can become sorry for my sin and go to Confession and be absolved of that sin. Jesus paid the price for my sin. But… the window is STILL broken. The broken window is the “consequence” of my sin and it still needs to be repaired. The Cross does not repair the window, that is my responsibility.

Thus, one of the aspects of purgatory is to pay for all the broken windows in our life that we did not get around to paying for during our life on earth.
As to why Purgatory? The answer is love. We cannot enter heaven unless we are perfected and totally holy. While we may die in a state of grace most of us are probably not perfect. Purgatory is a place of perfection. It purges the imperfections from us 'til what is left is pure gold.

Protestants believe in a form of spiritual innoculation to win the race. Catholics believe you have to keep running until the race is over. Few of us are olympic gold medalists when we die, but we still get refined enough to get the gold.

 

[Cristian_B]

…]
Thus, one of the aspects of purgatory is to pay for all the broken windows in our life that we did not get around to paying for during our life on earth.
…]

You forgot that God said: I will not remember their sins. ??Since He does not remember your sins, then He forgot that you broke the glass. He “transferred” the guilt from you to His Son. We do not have to pay anything. The “consequences” of sins on earth is discipline. He rebukes us. When God rebukes you is because He wants you to follow the good way.Since you can change your “path” only as long as you live, then there is no reason to rebuke after death, since then you cannot change your path. You can only improve as long as you live. You can only change your path as long as you live. If you die unsaved, the you remain unsaved. If you die saved, then you are saved. It is impossible to change your situation, or path, when you are dead. The dead know nothing. You can’t change after death. Discipline is only useful as long as you live. Does a father rebuke his child when the child is asleep? Doesn’t he wait for his child to wake up? But it does not work like this with God. Because once you fall asleep, you will only “wake up” at the judgment. Discipline is because of love, but at the final judgment, there will be no love from God to the damned. So He only rebukes as long as you are awake, so when you will wake up from your sleep, you will have eternal life. But parent do not rebuke the kid as long as he is sleeping; it is the same with God. Discipline after death is useless. When you wake up, mentally you are the same as before sleeping. So, since the dead are asleep, they will wake up as they were before falling asleep. To discipline them while they are sleeping is useless.

Also, your comparison is a fail. Since the payment for sin is death, the payment for breaking a window is to pay it with money. Sine God forgave you, you do not have to pay sin with death. Sine he [owner of the window] forgave you, you do not have to pay it. The payment of breaking a window is not death, but paying it with money. We were forgiven. We do not have to pay the window. We do not have to pay sin with death.

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31:34)

 

[juliamajor]

You forgot that God said: I will not remember their sins. ??Since He does not remember your sins, then He forgot that you broke the glass. He “transferred” the guilt from you to His Son. We do not have to pay anything. The “consequences” of sins on earth is discipline. He rebukes us. When God rebukes you is because He wants you to follow the good way.Since you can change your “path” only as long as you live, then there is no reason to rebuke after death, since then you cannot change your path. You can only improve as long as you live. You can only change your path as long as you live. If you die unsaved, the you remain unsaved. If you die saved, then you are saved. It is impossible to change your situation, or path, when you are dead. The dead know nothing. You can’t change after death. Discipline is only useful as long as you live. Does a father rebuke his child when the child is asleep? Doesn’t he wait for his child to wake up? But it does not work like this with God. Because once you fall asleep, you will only “wake up” at the judgment. Discipline is because of love, but at the final judgment, there will be no love from God to the damned. So He only rebukes as long as you are awake, so when you will wake up from your sleep, you will have eternal life. But parent do not rebuke the kid as long as he is sleeping; it is the same with God. Discipline after death is useless. When you wake up, mentally you are the same as before sleeping. So, since the dead are asleep, they will wake up as they were before falling asleep. To discipline them while they are sleeping is useless.

Also, your comparison is a fail. Since the payment for sin is death, the payment for breaking a window is to pay it with money. Sine God forgave you, you do not have to pay sin with death. Sine he [owner of the window] forgave you, you do not have to pay it. The payment of breaking a window is not death, but paying it with money. We were forgiven. We do not have to pay the window. We do not have to pay sin with death.

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31:34)

You still don’t get it.Everbody tried to clarify but either you can’t or won’t understand.

 

[Sir_Knight]

You forgot that God said: I will not remember their sins. ??Since He does not remember your sins, then He forgot that you broke the glass. He “transferred” the guilt from you to His Son. We do not have to pay anything. The “consequences” of sins on earth is discipline. He rebukes us. When God rebukes you is because He wants you to follow the good way.Since you can change your “path” only as long as you live, then there is no reason to rebuke after death, since then you cannot change your path. You can only improve as long as you live. You can only change your path as long as you live. If you die unsaved, the you remain unsaved. If you die saved, then you are saved. It is impossible to change your situation, or path, when you are dead. The dead know nothing. You can’t change after death. Discipline is only useful as long as you live. Does a father rebuke his child when the child is asleep? Doesn’t he wait for his child to wake up? But it does not work like this with God. Because once you fall asleep, you will only “wake up” at the judgment. Discipline is because of love, but at the final judgment, there will be no love from God to the damned. So He only rebukes as long as you are awake, so when you will wake up from your sleep, you will have eternal life. But parent do not rebuke the kid as long as he is sleeping; it is the same with God. Discipline after death is useless. When you wake up, mentally you are the same as before sleeping. So, since the dead are asleep, they will wake up as they were before falling asleep. To discipline them while they are sleeping is useless.

Also, your comparison is a fail. Since the payment for sin is death, the payment for breaking a window is to pay it with money. Sine God forgave you, you do not have to pay sin with death. Sine he [owner of the window] forgave you, you do not have to pay it. The payment of breaking a window is not death, but paying it with money. We were forgiven. We do not have to pay the window. We do not have to pay sin with death.

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31:34)

We read in 2 Sam. 12:14 that even though the sin is forgiven, there is punishment due for the forgiven sin. David is forgiven but his child was still taken – the consequence of his sin!

 

[kepha1]

You forgot that God said: I will not remember their sins. ??

God never combines forgiveness with purification.
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

Since He does not remember your sins, then He forgot that you broke the glass.

The cross does not pay for the broken glass. According to you way of thinking, I can steal a car and get caught, and the judge will let me keep the car because God won’t remember. This is absurd. The unpaid broken windows of out lives is allegorical to our imperfections when we die, it has nothing to do with atoning for sins. Maybe should have used a larger red font. Again, puratory is not about the sins that God does not remember. 1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

He “transferred” the guilt from you to His Son. We do not have to pay anything. The “consequences” of sins on earth is discipline. He rebukes us. When God rebukes you is because He wants you to follow the good way.Since you can change your “path” only as long as you live, then there is no reason to rebuke after death, since then you cannot change your path.

Purification is not discipline, nor is it a path. see 1 Cor. 3:15

You can only improve as long as you live. You can only change your path as long as you live.

Changing your path has nothing to do with purification. People don’t go to hell because they have made minor strays off their path, but you claim that if you are saved, you are always perfect and can sin as much as you want. This is a contradiction. Most of us do not die in a state of holy perfection. Your premesis for rejecting purgatory comes from forensic or imputed justification, a man made tradition.

If you die unsaved, the you remain unsaved. If you die saved, then you are saved. It is impossible to change your situation, or path, when you are dead.

Everyone in purgatory is saved. 1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision. What would be the point of Jesus preaching to the spirits in hell? Is heaven a prison? Come clean here.

 

[kepha1]

The dead know nothing.

The spiritually dead know nothing. John Calvin confused the physically dead with the spiritually dead. He was wrong.

You can’t change after death. Discipline is only useful as long as you live.

Purification has nothing to do with discipline and nothing to do with spiritual death. We can receive some purification in this life, and what gets missed on earth is purified in purgatory. God does not remember sins that are forgiven but for the 3rd time, purification is not atonement.

Does a father rebuke his child when the child is asleep? Doesn’t he wait for his child to wake up? But it does not work like this with God. Because once you fall asleep, you will only “wake up” at the judgment. Discipline is because of love, but at the final judgment, there will be no love from God to the damned. So He only rebukes as long as you are awake, so when you will wake up from your sleep, you will have eternal life. But parent do not rebuke the kid as long as he is sleeping; it is the same with God. Discipline after death is useless. When you wake up, mentally you are the same as before sleeping. So, since the dead are asleep, they will wake up as they were before falling asleep. To discipline them while they are sleeping is useless.

I agree that some of us are predestined to glory, which we cannot lose, but currently most of us are predestined to grace, which we can lose. What you are saying is being saved is a guarantee of predestination to glory and it denies God’s justice and is not biblical.

Also, your comparison is a fail. Since the payment for sin is death, the payment for breaking a window is to pay it with money. Sine God forgave you, you do not have to pay sin with death. Sine he [owner of the window] forgave you, you do not have to pay it.

So any “saved” person can do bad things and take no responsibility for the consequences?

The payment of breaking a window is not death, but paying it with money.

I thought you said the window didn’t need to be paid for. I can go downtown and smash 30 storefront windows and get away with it because Jesus paid for it. Paying for the windows is my purgatory on earth. The laws of the land reflect the justice of God. see Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59

We were forgiven. We do not have to pay the window. We do not have to pay sin with death.

Purgatory is not death, not discipline, does not pay for sins, and all in purgatory are saved. Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth”. This is also found in the Talmud, and you have no plausible interpretation for “under the earth”. But you still don’t get it because you are defending a system that was invented a mere 400 years ago. The stumbling block to understanding purgatory is the reformist confusion of justification which needs to be cleared up first.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Cristian B:

Also, your comparison is a fail. Since the payment for sin is death, the payment for breaking a window is to pay it with money. Sine God forgave you, you do not have to pay sin with death. Sine he [owner of the window] forgave you, you do not have to pay it. The payment of breaking a window is not death, but paying it with money. We were forgiven. We do not have to pay the window. We do not have to pay sin with death.

You are still mixing up forgiveness with temporal punishment. Our sins are forgiven and forgotten because of the blood of Jesus Christ. However, sins (and sinning) wounds our spirit. That is why Penance is so important. We must repair the damage done by our sins TO OUR OWN SPIRIT or souls. When Peter sinned by denying Jesus 3 times, Jesus forgave him. However it was still necessary for Jesus to rectify the damage done to the spirit of St. Peter, when, after the Resurrection, Jesus asked Peter 3 times, if he loved Him. Do you deny the need for penance too? It is the Gospel that we repent and turn to Jesus. That repentance is not a once only event. It is a lifelong journey, until the moment of death. That is why it is the narrow road. The wide road to destruction is the penance-free life.

 

[SHW]

You forgot that God said: I will not remember their sins. ??Since He does not remember your sins, then He forgot that you broke the glass. He “transferred” the guilt from you to His Son. We do not have to pay anything…

…The dead know nothing. You can’t change after death. Discipline is only useful as long as you live. … So, since the dead are asleep, they will wake up as they were before falling asleep. To discipline them while they are sleeping is useless…

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” (Jeremiah 31:34)

There is no such thing as “soul sleep.” Lazarus and the rich man were not “asleep” after they died Luke 16:19-26. Sleep in the Bible refers to the death and burial of the body, not of the soul/spirit/mind. Moses’ and Elijah’s souls were not asleep Matthew 17:2-4. They (their spirits) conversed with Jesus at His Transfiguration.

In the early church, the people were not forgiven their sins until after they repented of them (did penance for them). First, they confessed their sins to the priest and were given their penance which they performed, and then they went back to the priest and were absolved from their sins Matthew 3:8.
**
Penance: any act of reparation, self-punishment, etc. done in repentance for a sin or wrongdoing **

A person must do penance for all wrongs that he has personally done before he can enter eternal life. Nothing imperfect can enter into heaven 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. This testing by fire results in loss/purging by fire for those persons whose works are not yet made perfect before they die.

Luke 12:58-59
When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite.”

This prison is now called purgatory because a person’s venial sins must be purged from the soul by fire if they have not been completely repented on earth before the person died. The person must be made holy/perfect before he can enter into eternal life 1 Peter 1:13-16. Jesus went to preach to the spirits in this prison/purgatory while He was in the grave awaiting His resurrection 1 Peter 3:18-20. These persons/spirits repented while they were drowning in the Great Flood, but they had no time to bear fruits worthy of repentance, and so they were still in this prison 2000 years after they died Matthew 3:8.

Matthew 12:35-36
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

God remembers every sin while we are still on earth and we must account for all of them at the Judgment. He will remember them no more after the Judgment (if we have been found worthy/approved/given the right to eternal life Revelation 22:14, James 1:12, 1 Corinthians 4:2-5, 2 Thessalonians 1:4-5).

Jeremiah 31:33-34
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

After the Judgment, He will then remember our sins no more.

Ezekiel 33:14-16
Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

We must make restitution/do penance for our sins in order to enter into eternal life.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

The righteous on earth are not guaranteed eternal life. If they sin, then they become sons of disobedience and they will not be saved unless they repent before death Ephesians 5:5-7, Colossians 3:5-7.

Ezekiel 33:12-13
Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live (gain sanctifying/saving grace), but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die (lose sanctifying/saving).

If a righteous person does evil, he then becomes a son of disobedience, and then God will not remember any of this formerly righteous person’s works/deeds. He will be damned unless he repents before death.

 

[GreenWhiteBlue]

You forgot that God said: I will not remember their sins. ??Since He does not remember your sins, then He forgot that you broke the glass. He “transferred” the guilt from you to His Son.

This is absolutely false: Christ had no “guilt” at all. It is also thoroughly blasphemous, as it attributes to God an act of complete injustice: transferring “guilt” from the guilty to the completely innocent. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that the Son is Himself Almighty God. You are thus saying that God transferred guilt to God. How in the world can God be “guilty”, and expecially if that “guilt” is the guilt of offending Himself?

The dead know nothing.

This is contrary to Scripture. Look at Revelation 6:9-11:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Clearly, these souls not only cannot be described as “knowing nothing”, they seem very much aware of what is going on among the living.

 

[Cristian_B]

This is absolutely false: Christ had no “guilt” at all. It is also thoroughly blasphemous, as it attributes to God an act of complete injustice: transferring “guilt” from the guilty to the completely innocent. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that the Son is Himself Almighty God. You are thus saying that God transferred guilt to God. How in the world can God be “guilty”, and expecially if that “guilt” is the guilt of offending Himself?

When a lamb is sacrificed the guilt of the one who sacrifices the lamb passes into the lamb. So the lamb dies instead of the original sinner. When we confess yo Him, we “pass our sins” onto Him. Of course, He doesn’t “resacrifice” Himself, but only if we confess He can forgive us. The Bible says that God made the “One who knew no sin, sin, so we may have eternal life”. He was not guilty, but He suffered our guilt. He payed our price, thus he somehow had sin on Himself, but not His, but ours. He was like a lamb. The lamb did not sin, but it had on it the sins of other people.

This is contrary to Scripture. Look at Revelation 6:9-11:

Clearly, these souls not only cannot be described as “knowing nothing”, they seem very much aware of what is going on among the living.

The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. (Genesis 4:10)

Also Abel’s blood cries out from the ground to the Lord, but we know it is not literal, such as almost nothing from Revelation is literal. More than 90-100% of the book is symbolic. Like the blood does not literally cry from the ground, so those souls don’t cry either. We also know that there will be no dragon with 10 horns and 7 heads. That there will be no lamb with 2 horns and which talks like a dragon (I am talking about visual or physical appearances). We know nothing can be above the throne of God, so the altar is at the same height or lower. As Jesus said, the sky is His throne and the earth is His footstool. If there is a footstool, then it is a little lower than the throne. So, supposing that the altar could be as a maximum equal in height with His throne, the souls are under it, and under the throne is under the earth, where the dead rest. So those soul are not in front of him yet, but under His throne, which is under the Earth.

 

[GreenWhiteBlue]

When a lamb is sacrificed the guilt of the one who sacrifices the lamb passes into the lamb.

First of all, the use of the present tense is decidedly odd here: no one is still sacrificing lambs at the Temple! Secondly, this description is not supported by Scripture: there is nothing in the Old Testament that says or supports that a lamb which was a “guilt offering” was itself guilty, or became guilty with the guilt of the one for whom it was sacrificed. Instead, such lambs are described in both the Old and New Testaments as “spotless” and “holy”. I don’t see how one can argue that the sacrificial victim is simultaneously “guilty” and also “spotless and holy”. The claim that the guilt of mankind passed into Christ, and that Christ was punished for the guilt he now had, is not Catholic teaching, but instead the blasphemous foolishness advanced by some Protestant cults.

Also Abel’s blood cries out from the ground to the Lord, but we know it is not literal, such as almost nothing from Revelation is literal. … (etc.)

But what is your point? How does this in any way support the erroneous claim “the dead know nothing?”

 

[SHW]

When a lamb is sacrificed the guilt of the one who sacrifices the lamb passes into the lamb. So the lamb dies instead of the original sinner. When we confess yo Him, we “pass our sins” onto Him. Of course, He doesn’t “resacrifice” Himself, but only if we confess He can forgive us. The Bible says that God made the “One who knew no sin, sin, so we may have eternal life”. He was not guilty, but He suffered our guilt. He payed our price, thus he somehow had sin on Himself, but not His, but ours. He was like a lamb. The lamb did not sin, but it had on it the sins of other people.

Jesus paid the blood price for all guilt once and for all so that we no longer have to continually offer animal sacrifices in the temple in atonement for our personal sins. We still have to atone for our personal sins, but we no longer have to offer animal blood sacrifices in order to atone for them. Now, instead of offering animal sacrifices, we must offer ourselves to God as living sacrifices along with our good fruits of repentance in atonement for our personal sins.

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

1 Peter 2:4-5
Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

We must produce good fruits worthy of repentance in order to continue to abide/remain in Christ. Matthew 3:8

1 John 2:3-5
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

We must keep His Word (His commandments) in order to abide/remain in Him. 2 Peter 2:20-21

The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. (Genesis 4:10)

Also Abel’s blood cries out from the ground to the Lord, but we know it is not literal, such as almost nothing from Revelation is literal. More than 90-100% of the book is symbolic. Like the blood does not literally cry from the ground, so those souls don’t cry either. We also know that there will be no dragon with 10 horns and 7 heads. That there will be no lamb with 2 horns and which talks like a dragon (I am talking about visual or physical appearances). We know nothing can be above the throne of God, so the altar is at the same height or lower. As Jesus said, the sky is His throne and the earth is His footstool. If there is a footstool, then it is a little lower than the throne. So, supposing that the altar could be as a maximum equal in height with His throne, the souls are under it, and under the throne is under the earth, where the dead rest. So those soul are not in front of him yet, but under His throne, which is under the Earth.

“Life” is in the blood. This is why the Israelites/Jews were not allowed to eat the blood of animals. They were only allowed to eat the animals’ flesh. However, the flesh profits nothing “spiritually.”

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

God is a living Spirit. Only He can give us spiritual life. 1 Corinthians 15:45 This is why Jesus commanded that we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. It is because we are spiritually nourished by His Body and Blood.

John 6:55
For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.

The martyred souls were not under the earth. They were under the altar in heaven which was in front of the throne. Jesus is the Lamb who was slain. Revelation 5:6

Revelation 8:3
Then another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 6:9
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

This altar is in heaven. It is not on earth or under the earth.

 

[zach_dunn]

Purified? I thought Jesus’ blood completely cleans us. Looks like I was wrong. Ups, sorry, I forgot that according to you the Bible is wrong.

:nope: I find it hard to continue a debate with someone who’s strategy is to resort to ad hominem attacks to try and belittle their opponent. This commonly used attack — used by all non-Catholic Christian believers — is a rather funny one; you are saying that the Christian religion that is the only Christian religion in total conformity with the Bible, says that the Bible is wrong . . . :banghead:

I do not reject any teachings of the Bible, I reject your interpretation of the Bible. You are not the infallible interpreter of the Bible, the Catholic Church is: therefore, whenever you interpret the Bible to mean something opposed to Catholic doctrine and dogma, you are wrong. BUT, this topic is for a whole different thread so let’s not hijack this one.

For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. (1 Peter 1:18-19)

Redemption does not equal salvation OR purification.

And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (Hebrews 10:10)

Because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Hebrews 10:14)

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

According to you, we are not being made perfect with the blood of Jesus, so we need fire to be made perfect. So you are saying that His blood isn’t enough for us to be forgiven.

What are you even trying to say? No one has ever said what you say we are saying! You believe that there is no forgiveness after death?

Matthew 12:31-32
Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

This, of course means that there can be forgiveness after death. But this cannot apply to those of hell, because there is no forgiveness, and those in heaven do not need forgiveness. The only option left is Purgatory. Why do you think Christ’s sacrifice has only happened once in history? He is continually offering Himself to the Father in heaven so that we may continually be forgiven [Rev 5:6].

Catholics did not just make up the “fire” thing, Christian, it’s in Scripture:

Hebrews 12:29
[F]or our God is a consuming fire.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

Jude 23
But others save, pulling them out of the fire. And on others have mercy, in fear, hating also the spotted garment which is carnal.

In your theology, these people must be in hell because they are in fire; this simply doesn’t make sense because Jude is telling us to save them, no one can save anyone in hell, once someone is in hell, they are in hell: period. This must mean these people spoken of are in purgatory, this is in accord with the rest of the Bible [cf. 2 Mac 12:46].

Malachi 3:2-3
But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap; he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD. [compare to Rev 3:18-19]

To say that the Lord does not use His love (consuming fire) to purify us is completely opposed to Scripture, see also this last citation:

Sirach 2:5
For gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

All of Scripture is essentially against you . . .

 

[frtrue]

How is Scared Tradition interpreted regarding scriptural proof texts both pro and con for Purgatory? I anticipate a lengthy discussion in my parish about Purgatory if the Holy Father’s words in the Apostolic Constitution are resolved so that Anglicans’s in the TAC may be in unity with the Holy See.