Purgatory - Maccabees

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Ginger2 said:
Do you also believe this passage in Macc 12 has nothing to do with idolatry?
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Yes and no. Is lusting the same as adultry? In one sense, yes it is. In another sense, no, of course it isn’t. Is superstitiously carying amulets depicting pagan gods the same as worshiping those gods?
 
Ginger2 said:
These were Hebrews. The Hebrew people were set apart from other cultures. How could they possibly claim ignorance?
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Whether they were ignorant only pertains to the second condition. You have one more to go.
 
:rotfl:

I thought the third one was a given!!!

DELIBERATE CONSENT

Explain your scenario as to how there might not have been deliberate consent.
 
Ginger2 said:
Explain your scenario as to how there might not have been deliberate consent.
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I don’t bear the burden of proof since I didn’t claim that they didn’t have deliberate consent.

But if you assert that these men did have deliberate consent, then the burden of proof falls on you to demonstrate it.
 
Ginger2 said:
Do you also believe this passage in Macc 12 has nothing to do with idolatry?
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Absolutely. Look at their actions as mentioned in the passage without reading into it or adding to it – is there any mention of them bowing down or offering sacrifices or serving idols or other gods? No, these fighters – who died in the cause of preserving the Jewish Faith – were simply wearing the amulets, of which in itself, there is no specific biblical prohibition against. That is all the infomation we have and we can only speculate their motives. To me it seems like they might have been hedging their bets by carrying these things, like carrying a rabbits foot or “lucky charm.” That’s superstition, not idolatry.

If wearing the amulets were a **mortal **sin, Judas and his men probably wouldn’t have bothered praying for them. 1 John 5:16-17 says:
If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
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Ginger2 said:
The only other question I have concerning Maccabees is chapter 15, verse 38 (I think) to the end. I can’t remember the exact words, but it seems to me this is denying divine inspiration.

Any thoughts?
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Youre thinking of 2 Macc 15:37-39:
Since Nicanor’s doings ended in this way, with the city remaining in possession of the Hebrews from that time on, I will bring my own story to an end here too. If it is well written and to the point, that is what I wanted; if it is poorly done and mediocre, that is the best I could do. Just as it is harmful to drink wine alone or water alone, whereas mixing wine with water makes a more pleasant drink that increases delight, so a skillfully composed story delights the ears of those who read the work. Let this, then, be the end.
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Sounds to me like a humble acknowledgement of the writers own personal limitations as a writer. It in no way addresses inspiration at all.

Keep in mind the human writers of Scripture did not know that they were writing under divine inspiration, so considered what they felt to be their own work their own humble efforts.
 
Really, Vincent?

There is no evidence to suggest that these men were forced to wear the amulets.

I think the burden of proof lies with you.

I am working with what is actually written you are the one speculating.
 
Fidelis,

What does deliberate consent mean? If they did not deliberately consent, they were either forced or wore the amulets by accident.

Surely you wouldn’t suggest they put them on by accident, would you?

Is there another option I’m over-looking?
 
Ginger2 said:
Fidelis,

What does deliberate consent mean? If they did not deliberately consent, they were either forced or wore the amulets by accident.

Surely you wouldn’t suggest they put them on by accident, would you?

Is there another option I’m over-looking?
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That’s Vincent’s argument, not mine. I don’t think the issue is the degrees of sin, but the sin itself – idolatry vs. superstition. By the simple wearing of the amulets, they were arguably guilty of the second, but there’s no direct evidence from the passage itself that they were engaged in the first.
 
Vincent,

God killed them for wearing the amulets.

Do you think a just and merciful God would have killed them if it were not deliberate.

Do you think that if a step on a satanic sticker and it gets stuck to the bottom on my shoe, I am guilty for wearing a satanic symbol?

If it were not deliberate, how could they all have been found wearing them?

Being Hebrew, they had full knowledge. Then how could they not have deliberate consent.

BTW, Catholics would not let me get away with using the "prove what didn’t happen, didn’t happen, argument. Ironic that they are letting you.
 
Ginger2 said:
".
The only other question I have concerning Maccabees is chapter 15, verse 38 (I think) to the end. I can’t remember the exact words, but it seems to me this is denying divine inspiration.
I’m sorry, Ginger, but I must have missed your reply or acknowlegement, but did my answer in Post #26 to this question you asked in **Post #20 **answer your “only other question”? 🙂
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Ginger2 said:
BTW, Catholics would not let me get away with using the "prove what didn’t happen, didn’t happen, argument. Ironic that they are letting you.
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I’m afraid that I don’t quite understand your complaint.
 
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