Purgatory Musings

[Marc_Anthony]

A split-off from another Purgatory thread.

Consider this analogy:

**Purgatory Analogies

There are a few analogies that are often used to explain what Purgatory is. The first involves a young 12-year-old boy named Bobby. Bobby is a vibrant young man who sometimes has a bit too much vinegar in his blood. One day, Bobby was playing baseball at Grandma’s house and after striking out threw his baseball through Gram’s kitchen window in anger. A split second later, Bobby realizes what he has done is wrong and is completely devastated and extremely sorry. Bobby then asks his Grandma for forgiveness. This request for forgiveness is similar to what you or I might make to God or our Priest during the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession)… but back to the story. So, here is poor Bobby and Grandma. While Grandma is upset, she loves Bobby with all her heart and can tell he is truly sorry (Bobby is truly contrite) for what he has done. So, Grandma forgives Bobby. The weight that was on Bobby’s shoulders has been lifted as he hugs Grandma and says he is sorry for the 100th time. All is good, right? Bobby is forgiven; and Grandma knows her grandson is a good kid who, like all kids, makes mistakes. Well, all is good except for the fact that the broken window still needs to be repaired! This broken window is the “consequence” of Bobby’s actions. It is these “consequences” that must be made clean before we enter heaven.

When we sin, consequences are created. God forgives the sin, if we ask Him to with a contrite heart, but He does not clean up the consequences. We need to take care of those ourselves, and if we are not completely successful in cleaning them up before our death, Purgatory will take care of the rest. Of course, the assumption here is that the person did not die in the state of mortal sin. Because, if they do die in the state of mortal sin, Purgatory is not the place they will end up in. Unfortunately, eternal separation from God is where this person more than likely will end up in. This place is Hell.**

All well and good. But it raises some interesting questions about reconciliation and Purgatory:

1. Related to the story of Bobby the contrite basketball player: You must be contrite for reconciliation to be efficacious. But a truly contrite prayer of sorrow also forgives mortal sin, so what is special about reconciliation? I don’t know about the rest of you but sometimes I know something I did is a sin but don’t really feel bad about it. I DO recognize that it’s wrong though and I’m making no plans to do it again. So I go to reconciliation. How efficacious is the sacrament?
2. If you’re baptized immediately before death you go straight to Heaven, no matter your age. No purgatory. But what if you decide to get baptized yet aren’t contrite of your sins? Remember, in the analogy you die immediately afterward. Why don’t you have to make reparations for your sins in Purgatory?

I believe receiving Anointing of the Sick and then getting an Apostolic Pardon raises the same question of bypassing Purgatory. In fact, you can even be unconscious for both of those, leaving you no time to be contrite of any sins. You have made no reparations for your sins. Why are you avoiding Purgatory?

 

[Gorgias]

But a truly contrite prayer of sorrow also forgives mortal sin

if it also carries with it the intention to go to sacramental confession as soon as possible (cf CCC #1452)

I don’t know about the rest of you but sometimes I know something I did is a sin but don’t really feel bad about it. I DO recognize that it’s wrong though and I’m making no plans to do it again. So I go to reconciliation. How efficacious is the sacrament?

Just as efficacious. You’re talking about the distinction between “perfect contrition” and “imperfect contrition”. The efficacy of the sacrament of confession doesn’t depend on the perfection of the penitent – it’s efficacious on its own merits!

If you’re baptized immediately before death you go straight to Heaven, no matter your age. No purgatory. But what if you decide to get baptized yet aren’t contrite of your sins? Remember, in the analogy you die immediately afterward. Why don’t you have to make reparations for your sins in Purgatory?

I assume you mean that you desire baptism, but don’t have perfect contrition. Your desire for baptism (which isn’t fulfilled by the celebration of the sacrament) means that you’re assured salvation… but I haven’t read anything that suggests the implication that the purification of purgation isn’t necessary. Do you have any references that say that a baptism of desire sets aside the need for purgation?

I believe receiving Anointing of the Sick and then getting an Apostolic Pardon raises the same question of bypassing Purgatory. In fact, you can even be unconscious for both of those, leaving you no time to be contrite of any sins. You have made no reparations for your sins. Why are you avoiding Purgatory?

I’m just thinking out loud here, but I’d say that it has to do with the authority given the apostles: “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Mt 16:19). The Apostolic Pardon is given in the name of the Apostolic See; so, if the Successor of Peter is pardoning the temporal punishment due to sin, then it’s gone!

 

[Catholic4Christ]

1. If you’re baptized immediately before death you go straight to Heaven, no matter your age. No purgatory. But what if you decide to get baptized yet aren’t contrite of your sins? Remember, in the analogy you die immediately afterward. Why don’t you have to make reparations for your sins in Purgatory?

I believe receiving Anointing of the Sick and then getting an Apostolic Pardon raises the same question of bypassing Purgatory. In fact, you can even be unconscious for both of those, leaving you no time to be contrite of any sins. You have made no reparations for your sins. Why are you avoiding Purgatory?

I suppose that one could make the argument that an adult (who happens to not be even remotely sorry for past sins), though all of his sins are forgiven AT baptism, MAY be further sinning after his baptism for not feeling even a little contrite. But this is pure uneducated speculation by me. Anyone feel free to trash that possibility with better theology.

 

[Actaeon]

1. Related to the story of Bobby the contrite basketball player: You must be contrite for reconciliation to be efficacious. But a truly contrite prayer of sorrow also forgives mortal sin, so what is special about reconciliation? I don’t know about the rest of you but sometimes I know something I did is a sin but don’t really feel bad about it. I DO recognize that it’s wrong though and I’m making no plans to do it again. So I go to reconciliation. How efficacious is the sacrament?

I once heard a priest explain (in an hour long discussion on the sacrament of reconciliation), that if we could all have perfect contrition all of the time, that there would be no need of the sacrament… but because we are fallible humans who so rarely attain perfect contrition, we must must must have the sacrament… and the church, whose authority to bind and loose sins, has declared that we MUST attend confession as soon as possible, even after an act of perfect contrition.

So to answer your question, you do NOT have to be perfectly contrite to attend the sacrament of confession, you merely have to be contrite (and imperfect contrition can include that we know something we did is wrong and we seek to avoid the punishment of hell).

1. If you’re baptized immediately before death you go straight to Heaven, no matter your age. No purgatory. But what if you decide to get baptized yet aren’t contrite of your sins? Remember, in the analogy you die immediately afterward. Why don’t you have to make reparations for your sins in Purgatory?

I believe receiving Anointing of the Sick and then getting an Apostolic Pardon raises the same question of bypassing Purgatory. In fact, you can even be unconscious for both of those, leaving you no time to be contrite of any sins. You have made no reparations for your sins. Why are you avoiding Purgatory?

well, interesting proposals, but the council of trent declared that the graces received in the sacrament depend upon the disposition and cooperation of the recipient. If you went to baptism with no disposition towards reform and therefore abused the sacrament, you would not have the commensurate salvific grace imparted therein… in likelihood you would not get a “pass” on purgatory in that case.

As to annointing of the sick, the disposition of the person’s soul is not based on consciousness. You are either disposed to God or opposed. Just because you are asleep or otherwise unconscious does not change the fact that your soul still has a personal disposition (in other words, if you lost consciousness thinking how you’d like to repent and how you love God, the annointing of the sick would be efficacious, whereas if you lost consciousness while thinking how you hate God and aren’t contrite for anything, the lack of disposition and cooperation with grace would mean that annointing of the sick would have little to no effect).

 

[Marc_Anthony]

well, interesting proposals, but the council of trent declared that the graces received in the sacrament depend upon the disposition and cooperation of the recipient. If you went to baptism with no disposition towards reform and therefore abused the sacrament, you would not have the commensurate salvific grace imparted therein… in likelihood you would not get a “pass” on purgatory in that case.

As to annointing of the sick, the disposition of the person’s soul is not based on consciousness. You are either disposed to God or opposed. Just because you are asleep or otherwise unconscious does not change the fact that your soul still has a personal disposition (in other words, if you lost consciousness thinking how you’d like to repent and how you love God, the annointing of the sick would be efficacious, whereas if you lost consciousness while thinking how you hate God and aren’t contrite for anything, the lack of disposition and cooperation with grace would mean that annointing of the sick would have little to no effect).

Interesting. So if I’m baptized but only imperfectly contrite I might be able to make it to Heaven but not bypass Purgatory?

There are a lot of questions here that just fall under the umbrella of invincible ignorance too. For example, if you hate God how much are you personally responsible considering your circumstances? That would be, theoretically a lack of FULL consent (in this hypothetical situation). What effect would the Annointing/Baptism have? What type of assurance would the person who was baptized/annointed have of their salvation (or their families for that matter)?

 

[Actaeon]

Interesting. So if I’m baptized but only imperfectly contrite I might be able to make it to Heaven but not bypass Purgatory?

Who is to say?

I think that we certainly can’t say that PERFECT contrition is required for any sacrament to be efficacious, but the Council of Trent didn’t go so far as to be able to answer your question. The extent of what they said is that the grace imparted depends on the disposition and cooperation of the recipient… take from that what you will.

There are a lot of questions here that just fall under the umbrella of invincible ignorance too. For example, if you hate God how much are you personally responsible considering your circumstances?

Invincible ignorance is about level of catechesis, not actual ignorance. If you know God and have proper catechesis but HATE God, then you are not invincibly ignorant at all, but rather in danger of losing your soul.

That would be, theoretically a lack of FULL consent (in this hypothetical situation). What effect would the Annointing/Baptism have? What type of assurance would the person who was baptized/annointed have of their salvation (or their families for that matter)?

I’m guessing you mean that if someone hated God and did not want to be baptised but went through with baptism anyway (maybe to placate family members)? My guess is that the grace imparted would then be the minimum possible in a sacrament, but again, I can’t say that for certain because Trent never went so far as to define that…

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I’m guessing you mean that if someone hated God and did not want to be baptised but went through with baptism anyway (maybe to placate family members)? My guess is that the grace imparted would then be the minimum possible in a sacrament, but again, I can’t say that for certain because Trent never went so far as to define that…

Something like that, or if they received Anointing of the Sick to placate family members. So if this family member was not contrite while receiving the Anointing or not contrite but unconscious they wouldn’t make it to Heaven?

Or perhaps, like you said, they would make it but their time in Purgatory would compensate.

How would the Apostolic Pardon fit into this?