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catholic1
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there is no reference to purgatory in the bible james white made that very clear in his debate this was a money making venture by the church that i love the reformers were correct on there stance of the churvh 
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J.W.B
Guest
According to who? Your interpretation? Purgatory seems pretty clear to me. Check out the “Catholic Answers” website to help you.there is no reference to purgatory in the bible james white made that very clear in his debate this was a money making venture by the church that i love the reformers were correct on there stance of the churvh
There is no reference to “Trinity” in the Bible either, but it’s in there
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Sarah_Jane
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Karen_Anne
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J.W.B.:
Karen Anne
Well now - that is something to really think about, isn’t it? Why ARE we expected to beieve something that is NOT there?? Hmmmm…There is no reference to “Trinity” in the Bible either, but it’s in there
Karen Anne
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Sherlock
Guest
Catholic1,
I take it that English is not your first language?
If you love the Church (as I think you say you do, though the grammar makes that difficult to say for sure), then I would expect that means, at the very least, that you have read extensively about the Church’s doctrine on Purgatory and why we believe it (and yes, it does have Scriptural support). So—where do the Church’s arguments fall short, in your opinion? Obviously they must have, since you have abandoned the Catholic position on this matter. Perhaps you could tell me the arguments FOR the doctrine of Purgatory, and then the arguments AGAINST the doctrine. That way I will be able to see the nature of your objection and see the reasoning process that led you to this conclusion.
I take it that English is not your first language?
If you love the Church (as I think you say you do, though the grammar makes that difficult to say for sure), then I would expect that means, at the very least, that you have read extensively about the Church’s doctrine on Purgatory and why we believe it (and yes, it does have Scriptural support). So—where do the Church’s arguments fall short, in your opinion? Obviously they must have, since you have abandoned the Catholic position on this matter. Perhaps you could tell me the arguments FOR the doctrine of Purgatory, and then the arguments AGAINST the doctrine. That way I will be able to see the nature of your objection and see the reasoning process that led you to this conclusion.
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Gracie2004
Guest
1 Peter 4:6, in the New Testament even…hm…imagine that,…something in the new testament that refers to a Catholic doctrine…amazing.
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aridite
Guest
Purgatory is the state in which a soul which had been redeemed by Christ and assured of a place in heaven is purified of the harm done to itself by its sin. Purgatory is the state in which, after having been judged, as Jesus put it, “you will never get out till you have paid the last penny” (Mt 5:25-26). The soul in purgatory is saved by the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus from the guilt and estrangement from God which its sins justly deserve. But, while the soul is redeemed from guilt, it is still imperfect, impure and unclean. “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven] . . .” (Rev. 21:27). The souls of the redeemed in purgatory still need to be sanctified and made perfect. Purgatory is the state where the damage to one’s character from one’s sin (e.g., being a sensuous or an angry person) are cleansed away (i.e., purged as by fire) as they were meant to be by penances during one’s life.
(T)he work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15).
The prayers and sufferings of other Christians in the Body of Christ can help heal the spiritual hurt that others suffer. “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church” (Col 1:24). The ability of the faithful to help make up for the sufferings lacking in the Body of Christ applies even to those souls who are suffering the purification of purgatory. The Scripture that most clearly attests to this continuous tradition of the Church is just as controversial as the tradition itself, for it is contained in one of the books of the Greek Old Testament that was rejected by Martin Luther and Protestants in the 16th century.
For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin (2 Macc. 12:44-45).
(T)he work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15).
The prayers and sufferings of other Christians in the Body of Christ can help heal the spiritual hurt that others suffer. “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church” (Col 1:24). The ability of the faithful to help make up for the sufferings lacking in the Body of Christ applies even to those souls who are suffering the purification of purgatory. The Scripture that most clearly attests to this continuous tradition of the Church is just as controversial as the tradition itself, for it is contained in one of the books of the Greek Old Testament that was rejected by Martin Luther and Protestants in the 16th century.
For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin (2 Macc. 12:44-45).
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Scott_Waddell
Guest
Anyone else’s spidey-sense tingling? 
Scott
Scott
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Gracie2004
Guest
yes, catholic1 is posting alot and winking? What’s up?
Gracie
Gracie
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milimac
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Me think catholic1 not really Catholic. No can discuss issues honestly or back up of points.
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Cairisti
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Scott Waddell:
Yep, not just tingling, but roaring! Funny how the OP’s profile say’s he’s Catholic, but the theads he’s started are anything but. Hummmmm. We wonders precious, we wonders…Anyone else’s spidey-sense tingling?
Scott
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J.W.B
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Karen Anne:
What I mean is that the word “Trinity” is not in there. I should not have said “reference.”
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Lisa4Catholics
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I strongly suspect the poster is yesorno recently suspended for peddling cuttingedge AntiCatholic material by Everette and Rebecca Sexton who I engaged via e-mail a while back.
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piety101
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Catholic1
A little evidence for such a statement
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Catholics4Life
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Thanks for trying to inform those of us who you think are living in an ignornant state. May we have some verses to prove that purgatory does not exist? Look out though because we have heard this claim many, many, many, many, many times before, so we are prepared to refute your false claim. That is if you wish to actually talk bible verses rather than simply making statements and ending them with this little guy → . He is a cute little smiley face but he is not really proving your points. God bless you for your noble attempts to try and save us though. We never knew that others did not believe in purgatory. Okay, so we have heard it before, but we don’t get why some don’t get it. It is right there in black and white.
. He is a cute little smiley face but he is not really proving your points. God bless you for your noble attempts to try and save us though. We never knew that others did not believe in purgatory. Okay, so we have heard it before, but we don’t get why some don’t get it. It is right there in black and white.
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TNT
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James White is a hypocrite. He spends about 200 pages in his book The Forgotten Trinity, proving the Trinity is inferred, but not the word, from the Bible. He uses lots of Catholic Church Fathers (who went to MASS), including Athanasius. That is, he utilizes EXTRA-biblical sources to confirm the Trinity. Of course those same Fathers confirm purgatory…go figure.there is no reference to purgatory in the bible james white made that very clear in his debate this was a money making venture by the church that i love the reformers were correct on there stance of the churvh
Further:
The Arians gave plenty of Scripture and “apostolic writings” to prove that Christ was a creature of God and not God in the flesh. 2/3’s of the Churchmen followed them into heresy from 320-420AD. Nor does the Bible use Trinity to describe the Triune God of 3 distinct and equal Persons, yet only one God. The Jw’s can give volumes of Scripture to deny the Trinity. In fact, the word Incarnation is totally unheard of in Scripture. Yet the Catholic Church stamps; “…and the Word was made flesh” as “Incarnation”.
The heretics of old were very adept at using the words of Scripture to support their heresies by way of interpretation. That’s how they would get followers. The Mormons use the Words in Scripture to prove Baptism for the dead, and without opposing “interpretation” they have very solid ground.
1Cor:15:29: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?
Speaking of baptism, the issue of infant baptism has split the heart of Protestantism right down the middle. Why? Because the issue is obscure in Scripture. “Interpretation”, deduction from verses and tradition, are everything on this issue!
This has occurred throughout Church history:
1Cor:11:19: For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
Who, exactly are “they which are approved” to fight heresies, if not the approved teachers in the Church?
James White proclaims himself as such, but he cannot give a shred of proof that he has any authority which is APPROVED beyond his opinion.
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thessalonian
Guest
Your Catholic? So apparently you don’t believe in infallibility.there is no reference to purgatory in the bible james white made that very clear in his debate this was a money making venture by the church that i love the reformers were correct on there stance of the churvh
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TNT
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Purgatory as a place of judgement and rectitude has been around longer than the NT.
**Luke:12:47-48: And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
**Have you had your stripes in this life for all that you did or failed to do?
When we believe a person has wronged us most unjustly, and the offender sees it as completely justified, who decides, and what retribution will apply? If it is not a legal matter, as most are not, then we take comfort in knowing that God’s Justice and Mercy will be *perfectly applied in this or *the next life, to both of us. (vengeance is mine, saith the Lord). Purgatory is a great comfort to the innocent, just and merciful, a great obstacle to the otherwise imprudent and petty.
**Luke:12:47-48: And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
**Have you had your stripes in this life for all that you did or failed to do?
When we believe a person has wronged us most unjustly, and the offender sees it as completely justified, who decides, and what retribution will apply? If it is not a legal matter, as most are not, then we take comfort in knowing that God’s Justice and Mercy will be *perfectly applied in this or *the next life, to both of us. (vengeance is mine, saith the Lord). Purgatory is a great comfort to the innocent, just and merciful, a great obstacle to the otherwise imprudent and petty.
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TNT
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**Eccles 12:14: For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.
Prov:25:21-23: If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee. The north wind driveth away rain **(symbol of life giving mercy): so does an angry countenance, a backbiting tongue.
Knowing that the OT gives us shadows and types for the NT, much is cloaked until the light of the NT clarifies it. But in the case of Purgatory, it is fairly well developed from the early dawn of this belief, when compared to something like “faith alone is all that is needed” which was not known until the 1500’s new understanding of revelation.
Gene:50:10: And they came to the threshing floor of Atad, which is beyond Jordan, and there they mourned with a great and very sore lamentation: and he made a mourning for his father seven days.(Who is dead.)
**Numb:20:29: And when all the congregation saw that Aaron was dead, they mourned for Aaron thirty days, all the house of Israel.
Deut:34:8: And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so *the days of weeping and mourning *for Moses were ended.
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Prov:25:21-23: If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee. The north wind driveth away rain **(symbol of life giving mercy): so does an angry countenance, a backbiting tongue.
Knowing that the OT gives us shadows and types for the NT, much is cloaked until the light of the NT clarifies it. But in the case of Purgatory, it is fairly well developed from the early dawn of this belief, when compared to something like “faith alone is all that is needed” which was not known until the 1500’s new understanding of revelation.
Gene:50:10: And they came to the threshing floor of Atad, which is beyond Jordan, and there they mourned with a great and very sore lamentation: and he made a mourning for his father seven days.(Who is dead.)
**Numb:20:29: And when all the congregation saw that Aaron was dead, they mourned for Aaron thirty days, all the house of Israel.
Deut:34:8: And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so *the days of weeping and mourning *for Moses were ended.
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TNT
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Isa:4:4: When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
The purging appears necessary for salvation by washing away of the filth. This purging is to include judgment and burning. This passage is troublesome to anyone denying a Purgatory.
**Is 6:6-7: Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. *He touched my mouth with it. *“See,” he said, “now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged.”
**Is not a sin purged by fire? Yes. Is not wickedness removed by fire? Yes.
**Prov:23:14: Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
**Is he not delivered from purgatory after a punishment?. Yes.
**1Sam 28:12-16: When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” The king said to her, “Have no fear; what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and *he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance *(worship). Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?
**Do we not see that Samuel is brought UP, and not down from Heaven. Where was he? In the Limbo of the dead. Therefore there is a third place. When is any third place destroyed? Not until the end of time. See **Reve:20:14 **below.
**Mica:7:8-9: Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me. I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against Him, until He judge my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, I shall behold his righteousness.
**St Jerome, the first one to combine all the books of Scripture under one cover, and a world authority in Hebrew and Greek, Says this in about 400AD:
“when I shall sit in darkness…I will bear the indignation of the Lord…until He judge my cause” cannot be understood of any pain so properly as that of Purgatory.
**Zech:9:11: As for thee also, *by the blood *of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
**The pit from which these prisoners are drawn is the Purgatory from which Our Lord delivered them in His descent into hell after crucifixion and before resurrection. It cannot be understood as Limbo, where the Fathers were before the resurrection, in Abraham’s bosom, because there was water of consolation there.
St Augustine writes in 415AD: Our Lord visited those who were being tormented in hell, that is in Purgatory, and that He delivered them from it. It follows then that there is a place where the faithful departed are held prisoners and whence they can be delivered.
**Psal:38:1-3: A Psalm of David, to bring to remembrance. O LORD, rebuke me not in thy wrath: neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure. For thine arrows stick fast in me, and thy hand presses me sore. There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin.
**Speaks of both hell and Purgatory; In such sense that to be rebuked in thy wrath refers to eternal hell. Chasten in thy hot displeasure refers to fires of Purgatory. (St Francis de Sales - 1600AD)
The purging appears necessary for salvation by washing away of the filth. This purging is to include judgment and burning. This passage is troublesome to anyone denying a Purgatory.
**Is 6:6-7: Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar. *He touched my mouth with it. *“See,” he said, “now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged.”
**Is not a sin purged by fire? Yes. Is not wickedness removed by fire? Yes.
**Prov:23:14: Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
**Is he not delivered from purgatory after a punishment?. Yes.
**1Sam 28:12-16: When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” The king said to her, “Have no fear; what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and *he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance *(worship). Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?
**Do we not see that Samuel is brought UP, and not down from Heaven. Where was he? In the Limbo of the dead. Therefore there is a third place. When is any third place destroyed? Not until the end of time. See **Reve:20:14 **below.
**Mica:7:8-9: Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me. I will bear the indignation of the LORD, because I have sinned against Him, until He judge my cause, and execute judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, I shall behold his righteousness.
**St Jerome, the first one to combine all the books of Scripture under one cover, and a world authority in Hebrew and Greek, Says this in about 400AD:
“when I shall sit in darkness…I will bear the indignation of the Lord…until He judge my cause” cannot be understood of any pain so properly as that of Purgatory.
**Zech:9:11: As for thee also, *by the blood *of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
**The pit from which these prisoners are drawn is the Purgatory from which Our Lord delivered them in His descent into hell after crucifixion and before resurrection. It cannot be understood as Limbo, where the Fathers were before the resurrection, in Abraham’s bosom, because there was water of consolation there.
St Augustine writes in 415AD: Our Lord visited those who were being tormented in hell, that is in Purgatory, and that He delivered them from it. It follows then that there is a place where the faithful departed are held prisoners and whence they can be delivered.
**Psal:38:1-3: A Psalm of David, to bring to remembrance. O LORD, rebuke me not in thy wrath: neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure. For thine arrows stick fast in me, and thy hand presses me sore. There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin.
**Speaks of both hell and Purgatory; In such sense that to be rebuked in thy wrath refers to eternal hell. Chasten in thy hot displeasure refers to fires of Purgatory. (St Francis de Sales - 1600AD)
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