purgatory not in bible

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catholic1:
there is no reference to purgatory in the bible james white made that very clear in his debate this was a money making venture by the church that i love the reformers were correct on there stance of the churvh 👍
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The the dishonesty of this post is only surpassed by its sorry patheticness. How very sad.
 
**2 Maccabees 12:42-45: …and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. (**for a fee, people can buy you less time there?) Actually it is a financial sacrifice, just as there is a personal time or convenience sacrifice which you make all the time for your kids. In the $5 case it pays for the part of the cost of a public Mass, candles, hosts, wine, cleaning, flowers, etc.

In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.

For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

This book was part of the OT canon since 382AD chosen at the same time and along with every one of the NT Canon books. If the Church was wrong on Maccabees, it could also be wrong on any of the 27 NT books, or neglected to include some She should have included. In which case the Mormon is correct…“many books have been removed…”

It was removed by you-know-who in 1530AD, 1200 years as part of the Bible - poof.

Lk 16:16-17 The law and the prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and every one enters it violently. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to become void.

The explicit practice of the Jerusalem Jews 200BC, and still today in Orthodox Jewish religion, is clear in this passage. [Jewish prayer books today contain prayers for the dead (the Mourner’s Qaddish). If the Jews had invented the doctrine of purgatory or prayers for the dead undoubtedly Christ would have condemned it, as He condemned them for a long list of changes in doctrine and discipline in St. Matthew 23.

Even if refused as Scripture, it is historically accurate, and contained in the Septuagint Jewish Scriptures from which 2/3’s of the OT quotes and references in the NT come. That is just historical fact, admitted by non-Catholic scholars. Notice also that the teachers of the faith in Jerusalem received them, and no rejection by them. It was “standard procedure”. Christ never rebukes this Jewish practice of praying or mourning for the dead.

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***Sirach 7:33: *“Be generous to all the living, and withhold not your kindness from the dead.” *

**Much of this chapter sounds like a primitive beginning form of the Sermon on the Mount:

**30 With all your strength, love your Creator, forsake not his ministers.

  1. *]Honor God and respect the priest; give him his portion as you have been commanded: First fruits and contributions, due sacrifices and holy offerings.
    *]To the poor man also extend your hand, that your blessing may be complete;

    33 Be generous to all the living, and withhold not your kindness from the dead.

    34 Avoid not those who weep, but mourn with those who mourn;

    35 Neglect not to visit the sick-- for these things you will be loved.

    36 In whatever you do, remember your last days, and you will never sin.

    **Zech 13:8-9: **“In the whole land, says the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive. And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The LORD is my God.’”

    **2/3’s will perish (hell). 1/3 will be saved as His people, though after being put into fire and purified (purgatory).

    **Mala:3:2-3: But who may abide *the Day *of his coming? and who shall stand when he appears? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and *purifier *of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

    The early Church fathers - Origin 205AD, St Ambrose 390AD, St Jerome 400AD all understood this as a purgation which will be at the end of time by a general conflagration in which will be purged away the remains of sin of those alive then. Now, if persons at the end of time have need of purgation before received into Heaven, why shall those who die before, not have the very same need? St. Irenaeus 240AD, in this connection, says that: because the militant (earthly communion) Church is then to mount up to the heavenly palace of the Spouse, and will no longer have time for purgation, her faults and stains will there and then be purged away by this fire which will precede the judgment.If Heaven cannot receive any stains at the end, neither will it receive them any better at present. (St Francis de Sales - 1600AD)
 
**Regarding Punishment after Forgiveness

2Sam:12:13-14: And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also has put away thy sin; (forgiven) thou shalt not die.

But, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also born unto thee shall surely die.

**David is forgiven, but the punishment stands via the death of an innocent.

*Numb:20:12: And the LORD spoke unto Moses and Aaron, Because you believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore *you shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

**In Moses case: Who could doubt that Moses died forgiven of his sin? Yet, this forgiven “true penitent” was told by God: “You shall die on the mountain you have climbed, and shall be taken to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and there was taken to his people; *because both of you broke faith with me among the Israelites *at the waters of Meribath-kadesh in the desert of Zin for failing to manifest my sanctity.”

**Ps 99:8: O LORD, our God, you answered them; you were a forgiving God, though you punished their offenses.
GREAT definition of purgatory!
**Many receive forgiveness in this life and die before receiving any punishment for those forgiven offenses.
 
**Math:5:21-22: You have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

**It is only the 3rd offense that is punished with hell. In any case, therefore, it follows that there are other punishments which are not eternal. These are the pains of Purgatory, as it will not take place in heavenly bliss.

St Francis de Sales: May it not be that a man should die on the first or second offense which is spoken of here? And when will such a one pay the penalty due to his offense ? Or if you will have that he pays them not, what place will you give him for his retreat after this world? You will not assign him hell, unless you would add to the sentence of Our Lord, who does not assign hell as a penalty save to those who shall have committed the third offense. Lodge him in Paradise you must not, because the nature of that heavenly place rejects all sorts of imperfections. Allege not here the mercy of the Judge, because He declares in this place that He intends also to use justice. Do then as the ancient Fathers did, and say that there is a place where they will be purified, and then they will go to heaven above.
 
**Math:5:25-26: Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Luke:12:58-59: When thou go with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art on the way, give diligence that thou may be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

**This prison is not death of hell, for one gets out if payment is made. It is not heaven. It can only be that 3rd place, out of which one is taken only after payment.

Discourse by St Francis de Sales (1580AD): Origen, S. Cyprian, S. Hilary, S. Ambrose, S. Jerome, and S. Augustine say that the way which is meant in the *whilst thou art in the way *is no other than the passage of the present life: the adversary will be our own conscience, which ever -fights against us and for us, that is, it ever resists our bad inclinations and our old Adam for our salvation, as S. Ambrose expounds, [and] Bede, S. Augustine, S. Gregory, and S. Bernard. Lastly. the judge is without doubt Our Lord in S. John (5.): *The Father has given all judgment to the Son. The *prison *again, is hell or the place of punishment in the other world, in which, as in a large jail, there are many buildings; one for those who are damned, which is as it were for criminals, the other for those in Purgatory, which is as it were for debt. The farthing, of which it is said **thou shalt not go out from thence till thou pay the last farthing, are little sins, earthly attractions or affections, and infirmities, as the farthing is the smallest money one can owe.

Now let us consider a little where this repayment of which Our Lord speaks - *till thou pay the last farthing-is to be made. And (1.) we find from most ancient Fathers that it is in Purgatory: Tertullian (Lib. *de Anima *c. x.), Cyprian (Epist., lib. iv. 2), Origen (Horn. 3 5 on this place of Luke), with Emissenus (Hom. 3 de Epiph.), S. Ambrose (in Luc. xii.), S. Jerome (in Matt. v.), S. Bernard (serm. de obitu Huberti).
(2.) When it is said *till thou pay the last farthing, is it not implied that one can pay it, and that one can so diminish the debt that there only remains at length its last farthing? But just as when it is said in the Psalm (cix.): *Sit at my right hand until I make thy enemies, *&c., it properly follows that at length he will make his enemies his footstool; so when he says **thou shalt not go out till thou pay, he shows that at length he will pay or will be able to pay.

(3.) Who sees not that in S. Luke the comparison is drawn, not from a murderer or some criminal, who can have no hope of escape, but from a debtor who is thrown into prison till payment, and when this is made is at once let out? This then is the meaning of Our Lord, that whilst we are in this world we should try by penitence and its fruits to pay, according to the power which we have by the blood of the Redeemer, the penalty to which our sins have subjected us; since if we wait till death we shall not have such good terms in Purgatory, when we shall be treated with severity of justice.
 
In S. Luke, in the 16th chapter, it is written:
Make unto yourselves friends of the mammon of iniquity, that when you shall fail* they may receive you into eternal tabernacles. *RSV: And I tell you, make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous mammon, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal habitations.
St Frances De Sales:
To fail, what is it but to die? -and the friends, who are they but the Saints? The interpreters all understand it so; whence two things follow, -that the Saints can help men departed, and that the departed can be helped by the Saints. For in what other way can one understand these words: make to yourselves friends who may receive you? They cannot be understood of alms, for many times the alms are good and holy and yet acquires us not friends who can receive us into eternal tabernacles, as when it is given to bad people with a holy and right intention. Thus is this passage expounded by S. Ambrose, and by S. Augustine (de Civ. Dei xii. 27). But the parable Our Lord is using is too clear to allow us any doubt of this interpretation; for the similitude is taken from a steward who, being dismissed from his office and reduced to poverty, begged help from his friends, and Our Lord likens the dismissal unto death, and the help begged from friends unto the help one receives after death from those to whom one has given alms. This help cannot be received by those who are in Paradise or in hell, it is then by those who are in Purgatory.
 
**Hebr:12:23: To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of *just men made perfect,

***Here we see the spirits that are made perfect. How? The Church says by purgation of pride and self-love after they are spirits.

**Phil:2:10: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Reve:5:3: And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

Reve:5:13: And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

**In the earth is here understood as all the living as it also says on the earth. Here 3 places are clearly named for the living. We see that Jesus is adored by those under the earth, on their knees. What is that if not purgatory? For the damned do not adore,

**1Pet 3:18-20: For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah…

**He did not preach to those in the lake of fire, for it would be of no value to them then. They are not in Heaven. Where then are they? At least a third place. Therefore there is a third place in God’s plan. For:

Mat. 22:31-33: And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not God of the dead, but of the living." And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.

*Reve:20:14: And death and hell *were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

**Is not purgatory the Greek hell?. Yes. Will it end when death ends? Yes. One does not cast the lake of fire into the lake of fire. Purgatory then sustains the integrity of this prophecy.

**2Tim 1:16-18: May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me-- may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day–and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

**Every verb in this writing when referring to Onesiphorus is in the past tense. The grant of mercy is first to his household, not to him. Then, Paul asks for mercy on him alone. Why? Because *Onesiphorus is dead. *Yet Paul prays for a mercy upon him. If no Purgatory, why a mercy. In heaven, we have no need for prayers of mercy.
 
**1Cor:15:29-32: Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? Why am I in peril every hour? I protest, brethren, by my pride in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die every day! What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”

**Sounds like:

2Maccabees: For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

The “baptism means only immersion” sects have a real problem with these verses.

St Frances de Sales:
This passage properly understood evidently shows that it was the custom of the primitive Church to watch, pray, fast, for the souls of the departed (do penance on their behalf.). For, firstly, in the Scriptures to be baptized is often taken for afflictions, punishments and penances ; as in S. Luke, chap xii., where Our Lord speaking of his Passion says: I have a baptism wherewith I am to be baptized and how am I straitened until it be accomplished!-and in S. Mark. chap x., he says : Can you drink of the chalice that I drink of; or be baptized with the baptism wherewith I am baptized? -in which places Our Lord calls pains and afflictions baptism. This then is the sense of that Scripture:** if the dead rise not again, what is the use of mortifying and afflicting oneself, of praying and fasting for the dead? **And indeed this sentence of S. Paul resembles that of Maccabees quoted above: It is superfluous and vain to pray for the dead if the dead rise not again. They may twist and transform this text with as many interpretations as they like, and there will be none to properly fit into the Holy Letter except this.
But [secondly] it must not be said that the baptism of which S. Paul speaks is only a baptism of grief and tears, and not of fasts, prayers, and other works. For thus understood his conclusion would be very false. The conclusion he means to draw is that if the dead rise not again, and if the soul is mortal, in vain do we afflict ourselves for the dead. But, I pray you, should we not have more occasion to afflict ourselves by sadness for the death of friends if they rise no more - losing all hope of ever seeing them again - than if they do rise? He refers then to the voluntary afflictions which they undertook to impetrate the repose of the departed, which, questionless, would be undergone in vain if souls were mortal and the dead rose not again. Wherein we must keep in mind what was said above, that the article of the resurrection of the dead and that of the immortality of the soul were so joined together in the belief of the Jews that he who acknowledged the one acknowledged the other, and he who denied the one denied the other. It appears then by these words of S. Paul that prayer, fasting, and other holy afflictions were practiced for the departed. Now it was not for those in Paradise, who had no need of it, nor for those in hell, who could get no benefit from it; it was, then, for those in Purgatory. Thus did S. Ephrem expound it twelve hundred years ago (350ad), and so did the Fathers who disputed against the Petrobusians.
 
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catholic1:
there is no reference to purgatory in the bible james white made that very clear in his debate this was a money making venture by the church that i love the reformers were correct on there stance of the churvh 👍
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I see you’ve been duped!

Try reading the "B"ible again. This time read it slowly and prayerfully. Don’t read to prove Protestant opinions. Read it like you’ve never seen it before.

Purgatory is there, you just overlooked it like like the parts about being loyal and not schismatic.👍

You must be desperate if you’re using James White as a source for Sacred Scripture. His own sister saw through his flawed opinions.😉
 
From the earliest of times, the Fathers of the Church taught the existence of purgatory: Tertullian (Rome, 160 - 220?), Origen (Alexandria, 185 - 254?), Cyprian (Carthage, 200 - 258), Ambrose (Tier, 340 - 397), Augustine (Numidia, 354 - 430), Basil (Caesarea, 329 - 379), Gregory of Nazianzus (in Cappadocia, 329 - 389), John Chrysostom (Antioch, 349 - 407), Gregory the Great (Rome, 540 - 604), and many others.

I tried to avoid using my own “interpretations” and went to those whose teachings were approved by the early Church as exemplary of Her Teachings.

In any case, the Early approved teachers echo the belief of the Church. That is why they are approved. The Church passed judgement on any teaching. The early Church passed judgement on Prayer for the dead, and for Purgatory from the beginning. There are no contrary writings except for Aerius in the 300’s AD. He also preached against the Divinity of Christ, and his teachings were condemned.

=================================

Even those who offer diatribes against Purgatory admit that the Apostolic Church prayed for the dead, as well as offered sacrifices. They just deny it was for relief in purgatory. Why anyone would pray for a person in heaven or the lake of fire, they dismiss:

ARCHBISHOP USSHER ON PRAYERS FOR THE DEAD:

Anglican adversary of the Catholic Church:1800’s

, that the Commemoration and Prayers for the dead, used by the ancient Church, had any relation with their Purgatory; and therefore, whatsoever they were, Popish prayers we are sure they were not. I easily foresee, that the full opening of the judgment of the Fathers in this point will hardly stand with that brevity which I intended to use in treating of these questions; the particulars be so many, that necessarily do incur into the handling of this argument. But I suppose the reader will be content rather to dispense with me in that behalf, than be sent away unsatisfied in a matter wherein the adversary beareth himself confident beyond measure, that the whole stream of antiquity runneth clearly upon his side.

We have then, the witnesses of
  1. The OT Church,
  2. The Scriptures, and
  3. The Teachers of the ancient NT Church which She approved.
Against this history we have next to nothing for one thousand five hundred years. Then,
Martin Luther. Did he not purge the eyewitnesses of the OT, and then demand; where is your witness?

  1. *]Those of Calvin and the rest.
    *]Private interpretation.

    If there is controversy, who am I to believe? What does the Bible tell me about controversy? How shall it be solved? (Matt 18)

    So, after all this Biblical and AUTHORATATIVE evidence, one who refuses purgatory is doing so ONLY to the relish his own pride and/or distaste for the True Church of Christ.

    The End.
 
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