Purgatory: punishment or purification?

[Catherine_W]

Hello!

All of your answers have really helped me to understand purgatory. But I still am confused about how to explain/understand indulgences and prayer for souls in purgatory.

If purgatory is a process, a necessity, the consequence of repentant sins… then how can an indulgence influence this necessary process?

I understand that an analogy is not an exact representation, but the example posted by Mommyof02green about preparation/purification before going into the NICU seemed to make a lot of sense about Purgatory. But how can indulgences be applied to this analogy? If it is absolutely vital that one goes through certain steps to sterilize them selves before seeing the baby in the NICU, then how could an indulgence impact the situation? Would it be like someone helping you put on the gown and washing your hands for you?

To me indulgences are very confusing Analogies are easier for me to understand so this is kind of how I see it (and I know this must be incorrect). Say purgatory is like boot camp for the military on earth. It is hard, but very necessary. You wouldn’t want some one to skip out on a part of boot camp because you said a prayer for them, because then they would not have the correct training. So it seems like indulgences counter the importance of purgatory.

I want everyone to know, that even though I am confused, I trust that the church’s teaching is correct even though I can not yet grasp it. I am just attempting to explain my confusion, but not saying that I do not believe in the authority of the Catholic Church.

 

[Atk_Aheeni]

If I had a chance to atone for sins that may need atonment and I get to go to Purgatory well thanks be to god that meens he will be waiting to see me one day! That would be great.

 

[Mommyof02green]

Hello!

All of your answers have really helped me to understand purgatory. But I still am confused about how to explain/understand indulgences and prayer for souls in purgatory.

If purgatory is a process, a necessity, the consequence of repentant sins… then how can an indulgence influence this necessary process?

I understand that an analogy is not an exact representation, but the example posted by Mommyof02green about preparation/purification before going into the NICU seemed to make a lot of sense about Purgatory. But how can indulgences be applied to this analogy? If it is absolutely vital that one goes through certain steps to sterilize them selves before seeing the baby in the NICU, then how could an indulgence impact the situation? Would it be like someone helping you put on the gown and washing your hands for you?

To me indulgences are very confusing Analogies are easier for me to understand so this is kind of how I see it (and I know this must be incorrect). Say purgatory is like boot camp for the military on earth. It is hard, but very necessary. You wouldn’t want some one to skip out on a part of boot camp because you said a prayer for them, because then they would not have the correct training. So it seems like indulgences counter the importance of purgatory.

I want everyone to know, that even though I am confused, I trust that the church’s teaching is correct even though I can not yet grasp it. I am just attempting to explain my confusion, but not saying that I do not believe in the authority of the Catholic Church.

Yep I think it would be like someone helping you.

We say prayers for the people we know because we love them and we want them to be with God. We know that we can’t take their place but we are willing to give a helping hand. We are willing to say prayers to God that they get the aid they need to shorten the time in purgatory. We are willing to say prayers for “faster” healing for those here on Earth, and in my opinion we should be willing to say prayers for faster healing for those in purgatory.

The first time I went to see my baby in the NICU I didn’t know what to do. I just stood there wondering how do I go in, what do I do, where is this, where is that. I just stood there outside the door wondering, feeling lost and confused.

A lady saw me standing there. Looking lost, sad, confused. She asked me if my baby was in the NICU. I said yes, but I don’t know what to do. I knew enough that I couldn’t just walked in, but I didn’t know what to do. The lady told me wait here. She then went and told one of the nurses that I needed help.

So the nurse came over and asked me do you need help? I said yes, I don’t know what to do. She said well here is the sink and the soap, wash like this and that. Then you’ll want to get a gown here and a mask from there etc.

Now I would of gotten help from the nurse in the NICU if I stood there long enough, but I got help sooner and got in the NICU sooner, because a lady stopped and asked me if my baby was in there. I was able to do all the prep work needed faster and sooner, because the nurse told me were I could find everything.

In my opinion those were indulgence. The aid from the lady stopping to tell the nurse I needed help. The aid I got from the nurse telling me where I needed to find everything to finish my prep to enter the NICU. Those aids (indulgence) short my time needed for the prep work (purgatory).

Sure if I stood there long enough I may of figured it out on my own, but I got it done faster because I had little aids, hints and clues about what I was suppose to be doing.

Now does that means that the souls in purgatory don’t know what they are suppose to be doing? No, I believe that they do, but I think that they may need encouragement to get it done.

I think if it, like telling my child to clean his room. (He’s 5). Sometimes, it takes my child all day to clean his room. However, if I pop my head in the door and say, “Honey, you did a great job of cleaning up your books, now pick up your cars.” He’ll clean his room faster. He’s cleaning it faster, because he’s reminded of what he already has done and can see that there is not that much more left to do. If I left my child there alone, he would of taken 5 hours to clean his room. However, because I popped in and told him how well he was doing and how only this much more was left, it gave him the encouragement he needed and he was able to finish cleaning his room in 2 hours. Those encouragements shorten the time needed for him to clean his room. He had the same amount of work to do, but he did it in less time, because he had the goal in sight, and was reminded on how well he was doing.

That is how I see indulgence. They are the aids that people need form time to time, and they are the encouragement that people need from time to time.

 

[Eileen_T]

Coincidence? I was just reading this…

Suppose that one day a door opens, and a splendid being appears, extremely beautiful, of a beauty that has never been seen on earth. You are fascinated, overwhelmed by this being of light and beauty, even more so that this being shows that he is madly in love with you – you have never dreamed of being loved so much. You sense too that he has a great desire to draw you to him, to be one with you. And the fire of love which burns in your heart impels you to throw yourself into his arms. But wait – you realize at this moment that you haven’t washed for months and months, that you smell bad; you nose is running, your hair is greasy and matted, there are big dirty stains on your clothes, etc. So you say to yourself, “No, I just can’t present myself in this state. First I must go and wash: a good shower, then straight away I’ll come back.”

But the love which has been born in your heart is so intense, so burning, so strong, that this delay for the shower is absolutely unbearable. And the pain of the absence, even if it only lasts for a couple of minutes, is an atrocious wound in the heart, proportional to the intensity of the revelation of the love – it is a “love-wound”.

Purgatory is exactly this. It’s a delay imposed by our impurity, a delay before God’s embrace, a wound of love which causes intense suffering, a waiting, if you like, a nostalgia for love. It is precisely this burning, this longing which cleanses us of whatever is still impure in us. Purgatory is a place of desire, a made desire for God, desire for this God whom we already know, for we have seen him, but with whom we are not yet united.

It is from an interview with Maria Simma
freewebs.com/eucharist/ms1.htm

 

[Jeanette_L]

Hello!

All of your answers have really helped me to understand purgatory. But I still am confused about how to explain/understand indulgences and prayer for souls in purgatory.

If purgatory is a process, a necessity, the consequence of repentant sins… then how can an indulgence influence this necessary process?

I understand that an analogy is not an exact representation, but the example posted by Mommyof02green about preparation/purification before going into the NICU seemed to make a lot of sense about Purgatory. But how can indulgences be applied to this analogy? If it is absolutely vital that one goes through certain steps to sterilize them selves before seeing the baby in the NICU, then how could an indulgence impact the situation? Would it be like someone helping you put on the gown and washing your hands for you?

To me indulgences are very confusing Analogies are easier for me to understand so this is kind of how I see it (and I know this must be incorrect). Say purgatory is like boot camp for the military on earth. It is hard, but very necessary. You wouldn’t want some one to skip out on a part of boot camp because you said a prayer for them, because then they would not have the correct training. So it seems like indulgences counter the importance of purgatory.

I want everyone to know, that even though I am confused, I trust that the church’s teaching is correct even though I can not yet grasp it. I am just attempting to explain my confusion, but not saying that I do not believe in the authority of the Catholic Church.

I sympathize with you because I’m right there where you are! I understand the why, I don’t get the “short cuts” provided by indulgences and prayers for the souls. My mind doesn’t get it! If purgation is “necessary”, how can it suddenly be “not necessary”, to see it all the way through, right? Maybe someday we will find our answers. I ordered some reading materials on this subject last night. I will let you know what kind of insights I get from them!

I too, trust that the Church’s teaching is correct, I just would like to understand it more because as converts, we get asked the tough questions an awful lot!

 

[Eileen_T]

Sometimes a punishment is cut short because of prayer, fasting and almsgiving. Think of Jonah & Nineveh. It was going to be destroyed but the people repented and God’s Mercy prevailed. And in Sodom and Gomorrha which God intended to destroy until Abraham interceeded to allow the innocent to be evacuated.

The souls in Purgatory must remain until every last “penny” owed is paid for. Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” If he’s in heaven he doesn’t need mercy, if he’s in hell he won’t be given any. So Onesiphorus is in purgatory and the prayers offered by the living can help to pay off the debt owed to sin.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Sometimes a punishment is cut short because of prayer, fasting and almsgiving. Think of Jonah & Nineveh. It was going to be destroyed but the people repented and God’s Mercy prevailed. And in Sodom and Gomorrha which God intended to destroy until Abraham interceeded to allow the innocent to be evacuated.

The souls in Purgatory must remain until every last “penny” owed is paid for. Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” If he’s in heaven he doesn’t need mercy, if he’s in hell he won’t be given any. So Onesiphorus is in purgatory and the prayers offered by the living can help to pay off the debt owed to sin.

Coming from an Evangelical background, I never seem to comprehend the difference between eternal punishment and temporal punishment. It is so alien to us, to any form of theology we’ve ever been taught, it’s hard to grasp. And it’s not that it doesn’t make sense, because it does at times. My mind just never goes to the answer of temporal punishment and how it is not paid for by the sacrifice of Christ. Am I right in understanding this? That temporal punishment is not covered by the sacrifice on the cross?

 

[Scottgun]

Coming from an Evangelical background, I never seem to comprehend the difference between eternal punishment and temporal punishment. It is so alien to us, to any form of theology we’ve ever been taught, it’s hard to grasp. And it’s not that it doesn’t make sense, because it does at times. My mind just never goes to the answer of temporal punishment and how it is not paid for by the sacrifice of Christ. Am I right in understanding this? That temporal punishment is not covered by the sacrifice on the cross?

I apologize if you have heard this one before. But imagine I have a good friend and in moment of anger and malice I hurl a brick through his window. Later I feel sorrow and approach my friend with my repentance and ask forgiveness and he accepts. The friendship is restored.

BUT the window is still broken and basic justice says I fix the window, or arrange to fix it. There is sin and there is the damage done by it.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I apologize if you have heard this one before. But imagine I have a good friend and in moment of anger and malice I hurl a brick through his window. Later I feel sorrow and approach my friend with my repentance and ask forgiveness and he accepts. The friendship is restored.

BUT the window is still broken and basic justice says I fix the window, or arrange to fix it. There is sin and there is the damage done by it.

I understand the analogy, but if the window is not fixed in this life, how will it be fixed in purgatory? I mean, if it’s about paying temporally, any reparation say, how can it be paid there if not here? I mean, most temporal sin is committed against someone, and I’m assuming that this is why we must make reparation, to fix what has been broken (I’ve moved beyond windows at this point ). But if we do not fix what has been broken with whomever we have sinned against, how can we make up for that once we leave this world?

Am I making sense?

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Hello!

All of your answers have really helped me to understand purgatory. But I still am confused about how to explain/understand indulgences and prayer for souls in purgatory.

Say purgatory is like boot camp for the military on earth. It is hard, but very necessary. You wouldn’t want some one to skip out on a part of boot camp because you said a prayer for them, because then they would not have the correct training. So it seems like indulgences counter the importance of purgatory.

GI Joe’s girlfriend (Barbie) would be very foolish to write to GI Joe’s sergeant major asking for two weeks to be lopped off his rifle drill.

However there are things she can do to help. For instance if she writes GI Joe a cheerful letter, not full of all her personal problems and not mentioning Ken, and expressing encouragement, GI Joe has one less problem to worry about, and is more likely to pass out first time.

 

[mabowden]

Hello!

All of your answers have really helped me to understand purgatory. But I still am confused about how to explain/understand indulgences and prayer for souls in purgatory.

If purgatory is a process, a necessity, the consequence of repentant sins… then how can an indulgence influence this necessary process?

If you haven’t already, I would suggest that you read the Catechism’s definitions. You can find it online at the US Conference of Catholic Bishops’ web site at usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt2.htm#x

When you obtain an indulgence for someone in Purgatory, you are, I think you can say, mortifying yourself for someone else’s benefit. I have thought of something of an analogy I hope. Let’s say that you were out eating dinner at a large fancy restaurant, ordered a nice (and expensive) meal, only to realize after the fact that you forgot your purse/wallet. It’s a Friday night and there are a LOT of dishes to be cleaned, and you cleaning them is the only way to pay for your mistake (forgetfulness). So into the kitchen you go, with what will surely take you well into the night to clean all of the dishes, pots and pans that are there. I feel sorry for you having to stay there all night, so I offer to come into the kitchen and help you, but only for an hour. So I have helped you get out a little bit earlier than you would have otherwise. This would be something akin to a partial indulgence on your behalf. On the other hand, I may offer to the manager to pay for your bill out of my pocket. When that is done, you are free to leave. That would be akin to a plenary indulgence that I obtained on behalf of you. (I hate to use money here as an example due to all of the bad connotations that the so-called “purchase” of indulgences had prior to the Deformation, aka “Reformation”).

 

[steve99]

Purgatory As Punishment
In the section of the Catechism concerning Indulgences we read:
“To understand this doctrine and practices of the Church [Indulgences] it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God, and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the ‘eternal punishment’ of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial sin, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures [this means all created things not just living creatures], which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This punishment frees one from what is called the ‘temporal punishment’ of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but following on from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain a complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.” (CCC1472).

In the section on punishment (by the State) the Catechism says “The primary effect of punishment is to redress the disorder caused by the offence. When his punishment is voluntarily accepted by the offender, it take in the value of expiation (CCC 2266). The Collins Concise Dictionary defines expiate as “to atone for (sin or wrongdoing); make amends for.”
The Church teaches about purgatory in terms of punishment, not only in the Indulgences section of the Catechism, but also in the Apostolic Constitution of Paul VI on Indulgences (Jan 1 1967).

“It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God’s sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or ‘purifying’ punishments (chap 1, para 2).”

Our Protestant brethren argue that we cannot atone for our sins, only Jesus can, and that he made full atonement for all our sins.
“My children, I am writing this to prevent you from sinning; but if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the upright. He is the sacrifice to expiate our sins, and not only ours, but also those of the whole world.” (1 Jn 2:1)
To understand this we have to two of the liabilities of sin - the liability of punishment and the liability of restitution. “I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless.” (Is 13;11). Judgement pertains even to the smallest sins: “For God will bring every deed into judgement, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.” (Eccl. 12:14)’

If I do something wrong, for example steal a car, I am liable for punishment for that, I also have a duty to return the car to the rightful owner, or to compensate him/her if I am unable to do that (liability of restitution)…

We also need to understand the notion of satisfaction.
In the section on Satisfaction (CCC 1459) the Catechism defines three effects of sin:
1.Wrong we have done to others, which we should do what is possible to redress.
2.Weakens our relationship with God
3.Spiritually weakens/damages the sinner himself.

It says “Absolution [forgiveness] takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin; he must ‘make satisfaction for’ or ‘expiate’ his sins. This satisfaction is called ‘penance’” (CCC 1459). However it goes on to say “Such penances help to configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our since once for all.” (CCC 1460).

contd.

 

[steve99]

Purgatory As Punishment - contd.

The quote from the Catechism in the previous post talks about the double consequence of sin. Firstly the eternal punishment (i.e. forever in hell) and temporal punishment (for a time).
If I commit a mortal sin I am turning my back on God and rejecting his love and his grace. The punishment for this is infinite since it lasts for ever. There is no way I can ever expiate this. When I repent and turn back to God I appropriate the atonement of Christ, since only he can pay (and has paid) the price for this.

If I commit a venial sin I have not turned away from God, but, as it says above, I have weakened my relationship with him. I have also turned *towards *something else, some created thing.
By our repentance and God’s forgiveness we restore that relationship with God that was either lost totally in mortal sin, or damaged in venial sin. But though the relationship may be restored the debt of sin remains. Take the case of a child who has been told not to play near the house with a hard ball. He does so, and smashes a neighbour’s window. He may say sorry and his father forgives him and they are fully reconciled, but there may still be a punishment for his disobedience, and restitution has to be made for the broken window.

But we may ask, and Protestants do, has not Christ paid all our debts by his suffering and death on the cross? Yes he has as we saw in the quote 1Jn 2:1 above. And that also removes both the liability of guilt and the liability of punishment. But, and there is a but.

But that expiation for our sins is not given without some cost on our side. God does not give us a licence to commit (venial) sins with impunity. To acquire that payment of our debts we have to join with Christ in his suffering on the cross, or to be “configured with Christ” (as the Catechism puts it), or be “likened unto Christ” as St. Thomas Aquinas puts it.

He says “In order to secure the effects of Christ’s Passion, we must be likened unto Him. Now we are likened unto Him sacramentally in Baptism, according to Rom 6:4 ‘For we are buried together with Him by baptism into death.’ Hence no punishment of satisfaction is imposed upon men at their baptism since they are fully delivered by Christ’s satisfaction. But because it is written (1.Pt 3:18), ‘Christ died’ but ‘once for our sins,’ therefore a man cannot a second time be likened unto Christ’s death by the sacrament of Baptism. Hence it is necessary that those who sin after Baptism be likened unto Christ suffering by some form of punishment or suffering which they endure in their own person; yet, by the co-operation of Christ’s satisfaction, much lighter penalty suffices than one that is proportionate to the sin.”

Take the example above, of the child and the broken window. He cannot afford to pay for the broken windows, and his father may pay the cost of repairing the window, but he may stop the child’s pocket money for a week as a punishment and as the child’s contribution to the restoration of the disorder he has caused.

 

[Pryority7]

I understand the analogy, but if the window is not fixed in this life, how will it be fixed in purgatory? I mean, if it’s about paying temporally, any reparation say, how can it be paid there if not here? I mean, most temporal sin is committed against someone, and I’m assuming that this is why we must make reparation, to fix what has been broken (I’ve moved beyond windows at this point ). But if we do not fix what has been broken with whomever we have sinned against, how can we make up for that once we leave this world?

Am I making sense?

Very good question…the answer is that we dont’ really “make up” per say the damage we have inflicted on someone else in purgatory. There are natural consequences to hurting someone that will occur to us in this life, and God will use anything, even suffering…to cleanse us of that consequence. If at the point of my death that cleansing is still not completed through my daily walk with Him, then it will be completed as I’m going to heaven. That completion is purgatory…we will see everything we have become and everything we have done…and God will wipe away our tears…that wiping away is purgatory. Does this help?
P7

 

[steve99]

Very good question…the answer is that we dont’ really “make up” per say the damage we have inflicted on someone else in purgatory. There are natural consequences to hurting someone that will occur to us in this life, and God will use anything, even suffering…to cleanse us of that consequence. If at the point of my death that cleansing is still not completed through my daily walk with Him, then it will be completed as I’m going to heaven. That completion is purgatory…we will see everything we have become and everything we have done…and God will wipe away our tears…that wiping away is purgatory. Does this help?
P7

Hey, that’s a good way of putting it. I must remember that,

 

[Jeanette_L]

Very good question…the answer is that we dont’ really “make up” per say the damage we have inflicted on someone else in purgatory. There are natural consequences to hurting someone that will occur to us in this life, and God will use anything, even suffering…to cleanse us of that consequence. If at the point of my death that cleansing is still not completed through my daily walk with Him, then it will be completed as I’m going to heaven. That completion is purgatory…we will see everything we have become and everything we have done…and God will wipe away our tears…that wiping away is purgatory. Does this help?
P7

Actually, it does help quite a bit, but I have to see things a little differently than the original analogy.

In other words, when we say the window has to be repaired as part of the solution to the broken window, the repair is actually to us and not to it (for simplicity’s sake).

Am I on the right track now?

 

[Pryority7]

Actually, it does help quite a bit, but I have to see things a little differently than the original analogy.

In other words, when we say the window has to be repaired as part of the solution to the broken window, the repair is actually to us and not to it (for simplicity’s sake).

Am I on the right track now?

Yep…you’re getting there…pretty good…
P7