Purgatory question

[RobbyS]

This is true and it would rule out purgatory.

No, it does not; it only reminds us that the image that Dante presents of Purgatory is that work of a poet. The doctrine of Purgatory derives from the discussion about what happens to
a person immediately after death. In the end, each soul will have one of two fates: salvation or damnation. Purgatory is literary that “place” where a soul finds himself under judgement, and finally aware of both his unworthiness, of his separation from Christ but also of Christ’s love.

 

[RobbyS]

No, it does not; it only reminds us that the image that Dante presents of Purgatory is that work of a poet. The doctrine of Purgatory derives from the discussion about what happens to
a person immediately after death. In the end, each soul will have one of two fates: salvation or damnation. Purgatory is literary that “place” where a soul finds himself under judgement, and finally aware of both his unworthiness, of his separation from Christ but also of Christ’s love.

 

[teak421]

I have used a similar proof from Scripture:
*1. A person while on earth is prone to sin.
2. In heaven, a person is no longer prone to sin.
3. There will therefore be a purification at death to transform a soul.
*Think of temporal punishment for sin as repairing damage for sin. The sin is forgiven. The damage must then be repaired. Some of the damage of sin includes a tendency or habit for sin. We can have no damage or stain on our soul if we are to be fully united to God in heaven.

So… What you are saying is that the sin EVENT has been forgiven… For example, sin allowed me to cheat on my wife (I wouldn’t have to worry about God on this one! My wife would kill me…) I was forgiven (after I repented) for the sin EVENT… Then, after I die, purgatory is the process of removing the sin nature so that there is no more chance for a sin event to happen…???

In RCIA and frankly, this one causes me pause from my 20 years of protestantism.

teak

 

[NotWorthy]

So… What you are saying is that the sin EVENT has been forgiven… For example, sin allowed me to cheat on my wife (I wouldn’t have to worry about God on this one! My wife would kill me…) I was forgiven (after I repented) for the sin EVENT… Then, after I die, purgatory is the process of removing the sin nature so that there is no more chance for a sin event to happen…???

In RCIA and frankly, this one causes me pause from my 20 years of protestantism.

teak

I don’t think this is quite the case. There is no temptation to sin in Purgatory or Heaven, in my opinion.

Remember, King David was forgiven, after his seemingly perfect contrition, but their baby was still prevented from living. There is a temporal punishment for our sins that still must be purged.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

Why, if Jesus died on the cross for our sins to take away our sins, why would we go to Purgatory?

We all try to avoid sin. In so doing, we grow in holiness as time goes by. We are being perfected. The final bit of sanctification upon death is the completion of that process. We call that Purgatory - a “purging” of whatever imperfections are left at the end of life, and whatever temporal punishments we did not endure due to our sins. God’s perfect justice demands the latter, and entrance into heaven where “nothing unclean” can enter demands the former.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I have been saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the “burning” ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God.

This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God’s love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - “purged” - away in the fire of Gods love. There’s an old children’s song, “God loves you just the way you are, but much too much to let you stay that way.” Ahh, yes. Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.

 

[jean8]

This reeks of bending the Scripture to fit your need.

What is finished?

Read Maccabees one more time.

Also, I asked earlier, and no answers yet.

God forgave David for Bath-sheba-gate. But was that the end of the story?

God bless you,
jean8

Not Worthy,
Jesus died for your sins and your asking, "What is finished? " Would you like to die on the cross for your own sins or would you rather believe Jesus finished the work God the Father gave him to do for us, as believers. You are a Christian aren’t you.
I do not accept Maccabees as part of the inspired word of God.
Maybe purgatory does exist,(Dogma?) but isn’t mentioned in the Bible.
When Christ said, “It is finished” that means as the Incarnated Son , he finshed all the work God the Father gave him to do for our salvation. This should fill your heart with on ending joy. Praise the Lord!

God bless you,
jean8

 

[NotWorthy]

jean8:

Not Worthy,
Jesus died for your sins and your asking, "What is finished? " Would you like to die on the cross for your own sins or would you rather believe Jesus finished the work God the Father gave him to do for us, as believers. You are a Christian aren’t you.

Just what are you saying, here? I am Christian, of course. Just check my profile.

I do not accept Maccabees as part of the inspired word of God.

I’m sorry you follow the rule of man, who took it out of the bible around the 15th century.

Maybe purgatory does exist,(Dogma?) but isn’t mentioned in the Bible.

Yeah, its right next to Trinity…

What’s your point?

When Christ said, “It is finished” that means as the Incarnated Son , he finshed all the work God the Father gave him to do for our salvation. This should fill your heart with on ending joy. Praise the Lord!

Where does the Bible say that this is what this means?

He didn’t finish all His Work. He spent 40 days teaching the Apostle how to do the kingdom.

 

[guanophore]

How do you know its not a place? We know that when a person dies they are no longer here on earth and they go somewhere.

We know that, for the most part, our bodies remain here. This is the part of us that is within the boundary of time. The Soul and Spirit exist outside of the timeline.

It is difficult for beings who are created to exist within time to conceptualize states that are not bound to time.

This is true and it would rule out purgatory.

Only if you think that those in Purgatory are separated from Christ, which they are not!

 

[guanophore]

So… What you are saying is that the sin EVENT has been forgiven… For example, sin allowed me to cheat on my wife (I wouldn’t have to worry about God on this one! My wife would kill me…) I was forgiven (after I repented) for the sin EVENT… Then, after I die, purgatory is the process of removing the sin nature so that there is no more chance for a sin event to happen…???

In RCIA and frankly, this one causes me pause from my 20 years of protestantism.

teak

I don’t know if “event” is the right word. It is more than just the event itself, but the eternal consequence of the action.

I do agree that our sin nature is purged before we can be in the presence of God. Protestants believe this too, but instead of thinking of it as “purgation” (purging) they think that it happens in “a moment, in the twinkling of an eye”. We are changed, and the perishable becomes imperishable.

The change that we undergo in order to be purified for heaven does involve the transformation of the sin nature, since nothing impure can be in HIs presence.

But also it involves the wiping away of all the temporal consequences of the sins. The wound that you would have incurred to yourself with adultery is also cleansed and healed.

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4054666]We know that, for the most part, our bodies remain here. This is the part of us that is within the boundary of time. The Soul and Spirit exist outside of the timeline.

How do you know this? Is this based on some kind of revelation you may have had?

It is difficult for beings who are created to exist within time to conceptualize states that are not bound to time.

Only if you think that those in Purgatory are separated from Christ, which they are not!

 

[guanophore]

How do you know this? Is this based on some kind of revelation you may have had?

No, this is the Teaching of Jesus.

 

[Popes_Soldier]

…I do agree that our sin nature is purged before we can be in the presence of God. Protestants believe this too, but instead of thinking of it as “purgation” (purging) they think that it happens in “a moment, in the twinkling of an eye”…

Actually, the Church has not defined how long Purgatory lasts. It may well happen in a twinkling of an eye. This is one of those areas where there need be no argument between Catholics and protestants. Personally, the only true difference between Catholic and protestants on this issue, if you rfeally dig deep, is that we give the whole thing a name: Purgatory.

We ALL agree that we are sinners at the moment of death.
We ALL agree that nothing unclean can enter into God’s presence.

So between death and glory, what changes us? The protestants say it just happens. We call this “happening” Purgatory. Are our positions really that far apart?

And nobody commented on my first post:

We all try to avoid sin. In so doing, we grow in holiness as time goes by. We are being perfected. The final bit of sanctification upon death is the completion of that process. We call that Purgatory - a “purging” of whatever imperfections are left at the end of life, and whatever temporal punishments we did not endure due to our sins. God’s perfect justice demands the latter, and entrance into heaven where “nothing unclean” can enter demands the former.

Let me approach this another way which may clarify what I have been saying. God is a consuming fire. In fact the word Seraphim actually comes from the Hebrew which means the “burning” ones. They burn with the flame that is God because they are near God.

This is why nothing unclean can enter heaven. It would burn away in a flash in the presence of God. You can think of Purgatory as the fire of God’s love. When you die and stand before God, whatever imperfections are left in you, whatever inclinations to sin you were not able to master in this life, all this will be burned - “purged” - away in the fire of Gods love. There’s an old children’s song, “God loves you just the way you are, but much too much to let you stay that way.” Ahh, yes. Out of the mouths of babes, eh?

Picture the sequence: You become a Christian, and through your life you grow, in holiness and sancification. You sin less and less as the years pass. Just before you die, you have run a good race, but you are not yet perfect. Then you pass from this realm and stand before God, and WHOOSSHHHH, that last bit of imperfection is blasted away from you when you come into the presence of a perfection that our mortal minds cannot even fathom.

This is Purgatory: Not a place, not a second chance, but the fire of the love of the almighty eternal God.

 

[teak421]

Actually, the Church has not defined how long Purgatory lasts. It may well happen in a twinkling of an eye. This is one of those areas where there need be no argument between Catholics and protestants. Personally, the only true difference between Catholic and protestants on this issue, if you rfeally dig deep, is that we give the whole thing a name: Purgatory.

We ALL agree that we are sinners at the moment of death.
We ALL agree that nothing unclean can enter into God’s presence.

So between death and glory, what changes us? The protestants say it just happens. We call this “happening” Purgatory. Are our positions really that far apart?

And nobody commented on my first post:

The WE ALL agree is just perfect! You summed it up well…

teak

 

[justasking4]

No, this is the Teaching of Jesus.

Where did He teach this? Chapter and verse would help.

 

[guanophore]

Where did He teach this? Chapter and verse would help.

Luke 20:37-39
37 And the fact that the dead are raised Moses himself showed, in the story about the bush, where he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive."

All are alive unto Him. Those who are separated from their bodies after having passed from this life are no less alive to Him. And, death cannot separate us from Him, or from one another. We are all members of His mystical Body, joined unto the eternal Head.