Purgatory Question

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fisherman_carl

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Which is more true

A., We pray for those in purgatory that God will release them out of prison sooner. In other words we are asking God to be more merciful?

Or

B… We pray for those in Purgatory so that they may come to accept God’s love so that they can know God’s mercy.

The first one seems to be praying for God to be more merciful. But are we more merciful than God? That doesn’t make sense to me. The second one seems to make more sense.

So how does our prayers help those in purgatory? Is it just a mystery how it works?
 
Neither option is really correct. Those in purgatory have a “debt.” When we pray for them, it is like helping a friend pay off a debt.
 
This is something I have also been curious about also.

Can you point to where you got the term “debt”? Are you simply using it as an analogy?

In Corinthians there is this relevant passage:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 3:13-15[/BIBLEDRB]

This makes me think “impurities” would be a better word than “debt.” I would assume the
mechanics of this (so to speak) would be similar to how they are on Earth. While people are alive, we can pray that their impurities will be removed. e.g. We can pray for a drunkard that he give up drink.

There is sure to be some relevant section in the CCC on this. I will have to look.
 
Which is more true

A., We pray for those in purgatory that God will release them out of prison sooner. In other words we are asking God to be more merciful?

Or

B… We pray for those in Purgatory so that they may come to accept God’s love so that they can know God’s mercy.

The first one seems to be praying for God to be more merciful. But are we more merciful than God? That doesn’t make sense to me. The second one seems to make more sense.

So how does our prayers help those in purgatory? Is it just a mystery how it works?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the “unhealthy attachment to creatures” must be purified.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83
 
we go to purgatory because not all of our sins are forgiven. God is merciful and HE doesnt want to see suffering souls. His Mercy wants to free them BUT HIS JUSTICE DEMANDS IT because of their sins when they lived on earth. It is easy to forgive but hard to forget.
just a tought…🙂
 
Which is more true

A., We pray for those in purgatory that God will release them out of prison sooner. In other words we are asking God to be more merciful?

. . .
I like to think of it as God asking us to be a little more merciful. I think He offers us an invitation to share in His work.

The words of our Blessed Lord as recorded in the diary of St. Faustina, and used as a meditation for Day 8 of the Novena to The Divine Mercy :
"Today bring to Me the Souls who are in the prison of Purgatory, and immerse them in the abyss of My mercy. Let the torrents of My Blood cool down their scorching flames. All these souls are greatly loved by Me. They are making retribution to My justice. It is in your power to bring them relief. Draw all the indulgences from the treasury of My Church and offer them on their behalf. Oh, if you only knew the torments they suffer, you would continually offer for them the alms of the spirit and pay off their debt to My justice."
🙂
 
I say a prayer for the souls in purgatory everyday
5 Apostle Creeds
1 Hail Holy Queen
1Our Father
1 Hail Mary
1 Glory Be
1 Eternal Rest
 
This is something I have also been curious about also.

Can you point to where you got the term “debt”? Are you simply using it as an analogy?

In Corinthians there is this relevant passage:

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 3:13-15[/BIBLEDRB]

This makes me think “impurities” would be a better word than “debt.” I would assume the
mechanics of this (so to speak) would be similar to how they are on Earth. While people are alive, we can pray that their impurities will be removed. e.g. We can pray for a drunkard that he give up drink.

There is sure to be some relevant section in the CCC on this. I will have to look.
“I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” matt 5:26

This seems to also indicate a debt.
 
we go to purgatory because not all of our sins are forgiven. God is merciful and HE doesnt want to see suffering souls. His Mercy wants to free them BUT HIS JUSTICE DEMANDS IT because of their sins when they lived on earth. It is easy to forgive but hard to forget.
just a tought…🙂
All of our sins are forgiven or we would be in Hell not Purgatory. However we may have sins that are unknown to us till purgatory
 
All of our sins are forgiven or we would be in Hell not Purgatory. However we may have sins that are unknown to us till purgatory
This is exactly what I was thinking. Our sins are forgiven, but the temporal effects of those sins still remain. Fr. Serpa said on the last Chaplain Is In, that it is similar to if you were over at a friend’s house and spilled a drink all over the floor. You ask for their forgiveness and they say “oh that’s fine don’t worry about it.” The drink is still on the floor and needs to be cleaned up, but the act of spilling the drink has been forgiven.
 
My Jesus, by the sorrows Thou didst suffer in Thine agony in the Garden, in Thy scourging and crowning with thorns, in the way to Calvary, in Thy crucifixion and death, have mercy on the souls in purgatory, and especially on those that are most forsaken; do Thou deliver them from the dire torments they endure; call them and admit them to Thy most sweet embrace in paradise.
 
Neither option is really correct. Those in purgatory have a “debt.” When we pray for them, it is like helping a friend pay off a debt.
That is really like option A. Because you are praying for God to forgive a debt. But do we love the people in purgatory more than God that we have to try to change God so that he will be more merciful to them?

The second option makes more sense to me. Instead of praying to change God we are praying to change the person in purgatory. Otherwise if it is just a debt what determines when a person is released? When the the debt is paid? Is that some arbitrary number? Perfect justice and mercy would seek the rehabilitation of the person, not just to satisfy some arbitrary number of punishments.

Since God is love his ultimate goal should be to restore us. He bears no grudges. Nor does he delight in punishment.
 
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the “unhealthy attachment to creatures” must be purified.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83
The cat seems to be saying we are praying for the conversion of the person in purgatory. Which is more like option B because we are praying for a change in the person rather than for God to be more merciful. How can God be more merciful? He is already perfect.
 
I like to think of it as God asking us to be a little more merciful. I think He offers us an invitation to share in His work.

🙂
Okay, if God is asking us to be more merciful and join in his work then just what is his work in purgatory? Is it merely to administer a series of punishments to satisfy offended justice or is it to bring about the conversion of sinners?

And. If it merely to satisfy justice does that mean I get to take my vengeance out on those who wrong me to satisfy my sense of wounded justice?

But if purgatory is about conversion and rehab then it is more about mercy than punishment.
 
Some bloopers of biblical proportions written by Sunday School students of both the Christian and Jewish persuasion:

In the first book of the bible, Guinessis, God got tired of creating the world, so he took the Sabbath off.

Adam & Eve were created from an apple tree.

Noah’s wife was called Joan of Ark.

Noah built the ark, which the animals came on in pears.

Lot’s wife was a pillar of salt by day, but a ball of fire by night.

The Jews were a proud people and throughout history they had trouble with unsympathetic Genitals.

Sampson was a strongman who let himself be led astray by a jezebel like Delilah.

Sampson slated the Philistines with the axe of apostles.

Moses led the Hebrews to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread, which is bread made without any ingredients.

The Egyptians were all drowned in the dessert.

Afterward, Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the Ten Amendments.

The first commandment was when Eve told Adam to eat the apple.

The Fifth Commandment is humor thy mother and father.

The Seventh Commandment is thou shalt not admit adultery.

Moses died before he ever reached the UK. Then, Joshua led the Hebrews in the Battle of Geritol.

The greatest miracle in the Bible is when Joshua told his son to stand still and he obeyed him.

David was a Hebrew king skilled at playing the liar. He fought with the Finkelsteins, a race of people who lived in the biblical times.

Solomon, one of David’s sons, has 300 wives and 700 porcupines.

When Mary heard that she was the Mother of Jesus, she sang the Magna Carta.

When the three wise guys from the East Side arrived, they found Jesus and the manager.

Jesus was born because Mary had an emaculate contraption.

St. John, the Blacksmith, dumped water on his head.

Jesus enunciated the Golden Rule, which says to do one to others before they do one to you.

He also explained, “Man doth not live by sweat alone.”

The people who followed the Lord were called the 12 decibels.

The epistles were the wives of the apostles.

One of the opossums was St. Matthew, who was by profession a taximan.

St. Paul cavorted to Christianity. He preached holy acrimony, which is another name for marriage.

A Christian should have only one wife. This is called monotony.
 
The cat seems to be saying we are praying for the conversion of the person in purgatory. Which is more like option B because we are praying for a change in the person rather than for God to be more merciful. How can God be more merciful? He is already perfect.
Remission of sins is partial because the guilt is remitted and only some of the temporal results. How do we receive mercy?

Though confession (admission) and indulgences - asking God per modum suffragii, i.e., by means of intercession, to remit the sufferings of the faithfully departed if still in purgatory (suffage: a prayer or act of intercession or supplication).1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.
1847 "God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us."116 To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults.
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."117
1863 Venial sin weakens charity; it manifests a disordered affection for created goods; it impedes the soul’s progress in the exercise of the virtues and the practice of the moral good; it merits temporal punishment. Deliberate and unrepented venial sin disposes us little by little to commit mortal sin. However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134 While he is in the flesh, man cannot help but have at least some light sins. But do not despise these sins which we call “light”: if you take them for light when you weigh them, tremble when you count them. A number of light objects makes a great mass; a number of drops fills a river; a number of grains makes a heap. What then is our hope? Above all, confession.135​
 
Some bloopers of biblical proportions written by Sunday School students of both the Christian and Jewish persuasion:

In the first book of the bible, Guinessis, God got tired of creating the world, so he took the Sabbath off.

Adam & Eve were created from an apple tree.

Noah’s wife was called Joan of Ark.

Noah built the ark, which the animals came on in pears.

Lot’s wife was a pillar of salt by day, but a ball of fire by night.

The Jews were a proud people and throughout history they had trouble with unsympathetic Genitals.

Sampson was a strongman who let himself be led astray by a jezebel like Delilah.

Sampson slated the Philistines with the axe of apostles.

Moses led the Hebrews to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread, which is bread made without any ingredients.

The Egyptians were all drowned in the dessert.

Afterward, Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the Ten Amendments.

The first commandment was when Eve told Adam to eat the apple.

The Fifth Commandment is humor thy mother and father.

The Seventh Commandment is thou shalt not admit adultery.

Moses died before he ever reached the UK. Then, Joshua led the Hebrews in the Battle of Geritol.

The greatest miracle in the Bible is when Joshua told his son to stand still and he obeyed him.

David was a Hebrew king skilled at playing the liar. He fought with the Finkelsteins, a race of people who lived in the biblical times.

Solomon, one of David’s sons, has 300 wives and 700 porcupines.

When Mary heard that she was the Mother of Jesus, she sang the Magna Carta.

When the three wise guys from the East Side arrived, they found Jesus and the manager.

Jesus was born because Mary had an emaculate contraption.

St. John, the Blacksmith, dumped water on his head.

Jesus enunciated the Golden Rule, which says to do one to others before they do one to you.

He also explained, “Man doth not live by sweat alone.”

The people who followed the Lord were called the 12 decibels.

The epistles were the wives of the apostles.

One of the opossums was St. Matthew, who was by profession a taximan.

St. Paul cavorted to Christianity. He preached holy acrimony, which is another name for marriage.

A Christian should have only one wife. This is called monotony.
Oops. This somehow got put in the wrong thread.
 
Purgatory is where/how our natures are perfected by grace - where/how we are purged of our attachments/inclinations towards any thing that is not of God. Simultaneously, Purgatory is where/how our *love for God *is perfected, and concupiscense (the urge to disobey His will even at the risk of offending Him) is totally eliminated from our natures, returning us to the primitive spiritual state in which man was first created.

This is why everyone in heaven retains their free will, and yet, amazingly, no one ever sins there. Just as Mary was perfected by grace at her very conception, rendering her sinless, so are we perfected by grace upon our birth into eternal life. Our minds and wills and hearts are thereby perfectly aligned with those of Christ - the One Who simply cannot offend His Father. “Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”.

When we are praying for souls in Purgatory we are actually praying for graces for them (for their speedy perfection) - it is simply intercessory prayer.

Incidentally, here’s my favorite quote on praying for the dead:

“For the Lord, the past does not exist; the future does not exist. Everything is an eternal present… even now I can pray for the happy death of my great-grandfather!” ~ Padre Pio

Not only is this hugely consoling, it’s great apologetics too! 🙂

God bless you all.

1000 Souls by Donna Cori Gibson: youtube.com/watch?v=Bp7VLG8_bVk
 
The Apparitions of St Faustina (Kowalska) and Divine Mercy Sunday - the Second Sunday of Easter - (formerly known as Low Sunday) this is major: Jesus in one of his appearances to St Faustina said that his heart is overflowing to bursting with Mercy for the sinful and temporarily lost souls of humanity IF Only They Would Realise This And Come Back To Him. He gave lots of instructions to St Faustina and in particular to pass on the content of His instructions to the Bishops of Poland. This happened before her death in 1938 (She was spared the Holocaust). Jesus promised that if anyone came to Mass and Holy Communion on Divine Mercy Sunday, recited either alone or with a group in Church or anywhere and fulfilled the other obligations embodied in the Divine Mercy Novena (eg Reconciliation at least once in the Octave) - that person or anyone that the prayers are directed to will have been forgiven entirely the debt of all past sins and including any debt which would have been left over after death!!

This is so powerful and should be broadcast to all parishes (preferably in the exact words of Jesus when instructing St Faustina) by parish priests under directions from their diocesan Bishops throughout Lent and Easter and to be included in the weekly Newsletters of each Parish leading up to Divine Mercy Sunday.

I will probably publish a lot more on this subject from time to time in the future. I am currently reading extracts from the diaries of St Faustina Kowalska and I recommend every Catholic family should endeavour to get hold of a copy.

God Bless you all, and

Keep the Faith and keep praying.
 
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