Purgatory questions

[herbalt]

1. Can the work of santification be complete in a persons life in this life so that they skip purgatory? Who are the examples
2. Do infants skip purgatory if they die in their infancy after baptism since they have not willfully comitted any sins?
3. If an adult dies immediately after being baptized do they skip purgatory?

Thanks!

 

[Spirithound]

1. Can the work of santification be complete in a persons life in this life so that they skip purgatory? Who are the examples
2. Do infants skip purgatory if they die in their infancy after baptism since they have not willfully comitted any sins?
3. If an adult dies immediately after being baptized do they skip purgatory?

Thanks!

1. Yes, although we can’t really distinguish between those who have skipped Purgatory, and those who just have been recognized as Saints. Most of the early martyrs were acclaimed as saints very near after their deaths, so perhaps they have skipped Purgatory.
2. Yes, baptism removes ALL stain of sin.
3. Yes, for the same reason.

 

[twb1621]

1. Yes, although we can’t really distinguish between those who have skipped Purgatory, and those who just have been recognized as Saints. Most of the early martyrs were acclaimed as saints very near after their deaths, so perhaps they have skipped Purgatory.
2. Yes, baptism removes ALL stain of sin.
3. Yes, for the same reason.

I agree with spirithound fully.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Spirithound and twb1621,

Although I agree with you both on points #1 and #2, I disagree, in a certain respect on point #3.

An adult may receive the sacrament of Baptism validly, but not completely efficaciously. If they do not have sorrow or attrition for all of their serious sins, then they place an obstacle against two of the effects of baptism: forgiveness of sin and sanctifying grace. They do receive the effect of a permanent character, however.

They would, in that case, need to have sorrow for their sins sometime later, and receiving forgiveness either through sacramental absolution in Confession, or through Anointing of the Sick, or through some other extra-sacramental means.

So, in respect to #3, it seems it is possible that an adult may receive a valid baptism, then die, but not go to heaven.

What do you think?
VC

 

[LilyM]

Spirithound and twb1621,

Although I agree with you both on points #1 and #2, I disagree, in a certain respect on point #3.

An adult may receive the sacrament of Baptism validly, but not completely efficaciously. If they do not have sorrow or attrition for all of their serious sins, then they place an obstacle against two of the effects of baptism: forgiveness of sin and sanctifying grace. They do receive the effect of a permanent character, however.

They would, in that case, need to have sorrow for their sins sometime later, and receiving forgiveness either through sacramental absolution in Confession, or through Anointing of the Sick, or through some other extra-sacramental means.

So, in respect to #3, it seems it is possible that an adult may receive a valid baptism, then die, but not go to heaven.

What do you think?
VC

Quite possibly - more simply, an adult may be baptised but then commit an unrepentant mortal sin in between the moment of baptism and the moment of death (and it only takes a moment to commit some mortal sins) … in which case they would not only not go straight to heaven but wouldn’t go to purgatory either, but straight to the other place …

 

[twb1621]

Spirithound and twb1621,

Although I agree with you both on points #1 and #2, I disagree, in a certain respect on point #3.

An adult may receive the sacrament of Baptism validly, but not completely efficaciously. If they do not have sorrow or attrition for all of their serious sins, then they place an obstacle against two of the effects of baptism: forgiveness of sin and sanctifying grace. They do receive the effect of a permanent character, however.

They would, in that case, need to have sorrow for their sins sometime later, and receiving forgiveness either through sacramental absolution in Confession, or through Anointing of the Sick, or through some other extra-sacramental means.

So, in respect to #3, it seems it is possible that an adult may receive a valid baptism, then die, but not go to heaven.

What do you think?
VC

You have raised the most important factor, that there must be a sincere heart in the acceptance of the sacrement of Baptism but it must be there at that time. If they died immediately after Baptism, according to Church teaching, they need no other penance however, only God knows a man’s heart as we already realize. Although I must add that with an adult, the sorrow you speak of should be there along with the desire to be Baptised in the first place.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Although I must add that with an adult, the sorrow you speak of should be there along with the desire to be Baptised in the first place.

Right. The sorrow should be there. . but it is possible to receive a valid sacrament of baptism, receive the indelible character of being a baptized Christian – and not receive forgiveness of sins.

So, it is possible that if someone dies immediately after being baptized, and yet was retaining a mortal sin (i.e. was not sorry for it) that they would not be in the state of grace. The point is, I think, that in an conscious adult, death bed baptisms don’t take the place of sorrow for sin.

VC

 

[Spirithound]

Right. The sorrow should be there. . but it is possible to receive a valid sacrament of baptism, receive the indelible character of being a baptized Christian – and not receive forgiveness of sins.

So, it is possible that if someone dies immediately after being baptized, and yet was retaining a mortal sin (i.e. was not sorry for it) that they would not be in the state of grace. The point is, I think, that in an conscious adult, death bed baptisms don’t take the place of sorrow for sin.

VC

So would perfect contrition be necessary, or is imperfect contrition sufficient?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Hi Spirithound,

Attrition – imperfect contrition. And the general teaching is that it must have four qualities, and be: Interior, Supernatural, Sovereign, and Universal.

Here is the Catechism of St. Pius X regarding sorrow for sin in an adult baptism:
**14 Q: When the person who is being baptized is an adult, what dispositions should he have? **

A: An adult who is being baptized, besides faith, should have at least imperfect contrition for the mortal sins he may have committed.

**15 Q: If an adult in mortal sin was baptized without such sorrow, what would he receive? **
A: If an adult was baptized in mortal sin without such sorrow he would receive the character of Baptism, but not the remission of his sins nor sanctifying grace. And these two effects would be suspended, until the obstacle is removed by perfect contrition or by the sacrament of Penance.
What do you think?
VC

 

[Spirithound]

Hi Spirithound,
<<space-saving snip >>
What do you think?
VC

I think the Catechism of St. Pius X is a reliable document.
So, the other part of the question, as i read it, would be whether adult baptism could be sufficient for remission of all temporal penalties of sin.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

So, the other part of the question, as i read it, would be whether adult baptism could be sufficient for remission of all temporal penalties of sin.

I think absolutely yes.

Here, for instance is Baltimore Catechism 3, on that:

Q. 627. Are actual sins ever remitted by Baptism?
A. Actual sins and all the punishment due to them are remitted by Baptism, if the person baptized be guilty of any.

Q. 628. That actual sins may be remitted by baptism, is it necessary to be sorry for them?
A. That actual sins may be remitted by baptism it is necessary to be sorry for them, just as we must be when they are remitted by the Sacrament of Penance.

VC

 

[twb1621]

I think absolutely yes.

Here, for instance is Baltimore Catechism 3, on that:

Q. 627. Are actual sins ever remitted by Baptism?
A. Actual sins and all the punishment due to them are remitted by Baptism, if the person baptized be guilty of any.

Q. 628. That actual sins may be remitted by baptism, is it necessary to be sorry for them?
A. That actual sins may be remitted by baptism it is necessary to be sorry for them, just as we must be when they are remitted by the Sacrament of Penance.

VC

This is the point where the persons sincerity of their heart makes the final determination. In general, it always does.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

This is the point where the persons sincerity of their heart makes the final determination. In general, it always does.

Hi twb1621,

Could you clarify for me? I’m not sure what you mean. . . especially the “always does” portion. Do you mean that a valid baptism always forgives sin?

Thanks!
VC

 

[twb1621]

Hi twb1621,

Could you clarify for me? I’m not sure what you mean. . . especially the “always does” portion. Do you mean that a valid baptism always forgives sin?

Thanks!
VC

relating to adults, I mean regardless of the sacrament (Baptism, Reconciliation or otherwise) the forgiveness and mercy of our Lord is based on that sincerity within the heart of the seeker. No sacrament will provide salvation if the heart is deceiving.

 

[JW55]

The encouraging thing about purgatory is that the person can rest assured that at some point they wil be in heaven.

I have also heard some lines of belief that an individual might do their purgatorial suffering in this life as opposed to the afterlife. If that were the case, some souls might go directly to heaven at death if they were completely purged of their venial sins in life.