Purgatory, Quick question

[CrimsonCatholic]

If someone asks God to forgive them of a sin they have committed and the ones they cannot remember, will this allow them to bypass purgatory to heaven?

One of my friends who is protestant says he asks God to forgive him for the sins he cannot remember, and I got to thinking that as a Catholic, would this bypass Purgatory?

Thank you in advance.

 

[smichhertz]

In purgatory you suffer for the EFFECTS of your sins. Even if your sins are forgiven, you still have to make up for them. What you have not made up for on Earth, you will make up for in Purgatory.

 

[CrimsonCatholic]

In purgatory you suffer for the EFFECTS of your sins. Even if your sins are forgiven, you still have to make up for them. What you have not made up for on Earth, you will make up for in Purgatory.

Thank you, now I get it. Thank you for clearing that up for me!

Mod Can close this Thread.

 

[smichhertz]

Thank you, now I get it. Thank you for clearing that up for me!

Mod Can close this Thread.

You are welcome! Glad I could help.

 

[brb3]

In purgatory you suffer for the EFFECTS of your sins. Even if your sins are forgiven, you still have to make up for them. What you have not made up for on Earth, you will make up for in Purgatory.

Still have to ‘make up’ atone ] for ALL sins ? The Adamaic ones (those we inherited) & our actual sins [those commited prior to our baptisms/confirmations] ?
I’d say NO.

Now, our post-baptimal / confirmational ones ?
Those would seem a definate YES !

 

[TrueLight]

Still have to ‘make up’ atone ] for ALL sins ? The Adamaic ones (those we inherited) & our actual sins [those commited prior to our baptisms/confirmations] ?
I’d say NO.

Now, our post-baptimal / confirmational ones ?
Those would seem a definate YES !

How can we atone for sins? Christ atones for out sins.

 

[InternetWoman]

How can we atone for sins? Christ atones for out sins.

Atone was probably a bad choice of words. You are correct, Jesus atoned for all our sins. But each sin carries two effects. The first is guilt - which Jesus’ atonement removes when we confess our sins (or receive baptism). However, the punishment due the sin remains.

There is a famous example for this - if you break someones window you can apologize and they can forgive you (guilt removed). However you still need to repair the window (punishment/reparation).

We can either repair the windows (make reparation) while we are here on earth (prayers, helping others) or we can wait until we die and make reparation in Purgatory (Heaven’s entrance hall). All the Saints warn folks that our understanding of sin will change significantly once in Purgatory - meaning it is much more painful there than here. So they recommend we do all that we can to make reparation in this life.

 

[heathnprotstnt]

Atone was probably a bad choice of words. You are correct, Jesus atoned for all our sins. But each sin carries two effects. The first is guilt - which Jesus’ atonement removes when we confess our sins (or receive baptism). However, the punishment due the sin remains.

There is a famous example for this - if you break someones window you can apologize and they can forgive you (guilt removed). However you still need to repair the window (punishment/reparation).

We can either repair the windows (make reparation) while we are here on earth (prayers, helping others) or we can wait until we die and make reparation in Purgatory (Heaven’s entrance hall). All the Saints warn folks that our understanding of sin will change significantly once in Purgatory - meaning it is much more painful there than here. So they recommend we do all that we can to make reparation in this life.

So Christ’s suffering on the cross, His death and His resurrection was not sufficient? If yes, that would mean God and His plan was also deficient.

If everyone went around “doing good” and “fixing windows” for the purpose of reparation would that really line up with what we were taught by Christ?

Christ died once, for all…for the forgiveness of sin. God did not parole us so we can perform community service until our debt to society is paid. We were pardoned…Amen!!!

 

[brb3]

How can we atone for sins? Christ atones for out sins.

We can’t.

Atone … is the protestant word for what Christ obtains for the Christian before God. Catholics use the word ‘satisfaction’ or ‘reconcile’ or ‘expiate’ … which means the same thing.

Yes, only Christ & the Father can ‘forgive’ venial & mortal sins. However, Catholic priests can also forgive BOTH venial & mortal sins [in the name of Christ]… while hearing a Christian’s confession. But, penance is imposed on the one confessing … so that they can make ‘satisfaction’ for the harm their sins did to both themselves and others.

 

[Mintaka]

God did not parole us so we can perform community service until our debt to society is paid. We were pardoned…Amen!!!

Um… what about Matthew 5:26 and Luke 12:59? It’s part of a discussion about the signs of the end of the world and what you should do beforehand.

“Settle quickly with your creditor while you are still on your way to court. For he may give you over to the judge, and the judge to his assistant, and his assistant throw you into prison. Amen, amen, I say to you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

Obviously, you would never get out of the “prison” at all, no matter how much you “pay back your debts”, if it’s meant to be Hell. And it’s pretty obvious that Jesus is advising people to settle up their debts and wrongs before God makes them settle, when it’s too late to do it the easy way; but He’s also clearly indicating that there is a hard way that comes after the Judgment, that’s still not eternal.

 

[brb3]

Um… what about Matthew 5:26 …

it’s pretty obvious that Jesus is advising people to settle up their debts and wrongs before God makes them settle, when it’s too late to do it the easy way; but He’s also clearly indicating that there is a hard way that comes after the Judgment, that’s still not eternal.

:nope:

this describes settling up in this life, while there is still time & opportunity … not the after-life.

 

[TimothyH]

Purgatory is not atonement for sins nor is it punishment. Purgatory is a purgation or purification of our residual self love and venial sins. Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, mortal sin and venial sin are all doctrines which are deeply rooted in scripture and full of beauty and insight into God’s mercy for thos who take the time and trouble to look for it.

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the Hell of fire. (Matthew 5:22, NRSV-CE)

Jesus himself speaks of a relative gradation of sin. Note that the first two types of sin leave us open to judgement but the third type of sin leave us immediately liable to the “Hell of fire.” Jesus’ best friend tells us about sin which is not deadly for which we can pray (humanly repairable) and sin which is dealy sin for which we canot pray (need God’s forgiveness).

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. (1 John 5:16-17)

These passages all fit the Catholic doctrine of mortal and venial sin perfectly. Venial sin does not break God’s covenant and so is humanly repairable by sinner himself through prayer, sincere repentance and sufficient contrition. Venail sin is therefor not deadly to our soul for a John says, “He should pray to God and he will give him life.” While venail sin leaves us open to God’s judgement, it does not carry the immediate punishment of Hell. Mortal sin on the other hand, is deadly to our soul. As Jesus states, mortal sin leaves us “Liable to the Hell of fire.” Since mortal sin breaks God’s covenant, it is not humanly repairable - we need God’s forgiveness to bring our soul back to life.

***…but nothing unclean will enter it… *(Revelation 21:27)

Speaking about Heaven, Jesus’ best friend tells us that nothing unclean is allowed. No person with the stain of sin will be allowed entry into God’s presence. St. Paul agrees with St. John when he writes that we must strive…

…for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14)

The early Church fathers such as Origen, St. Augustine, St. Cyprian and St. Ambrose saw a giant loophole here. One may not have committed such “Deadly” sins (or may have repented of them sufficiently) as to be cast into Hell for eternity. Nevertheless, one must in a state of perfect holiness in order to enter Heaven. We must ask where this leaves those who may have died without committing any mortal sin after confession yet who may have committed some lesser venial sins. Having not broken the covenant, these will have died in a state of sanctifying grace and as such, do not deserve to be cast into Hell. According to the strict requirement for entry into Heaven set forth in Revelation 21:27 and Hebrews 12:14 however, due to the presence of venial sin, this person does not possess the required holiness to enter Heaven. Does this person go to Heaven or Hell? The doctrine of Purgatory not only gives us an answer but conforms to scripture quite well.

Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

How do we get forgiveness in “an age to come?” In Hell there is no forgivenss. Those in Heaven don’t need forgiveness. Purgatory is the answer.

If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that Person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

Where does someone go to suffer loss yet be saved?You don’t suffer loss in Heaven. You can’t be saved in Hell. Purgatory is the answer.

Purgatory closes the loophole for those who don’t break the covenant yet are not yet perfect. These passages seem quite odd in a theology with only Heaven and Hell. The Catholic doctrine of Purgatory however is is not only 100% consisten with Scripture but is consistent with a loving and merciful God who knows our weaknesses and frailty yet cannot let anything less than perfect holiness enter into his presence.

Again, Purgatory is not punishment. It is a place of purifiation where those who have died in a state of sanctifying grace yet still (name removed by moderator)erfect are prepared by a merciful and loving God for entry into his presence.

Like obedient children, do not act in compliance with the desires of your former ignorance but, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, "Be holy because I (am) holy." (1 Peter 1:14-16)

-Tim-

 

[brb3]

Purgatory is not atonement for sins nor is it punishment. Purgatory is a purgation or purification of our residual self love and venial sins. Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, mortal sin and venial sin are all doctrines which are deeply rooted in scripture and full of beauty and insight into God’s mercy for thos who take the time and trouble to look for it.

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the Hell of fire. (Matthew 5:22, NRSV-CE)

Jesus himself speaks of a relative gradation of sin. Note that the first two types of sin leave us open to judgement but the third type of sin leave us immediately liable to the “Hell of fire.” Jesus’ best friend tells us about sin which is not deadly for which we can pray (humanly repairable) and sin which is dealy sin for which we canot pray (need God’s forgiveness).

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. (1 John 5:16-17)

These passages all fit the Catholic doctrine of mortal and venial sin perfectly. Venial sin does not break God’s covenant and so is humanly repairable by sinner himself through prayer, sincere repentance and sufficient contrition. Venail sin is therefor not deadly to our soul for a John says, “He should pray to God and he will give him life.” While venail sin leaves us open to God’s judgement, it does not carry the immediate punishment of Hell. Mortal sin on the other hand, is deadly to our soul. As Jesus states, mortal sin leaves us “Liable to the Hell of fire.” Since mortal sin breaks God’s covenant, it is not humanly repairable - we need God’s forgiveness to bring our soul back to life.

***…but nothing unclean will enter it… ***(Revelation 21:27)

Speaking about Heaven, Jesus’ best friend tells us that nothing unclean is allowed. No person with the stain of sin will be allowed entry into God’s presence. St. Paul agrees with St. John when he writes that we must strive…

…for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14)

Therefore, I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

How do we get forgiveness in “an age to come?” In Hell there is no forgivenss. Those in Heaven don’t need forgiveness. Purgatory is the answer.

If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that Person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)

Where does someone go to suffer loss yet be saved?You don’t suffer loss in Heaven. You can’t be saved in Hell. Purgatory is the answer.

Purgatory closes the loophole for those who don’t break the covenant yet are not yet perfect. These passages seem quite odd in a theology with only Heaven and Hell. The Catholic doctrine of Purgatory however is is not only 100% consisten with Scripture but is consistent with a loving and merciful God who knows our weaknesses and frailty yet cannot let anything less than perfect holiness enter into his presence.

Again, Purgatory is not punishment. It is a place of purifiation where those who have died in a state of sanctifying grace yet still (name removed by moderator)erfect are prepared by a merciful and loving God for entry into his presence.

Like obedient children, do not act in compliance with the desires of your former ignorance but, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct, for it is written, "Be holy because I (am) holy." (1 Peter 1:14-16)

Tim …

You make a strong case for Purgatory, using scriptures. I :clapping: your apologetic !. You ALMOST convince me here.

However, how do we ‘square’ the Catholic teaching on purgatory being ONLY for venial sins … by using Matt. 12:31-32 ? [above, where you quote Christ]

Christ clearly says in Matthew’s Gospel that EVERY SIN [all Mortals … :yup: ] will be forgiven us ---- provided we don’t reject the Holy Spirit [who is the LORD, the GIVER OF LIFE] … per our CREED, which is the bedrock of our faith, professed at EVERY Mass.

 

[WFS5801]

So Christ’s suffering on the cross, His death and His resurrection was not sufficient? If yes, that would mean God and His plan was also deficient.

If everyone went around “doing good” and “fixing windows” for the purpose of reparation would that really line up with what we were taught by Christ?

Christ died once, for all…for the forgiveness of sin. God did not parole us so we can perform community service until our debt to society is paid. We were pardoned…Amen!!!

Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient to save us as long as we hold fast, keep his commandments and die in a state of grace, but nothing defiled can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Since most Protestants (Evangelical ones at any rate) believe that Christ does not cleanse us of our sins but only “covers them,” obviously the concept of Purgatory would be foreign to them.

The Church teaches, that, to redeem us from original sin and its consequences, Christ the Son of God assumed our nature and died for us on the Cross; that, by His merits, we are really freed from sin, and by the infusion of supernatural sanctifying grace into our souls, are again united to God, and become personally pleasing in His sight. You will not deny, that it is an immense consolation for man, after having been tortured by remorse, and weighed down by the sense of unworthiness, to know that he has been really pardoned, that he is once more really free from guilt, truly pure and holy before His Maker.

The Catholic Church further teaches, that man co-operates in his justification by co-operating, with perfect freedom, with the grace of God, which prompts and strengthens him to do penance and amend his life. To be allowed to co-operate with the grace of God, renders his consolation still greater, for it makes him conscious of a meritorious personal triumph over his own passions and over the power of Satan.
…
Of this consolation Protestantism deprives you. The doctrine of Luther, Calvin, and their adherents, is, that no sin, whether original or personal, is ever remitted; but is, at best only covered by the merits of Christ. [Luther. Expos. Epist. ad Galat. Solid. Declar. III. § 15. Calvin. Instit. 1.III. c. ii.] According to their doctrine, man, after being justified through Christ, remains in sin as much as before, with this only difference, that, after his justification, he is not liable to be punished for his sins. For a man who loves his God it is hard to conceive a more distressing doctrine: to such a man the offence is more hateful than the punishment, and he finds the thought intolerable, that God, though unwilling to punish him, yet should allow him to be no better in His sight than a whitened sepulchre.
…
Thus Protestantism would leave no true state of justice on earth; it would banish the heavenly consciousness of innocence regained; it would make us believe, if possible, that the wounds inflicted by the fall are so deep, that the blood of the Redeemer cannot heal them; our ruin so hopeless that the mercy of the Almighty cannot repair it. Such is the second stage of its distressing system. Do you think it preferable to the Catholic view?

–Protestantism & Infidelity by F. X. Weninger. D.D

Not much I can add to this.

 

[brb3]

Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient to save us as long as we hold fast, keep his commandments and die in a state of grace, but nothing defiled can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Since most Protestants (Evangelical ones at any rate) believe that Christ does not cleanse us of our sins but only “covers them,” obviously the concept of Purgatory would be foreign to them.

Not much I can add to this.

The irony is that many Protestants don’t think Catholics believe they have truly been forgiven of sins & or have assurance of salvation. But, instead hope to please/earn God’s forgvieness by their Good Works, … and are counting on Purgatory as a second chance to slowly earn God’s favor for any ‘unconfessed’ venial & mortal sins.

 

[WFS5801]

The irony is that many Protestants don’t think Catholics believe they have truly been forgiven of sins & or have assurance of salvation. But, instead hope to please/earn God’s forgvieness by their Good Works, … and are counting on Purgatory as a second chance to slowly earn God’s favor for any ‘unconfessed’ venial & mortal sins.

I know. When I used to debate with my friends from my Protestant days, I spent more time explaining what the Church didn’t teach rather than what it does. And the bad part was, when I would explain to them, for instance, that you can’t buy your way into Heaven, they would say something like, “they’re keeping this secret from you.” You would think that, being of good will (which they were), they would be happy to find out that these things they were taught about the Church were not true – but, gossip dies hard, and then it becomes a “conspiracy theory” argument. And that goes nowhere. The sad part is, there are a lot of true differences between Protestants and Catholics and I would have loved to have debated on those points.

 

[heathnprotstnt]

Um… what about Matthew 5:26 and Luke 12:59? It’s part of a discussion about the signs of the end of the world and what you should do beforehand.

“Settle quickly with your creditor while you are still on your way to court. For he may give you over to the judge, and the judge to his assistant, and his assistant throw you into prison. Amen, amen, I say to you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

Obviously, you would never get out of the “prison” at all, no matter how much you “pay back your debts”, if it’s meant to be Hell. And it’s pretty obvious that Jesus is advising people to settle up their debts and wrongs before God makes them settle, when it’s too late to do it the easy way; but He’s also clearly indicating that there is a hard way that comes after the Judgment, that’s still not eternal.

First, how you pull Purgatory out of Matt 5:26 & Luke 12:59 is some serious mental gymnastics. Matt 5 speaks much about reconciliation and forgiveness. Keep reading. How about Matthew 18?

It is very clear that the parable is about forgiveness of sin (i.e., debts). It is also very clear and “obvious” that it would never be possible to pay off the debt at issue, what WE owe to GOD. The debt was 10000 talents of gold. 1 talent was the equivalent of 20 years wages…hmmm? 10000 x 20 years = a really long time. Maybe that’s where you get Purgatory…

It was a debt that could NEVER be paid, which is exactly Christ’s point. Just like the Jail in Matt 5:26 and Luke 12:59. Yet, Christ was clear. The “King” forgave the servant his debt IN FULL. Needless to say, the One True God is once again sufficient for us. AMEN and AMEN!!!

 

[heathnprotstnt]

I know. When I used to debate with my friends from my Protestant days, I spent more time explaining what the Church didn’t teach rather than what it does. And the bad part was, when I would explain to them, for instance, that you can’t buy your way into Heaven, they would say something like, “they’re keeping this secret from you.” You would think that, being of good will (which they were), they would be happy to find out that these things they were taught about the Church were not true – but, gossip dies hard, and then it becomes a “conspiracy theory” argument. And that goes nowhere. The sad part is, there are a lot of true differences between Protestants and Catholics and I would have loved to have debated on those points.

How do you explain the practice of so-called “Indulgences” being around for over a millenia?

 

[heathnprotstnt]

Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient to save us as long as we hold fast, keep his commandments and die in a state of grace, but nothing defiled can enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Since most Protestants (Evangelical ones at any rate) believe that Christ does not cleanse us of our sins but only “covers them,” obviously the concept of Purgatory would be foreign to them.

Not much I can add to this.

What a hedonist God would be to have his only begotten Son suffer and die if there was another way. You would argue that this is not another way…but it is.

That is not my God. How one can fathom the “form and substance” argument for the Eucharist to be true, for example, and not understand the simple truth that Christ died once for all is simply beyond me.

Perhaps that’s why we are to be like “little children.” They typically tell it simple and “like it is.” Adults love to complicate things…

White robes…washed by the blood of Christ…not spotted until bleached out in Purgatory.

 

[WFS5801]

How do you explain the practice of so-called “Indulgences” being around for over a millenia?

You’ll have to clarify your question. What do you mean “how do I explain the practice of indulgences?” And what is a “so-called” indulgence? Let me give you a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia’s article on Indulgences.

newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm

This will generally explain the doctrine of indulgences in the Catholic Church. If you have a specific question I’ll be glad to do my best to answer it.