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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
After you sin and ask forgiveness and are forgiven do you sin again?If so why?Answer these questions and you will see where I am going with this.God Bless
- Status
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RobedWithLight
Guest
Perhaps that is because even though Jesus had already borne the consequences of our sins, there is no guarantee that a person won’t sin again, and again, and again, due to human fallibility, ignorance, and weakness. The sacrifice, while in itself complete, does not however, guarantee that people from then onward, would be perfect and upright.
The point is, people can still commit sin, even those who claim to be devout Christians. Yet those sins, many of them, are not grievous enough to merit eternal condemnation, but then, since sin is a form of impurity, nothing impure can likewise enter heaven. What then is left but a period of purgation, temporary but necessary to remove such impurity and make the person worthy of entering the kingdom.
If purgatory did not exist, then it is reasonable to assume that practically the entire human race would be condemned to an eternal hell because no one is sinless enough to merit heaven. It is a black-white conundrum with no plausible exceptions.
The proposition that there is no purgatory is even more problematic than the concept of purgatory itself.
Gerry
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aspawloski4th
Guest
when prtestants give me the raspberrys on purgatory, I quote 1 peter 3 verse 19 where jesus preaches to the spirits in prison. portestants just go silent, because it proves purgatory to perfection. by the way the jews called purgatory , sheol. so purgatory is not new, it the idea that there is no purgatory that the new idea, and an incorrect at that.
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josiah
Guest
**
RobedWithLight:
I understand your logic and I would come to the same conclusion also if didn’t take into consideration the following passages of scripture:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins (notice plural), He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse (this takes care of the impurity issue) us from all unrighteousness.
I agree that we are prone to sin again and again due to our inherited sinful nature but I believe that’s why John said:
1Jo 2:1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1Jo 2:2 And He is the propitiation (to conciliate an offended power) concerning our sins (plural again), and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.
Please understand that I don’t advocate “sin all you want b/c Jesus paid it all.” We should continue struggle against our sinful nature but like David said at the end of Psalm 51…"
Psa 51:16-17 For You do not desire sacrifice; or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. (17) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
I believe I should be broken over my sin b/c it grieves my Lord who loved me enough to die for my sins.
In Love
Josiah
**
The point is, people can still commit sin, even those who claim to be devout Christians. Yet those sins, many of them, are not grievous enough to merit eternal condemnation, but then, since sin is a form of impurity, nothing impure can likewise enter heaven. What then is left but a period of purgation, temporary but necessary to remove such impurity and make the person worthy of entering the kingdom.
I understand your logic and I would come to the same conclusion also if didn’t take into consideration the following passages of scripture:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins (notice plural), He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse (this takes care of the impurity issue) us from all unrighteousness.
I agree that we are prone to sin again and again due to our inherited sinful nature but I believe that’s why John said:
1Jo 2:1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1Jo 2:2 And He is the propitiation (to conciliate an offended power) concerning our sins (plural again), and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.
Please understand that I don’t advocate “sin all you want b/c Jesus paid it all.” We should continue struggle against our sinful nature but like David said at the end of Psalm 51…"
Psa 51:16-17 For You do not desire sacrifice; or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. (17) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
I believe I should be broken over my sin b/c it grieves my Lord who loved me enough to die for my sins.
In Love
Josiah
**
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
josiah said:**
RobedWithLight:
**
The point is, people can still commit sin, even those who claim to be devout Christians. Yet those sins, many of them, are not grievous enough to merit eternal condemnation, but then, since sin is a form of impurity, nothing impure can likewise enter heaven. What then is left but a period of purgation, temporary but necessary to remove such impurity and make the person worthy of entering the kingdom.
I understand your logic and I would come to the same conclusion also if didn’t take into consideration the following passages of scripture:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins (notice plural), He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse (this takes care of the impurity issue) us from all unrighteousness.
I agree that we are prone to sin again and again due to our inherited sinful nature but I believe that’s why John said:
1Jo 2:1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1Jo 2:2 And He is the propitiation (to conciliate an offended power) concerning our sins (plural again), and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.
Please understand that I don’t advocate “sin all you want b/c Jesus paid it all.” We should continue struggle against our sinful nature but like David said at the end of Psalm 51…"
Psa 51:16-17 For You do not desire sacrifice; or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. (17) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
I believe I should be broken over my sin b/c it grieves my Lord who loved me enough to die for my sins.
In Love
Josiah
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
He sure does cleanse ALL sin. Some is done in purgatory.God Bless
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RobedWithLight
Guest
True, but still, we should consider that “cleansing” from all sins and the inability to commit “future” sins are not necessarily the same thing. Soap cleanses our entire body when we bath, yet that doesn’t mean we’ll be physically clean the rest of our lives.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Precisely, you have in fact proven that all are sinners, and hence purgation is necessary so that no stain of iniquity enters heaven.
QUOTE]
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins (notice plural), He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse (this takes care of the impurity issue) us from all unrighteousness.
Yet in the same token confessing one’s sins does not guarantee one can no longer sin, just as taking medicine does not take away the possibility of falling sick once more.
I agree that we are prone to sin again and again due to our inherited sinful nature but I believe that’s why John said:
1Jo 2:1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
One may not sin isn’t the same as the phrase one cannot sin. It only says that while God forgives sins, such forgiveness does not guarantee that one becomes perfect to the point of inability to commit further sin, because human nature remains human nature.
And He is the propitiation (to conciliate an offended power) concerning our sins (plural again), and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.
Please understand that I don’t advocate “sin all you want b/c Jesus paid it all.” We should continue struggle against our sinful nature but like David said at the end of Psalm 51…"The fact that we continue to struggle in fact makes the existence of purgatory more, rather than** less** likely, because human nature is not perfect, it thus requires cleansing, and more so, His infinite compassion, which graciously desires that more souls are saved, which is why we believe there is a purgatory.
Gerry
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josiah
Guest
**
RobedWithLight:
1Jo 2:1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1Jo 2:2 And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.
Also, how would you define Propitiation?
One last thing, consider these verses as well.
Read Hebrews 7-9. The context compares the priesthood of the OT to the priesthood of Jesus Christ. It was interesting for me to note that there were no seats in the Temple for the Jews b/c a priest’s work was never done. However, in Hebrews 8:1
Heb 8:1 Now the sum of the things which we have spoken is this: We have such a High Priest, who has sat down on the right of the throne of the Majesty in Heaven,…
…we have a high priest (Christ) who has sat down. He can sit down b/c His work (Atonement for sins) is done.
If Jesus Christ died for my sins, then this includes my past, present and future sins.
Heb 9:11 But when Christ had become a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building Heb 9:12 nor by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered once for all into the Holies, having obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh, Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God) purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb 9:15 And for this cause He is the Mediator of the new covenant, so that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, those who are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
In Love
Josiah**
I agree with this entirely, but think of 1John 2:1 as the “soap” we need when we do sin.
1Jo 2:1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1Jo 2:2 And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.
Also, how would you define Propitiation?
One last thing, consider these verses as well.
Read Hebrews 7-9. The context compares the priesthood of the OT to the priesthood of Jesus Christ. It was interesting for me to note that there were no seats in the Temple for the Jews b/c a priest’s work was never done. However, in Hebrews 8:1
Heb 8:1 Now the sum of the things which we have spoken is this: We have such a High Priest, who has sat down on the right of the throne of the Majesty in Heaven,…
…we have a high priest (Christ) who has sat down. He can sit down b/c His work (Atonement for sins) is done.
If Jesus Christ died for my sins, then this includes my past, present and future sins.
Heb 9:11 But when Christ had become a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building Heb 9:12 nor by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered once for all into the Holies, having obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean sanctifies to the purifying of the flesh, Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God) purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb 9:15 And for this cause He is the Mediator of the new covenant, so that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, those who are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
In Love
Josiah**
C
Church_Militant
Guest
I have a buddy who is a Hasidic Jew and we talk about ouir faiths often. He caught me off guard one day when he told me that they also believe in a kind of purgatory. Like you I was impressed that this teaching is not unique to Catholicism and has roots in our Jewish “ancestry”.
S
Sarah_Jane
Guest
“Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.”
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josiah
Guest
I’m sorry to disagree with you, but there are no OT references of Sheol and the purging of sins in the same context. Sheol was a common place for one to go to in the afterlife. In the septuagint Sheol is translated into Háidēs or Hades. In Isaiah 14:9 “Hell” is translated from Sheol. Is hell and purgatory the same?
**
How does 1Peter 3:19 teach purgatory? Where in the context of this passage do we get “purging of sins” from the spirits in prison? In fact, there is a better case for Jesus Christ suffering for the sins of others That He might bring us to God…verse 18. There is no mention of purgation bringing us to God. Purgatory is for purifying us so that we may enter into the presence of God…Right? But how does the text say we are brought to God? The context doesn’t allow for a purgatory concept. Spirits in prison would fit a better sense of Hell rather than a purgatory. Do you base your theology off ambigous phrases?
**
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; 1Pe 3:19 in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 1Pe 3:20 to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water); 1Pe 3:21 which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1Pe 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into Heaven, where the angels and authorities and powers are being subjected to Him.
Josiah
S
Sarah_Jane
Guest
**Hell was divided into two areas before Christ made the jail break : **
*]**Hades **(Greek) The abode of the just - Abraham’s Bosom (Lk 16:22) This is where they awaited their promised deliverance.
*]Gehenna (Greek): This is the lake of fire. Eternal damnation (Mt:18:9)
The good guys went to Hades and the bad guys when to Gehenna. Christ descended into hell on Good Friday so he could rescue the righteous from Hades.(1 Pt 3:18-19) Jesus is the only way to Heaven so it was important that he descended to the dead. (Jn 14:6) Jesus didn’t go to hell as a dead guy. He went there as the Saviour. Jesus blew down the doors of Hades and grabbed out every faithful servant of God from the beginning of history. He rescued them and freed them from this prison on Holy Saturday. Praise God! That must have been a great party.
Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. ([After Jesus’ death] “the tombs opened and the bodies of many holy people rose from the dead…” (Matthew 27:52-53) Yeah, Jesus is the saviour of all humanity, even those from Old Testament times.
No one was left in Hades, (the abode of the just) after Christ did the jail bust on Holy Saturday. After that Easter Sunday there was only one area of hell left. That’s the lake of fire (Gehenna). The folks in Gehenna were lost for all eternity because they rebelliously refused God. Jesus didn’t hang out with those guys during his three days in hell. Many still go to hell. Please Jesus keep me in your shadow!
-David MacDonald
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aspawloski4th
Guest
dear Mr josiah: you ask how the verse from the letter of peter I mentioned teach purgatory? first in Catholic church comentaries that I have read on the subject where they print out scripture to prove purgatory that verse gets mentioned quite abit, which as a Holysee, magisterium faithful, papist Catholic thats good enough for me, but I will say this to you, the verse say he preached to the souls or dead people in prison, if they are in hell they are byond the help of preaching if they are in heaven they dont need preaching, so what does that leave you? the answer is very obvious!
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josiah
Guest
first in Catholic church comentaries that I have read on the subject where they print out scripture to prove purgatory that verse gets mentioned quite abit, which as a Holysee, magisterium faithful, papist Catholic thats good enough for me
To be honest with you, as a non Catholic, I’m not interested in catholic commentaries or any literature that comes out of the catholic church b/c it carries no weight for me. Therefore, you might not want to assume that catholic literature is “good enough” for people who especially aren’t catholic. It’s also not the best argument. If you want to prove your stand on purgatory by using scripture…then please stick to using scripture (It’s the only thing that I consider authoratative).
but I will say this to you, the verse say he preached to the souls or dead people in prison, if they are in hell they are byond the help of preaching if they are in heaven they dont need preaching, so what does that leave you? the answer is very obvious!
Before I answer the question that you pose here, I think it’s only fair for you to address the question/statements I made in my earlier post. I’ll even restate it. Sir/Madam, please don’t misunderstand me…I’m not trying to be rude nor am I here for debate (which implies a winner/loser) but I am here for open honest dialogue. When you answer this stay true to the text and don’t give me traditions. I want to know how catholicism gets purgatory out of this passage? Please don’t proof text either. Read this passage in context of what the author was saying! Allow the text to speak in it’s ENTIRETY, after all that’s what you do if you recieve a letter from someone…right?
How does 1Peter 3:19 teach purgatory? Where in the context of this passage do we get “purging of sins” from the spirits in prison? In fact, there is a better case for Jesus Christ suffering for the sins of others That He might bring us to God…verse 18. There is no mention of purgation bringing us to God. Purgatory is for purifying us so that we may enter into the presence of God…Right? But how does the text say we are brought to God? The context doesn’t allow for a purgatory concept. Spirits in prison would fit a better sense of Hell rather than a purgatory. Do you base your theology off ambigous phrases?
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; 1Pe 3:19 in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 1Pe 3:20 to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water); 1Pe 3:21 which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1Pe 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into Heaven, where the angels and authorities and powers are being subjected to Him.
Josiah
To be honest with you, as a non Catholic, I’m not interested in catholic commentaries or any literature that comes out of the catholic church b/c it carries no weight for me. Therefore, you might not want to assume that catholic literature is “good enough” for people who especially aren’t catholic. It’s also not the best argument. If you want to prove your stand on purgatory by using scripture…then please stick to using scripture (It’s the only thing that I consider authoratative).
but I will say this to you, the verse say he preached to the souls or dead people in prison, if they are in hell they are byond the help of preaching if they are in heaven they dont need preaching, so what does that leave you? the answer is very obvious!
Before I answer the question that you pose here, I think it’s only fair for you to address the question/statements I made in my earlier post. I’ll even restate it. Sir/Madam, please don’t misunderstand me…I’m not trying to be rude nor am I here for debate (which implies a winner/loser) but I am here for open honest dialogue. When you answer this stay true to the text and don’t give me traditions. I want to know how catholicism gets purgatory out of this passage? Please don’t proof text either. Read this passage in context of what the author was saying! Allow the text to speak in it’s ENTIRETY, after all that’s what you do if you recieve a letter from someone…right?
How does 1Peter 3:19 teach purgatory? Where in the context of this passage do we get “purging of sins” from the spirits in prison? In fact, there is a better case for Jesus Christ suffering for the sins of others That He might bring us to God…verse 18. There is no mention of purgation bringing us to God. Purgatory is for purifying us so that we may enter into the presence of God…Right? But how does the text say we are brought to God? The context doesn’t allow for a purgatory concept. Spirits in prison would fit a better sense of Hell rather than a purgatory. Do you base your theology off ambigous phrases?
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; 1Pe 3:19 in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 1Pe 3:20 to disobeying ones, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water); 1Pe 3:21 which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1Pe 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into Heaven, where the angels and authorities and powers are being subjected to Him.
Josiah
R
RNRobert
Guest
Sometime last month I was reading the daily Scripture reading and came across this:
When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of burning (Isaiah 4:4, RSV).
Purification through fire is a common theme in Scripture.
John the Baptist told his listeners that Jesus would baptize “with the Spirit and with fire” (Matthew 3:11).
St. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 that our works will be tested with fire.
As Scott Hahn writes in Rome Sweet Home, “There’s the fire of hell, but then there’s and infinitely hotter fire in heaven; it’s God himself.” As Scripture confirms: Our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29; see also Deuteronomy 4:24).
St Peter tells us to endure our trials “so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:7).
I think this explains Purgatory the best: as a refiner’s fire that burns off all the dross of sin and self-love so that our souls are pure. Of course, the better we endure our trials and strive for holiness while alive, the less purgation we will have to undergo before entering heaven.
Many Protestants object to Purgatory because they think it nullifies the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Paragraph
1478 of the CCC says “…the ‘treasury of the church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God” (Emphasis mine). Jesus’ death on the cross was more than enough to pay for our sins. The problem is that oftentimes we resist God’s grace working in our lives. I remember listening to a Protestant radio preacher some years ago who commented that he heard Christians asking for more grace. His reply was that we had all the grace we need, but that we didn’t respond to it. Scripture confirms this. Mark 6:5-6 tells us that when Jesus was in Nazareth, “he was unable to perform any mighty deeds there” due to the people’s lack of faith. Jesus was able to heal the man born blind, but could do nothing for the spiritual blindness of the Pharisees (John 9). In Catholic theology, Jesus’ death doesn’t merely cover up our sins, but transforms us, but we have to allow God to work in our lives.
When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of burning (Isaiah 4:4, RSV).
Purification through fire is a common theme in Scripture.
John the Baptist told his listeners that Jesus would baptize “with the Spirit and with fire” (Matthew 3:11).
St. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 that our works will be tested with fire.
As Scott Hahn writes in Rome Sweet Home, “There’s the fire of hell, but then there’s and infinitely hotter fire in heaven; it’s God himself.” As Scripture confirms: Our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29; see also Deuteronomy 4:24).
St Peter tells us to endure our trials “so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:7).
I think this explains Purgatory the best: as a refiner’s fire that burns off all the dross of sin and self-love so that our souls are pure. Of course, the better we endure our trials and strive for holiness while alive, the less purgation we will have to undergo before entering heaven.
Many Protestants object to Purgatory because they think it nullifies the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Paragraph
1478 of the CCC says “…the ‘treasury of the church’ is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ’s merits have before God” (Emphasis mine). Jesus’ death on the cross was more than enough to pay for our sins. The problem is that oftentimes we resist God’s grace working in our lives. I remember listening to a Protestant radio preacher some years ago who commented that he heard Christians asking for more grace. His reply was that we had all the grace we need, but that we didn’t respond to it. Scripture confirms this. Mark 6:5-6 tells us that when Jesus was in Nazareth, “he was unable to perform any mighty deeds there” due to the people’s lack of faith. Jesus was able to heal the man born blind, but could do nothing for the spiritual blindness of the Pharisees (John 9). In Catholic theology, Jesus’ death doesn’t merely cover up our sins, but transforms us, but we have to allow God to work in our lives.
A
aspawloski4th
Guest
josiah. first as a catholic Im obliged to follow the holy see, which existed before any official bible text.Im a catholic Im going to give a catholic answer!
2nd. prison can only mean purgatory. you said you thought it more to be hell. that is not a logical assumption. souls in hell are byond help, its a waist of time to preach to them.
3rd as a catholic I have to consider solarscrioptura to be heresy. heres some verses that debunk solarscriptura. jn 21:25 not everything in the bible.2peter1:20-21 against personal interpetation.
4th it was the catholic church that determeined the books to be in the bigble any way. councel at carthage , and councel at hippo. it wasnt handed down at some magical moment like you protestants seem to think.the apostles never inteneded to be a “bible” they intended church hirarchy to be final authority.
5th Im very curious of something. with your less than flattering attitiude twards the Catholic church. why do you come to this message board anyway? I dont mind inquiring minds wanting to know, but while not totally nasty you have been a little on the narly side. as a catholic I will read and quote the bible, but i know the bible isnt totally neccesary, I have the Catholic church, as set up on the day of pentecast by jesus christ, and started when christ named peter the rock he will build his church upon.
2nd. prison can only mean purgatory. you said you thought it more to be hell. that is not a logical assumption. souls in hell are byond help, its a waist of time to preach to them.
3rd as a catholic I have to consider solarscrioptura to be heresy. heres some verses that debunk solarscriptura. jn 21:25 not everything in the bible.2peter1:20-21 against personal interpetation.
4th it was the catholic church that determeined the books to be in the bigble any way. councel at carthage , and councel at hippo. it wasnt handed down at some magical moment like you protestants seem to think.the apostles never inteneded to be a “bible” they intended church hirarchy to be final authority.
5th Im very curious of something. with your less than flattering attitiude twards the Catholic church. why do you come to this message board anyway? I dont mind inquiring minds wanting to know, but while not totally nasty you have been a little on the narly side. as a catholic I will read and quote the bible, but i know the bible isnt totally neccesary, I have the Catholic church, as set up on the day of pentecast by jesus christ, and started when christ named peter the rock he will build his church upon.
J
josiah
Guest
I’m sorry if I have offended you…I didn’t mean to. Sorry.
Josiah
L
Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Smile, Josiah
Your not as ugly as some non- catholics that come to the forums. Try to under stand the answers that are given, you won’t understand The Catholic Faith unless you ask. I suggest you starting a thread asking How and who put the Bible in canon and work your way from there and then you can gain more understanding.God Bless You and glad your here
E
edwinG
Guest
Hi Exporter,
Note in Revelation,hell is thrown into the lake of fire.
Personally, I believe that when one dies to earth, one goes either to paradise or hell. ( The only people who dont, are those who are killed during Tribulation, who live and reign with Christ for a 1000years plus,These people have no fear of the 2nd death.) On Christ’s return, all are raptured while a new heaven and earth are made, the Holy Jerusalem comes down to earth, then the evil go to the lake of fire, and those in Christ into the Holy Jerusalem , having a station in the kingdom of God. So not only are we granted eternal life but we are given work according to our worth to God as His servants here on earth.
Can you tell me more about the aspect of Christ opening the gates of heaven, as I believe John the Baptist did this. John restored all things, It was John who heralded in the kingdoms.
Thanks for you time
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walk in love
edwinG
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rlg94086
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Peace Josiah,
Sorry, but we have to talk about sola scriptura briefly…
As Catholics, we use Scripture in arguments with Protestants because that’s all they will accept, but everything is not found in Scripture…even Scripture says so
(John 21:25; 2 Thessalonians 2:15). So, if you want us to be consistent, fine. We will make a Catholic argument, using Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium. Don’t expect us to defend our beliefs from Scripture alone.Or, try this. As a Protestant, why don’t you tell us what in the Scripture states that there is no purgatory without using any interpretation at all. You’ve quoted some Scripture, but none of it negates Church teaching. You think it does, but that’s your or another Christian’s personal understanding (with guidance from the Holy Spirit) of those verses, it’s not the Catholic understanding (with guidance from the Holy Spirit). So, who’s correct? Luckily, Christ founded the Church to answer those questions.
If you can reject all Catholic Commentaries, I can reject anything written by non-Catholic theologians. And that get’s us where?
God bless you in your journey,
Robert.
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