Purgatory, Temporal punishments, and indulgences

[flightkid]

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I have been trying to explain to my girlfriend lately about purgatory, temporal punishments from sins after we are forgiven, and indulgences. It kinda has confused me since I have jumped deep into it now. I understand the concept of indulgences and how they can remit partial or plenary temporal punishments while we are on this earth. So every sin we do has a temporal attachment to it correct? If that’s the case than we are running around trying to put marks by our sins and when and where we need an indulgence to counteract it right? It’s like a bank account in a way right? And also how do we know or how does the Church know if God allowed the indulgence to work on that person’s temporal punishments? What about someone who dies like a saint can God bypass all their temporal punishments and then send them straight to heaven with no purgatory? I am kind of confused bec ause I feel like it’s a bank account we are racking up and that people outside of Catholicism are shunned because they cannot get indulgences for their temporal punishments?? How would it work if a murderer killed someone and then went to confession and then obtained forgiveness than asked for an indulgence for all his horrible spiritual attachments from those sins? How is that fair from the good catholic who just has not asked for an indulgence for his temporal punishments? I am a little confused I guess as a Catholic….Please help me.

 

[Luke65]

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I have been trying to explain to my girlfriend lately about purgatory, temporal punishments from sins after we are forgiven, and indulgences. It kinda has confused me since I have jumped deep into it now. I understand the concept of indulgences and how they can remit partial or plenary temporal punishments while we are on this earth. So every sin we do has a temporal attachment to it correct?

Yes.

“Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is no favoritism.” (Colossians 3:25)

If that’s the case than we are running around trying to put marks by our sins and when and where we need an indulgence to counteract it right? It’s like a bank account in a way right? And also how do we know or how does the Church know if God allowed the indulgence to work on that person’s temporal punishments? What about someone who dies like a saint can God bypass all their temporal punishments and then send them straight to heaven with no purgatory? I am kind of confused bec ause I feel like it’s a bank account we are racking up and that people outside of Catholicism are shunned because they cannot get indulgences for their temporal punishments?? How would it work if a murderer killed someone and then went to confession and then obtained forgiveness than asked for an indulgence for all his horrible spiritual attachments from those sins? How is that fair from the good catholic who just has not asked for an indulgence for his temporal punishments? I am a little confused I guess as a Catholic….Please help me.

Well, first of all, understand that God’s justice is perfect. A repentant murderer will pay a much more severe penalty than, for example, a repentant shoplifter. But there are other considerations:

“That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.” (Luke 12:47-48)

And the concept of indulgences is in the Bible too:

“Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.” (James 5:20)

“Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.” (1 Peter 4:8)

So our good works, offered up in faith for the Kingdom, “cover over” our sins (or others’ sins) - that is, they remit the temporal punishment due to our sins - and indulgences are included in these good works.

The Blood of Christ is what makes the “forgiveness of sins” possible (Matthew 26:28, etc.), and it saves us from the ultimate penalty that is due to our sins - eternal damnation (Ephesians 1:7, etc.). But we have to join our sufferings and good works to Christ’s, for as St. Paul says:

“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.” (Colossians 1:24)

And see 1 Corinthians 3:10-15, especially in the Amplified Bible, which expresses very well what happens in Purgatory. And here is more on Purgatory and indulgences. And all of this applies to those who are not Catholic now but are saved; they might not believe it now, but they will later! Although they are missing out on the indulgences that the Church offers, but then again, to those who have been given much, much will be required.

 

[flightkid]

thank you so much for helping me with this. It has helped a lot! Anyone else have any suggestions and help?

 

[PJM]

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I have been trying to explain to my girlfriend lately about purgatory, temporal punishments from sins after we are forgiven, and indulgences. So every sin we do has a temporal attachment to it correct?

 

[Genesis315]

Pope John Paul II taught about indulgences in an audience that might be helpful:

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2INDLG.HTM

 

[JAGCath28]

Pope John Paul II taught about indulgences in an audience that might be helpful:

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2INDLG.HTM

I read through this as well as the introduction to the Manual of Indulgences. I think I’m still a little confused about indulgences. Is every indulgence given from a specific “good work” that was done by Mary and the other Saints? OR is the whole idea of an indulgence is your repaying for your sin? (i.e. if you steal you give back what you stole even after you are forgiven)

Also, how do we, the lay people, use the manual of indulgences if at all? It seems that only a priest can grant them so is it mainly for us to do our research prior to speaking with the priest?

Is there any early Christian writing that talks about indulgences? I think it would be very interesting to read the early Church fathers explanation for this tradition.

 

[Genesis315]

I read through this as well as the introduction to the Manual of Indulgences. I think I’m still a little confused about indulgences. Is every indulgence given from a specific “good work” that was done by Mary and the other Saints? OR is the whole idea of an indulgence is your repaying for your sin? (i.e. if you steal you give back what you stole even after you are forgiven)

There is a three-fold process of repentance: contrition, confession, and satisfaction. The good acts and penances we do with grace, bearing trials patiently and faithfully (God’s “chastisements”), etc. in and of themselves, make satisfaction. An indulgence is a remission of the need to make satisfaction–the superabundant merits of the whole Body of Christ are applied instead through the ministry of binding and loosing.

Giving back what you’ve stolen is restitution and is a slightly different concept than making satisfaction in grace. Christ alone can make satisfaction for the eternal effects of sin, but we in grace can and must, with grace, still make satisfaction for the temporal effects. It’s the temporal damage to our own soul we are seeking to expiate.

Also, how do we, the lay people, use the manual of indulgences if at all? It seems that only a priest can grant them so is it mainly for us to do our research prior to speaking with the priest?

The Pope and bishops grant them generally. You don’t have to get permission from anyone–just do the good work(s) required with the intention of receiving the indulgence.

Is there any early Christian writing that talks about indulgences? I think it would be very interesting to read the early Church fathers explanation for this tradition.

The article on indulgences in New Advent has some good examples. This is definitely a teaching that has developed over time.

Early on, penances that were given usually were attempts to make full satisfaction and were also canonically regulated. For example (and I’m just making an example up), the sin of fornication might require one to wear a hairshirt for 2 years. If the person showed enough fruits of repentence, the bishop might remit his punishment early–maybe reduce it to one year. In fact, St. Paul pardons the incestuous man in Corinth this same way in Scripture (see the link below).

Now lets take a step back and look at another scenario. Someone commits fornication and has to wear the hairshirt for two years. Say that person dies after only 1 year. It was understood that the remaining satisfaction would be made up in the afterlife through Purgatory. Now, if that person had received the same indulgence as above (1 year off), right before death, he would as a result not have to make that satisfaction up in the afterlife. It followed logically then that the indulgence extended into the afterlife as well.

It did take some centuries for these ideas to be synthesized together, but they were always present. In recent centuries penances generally focus on prayer which helps man turn back to God with maybe some alms giving or fasting for satisfaction. We generally focus on bearing trials faithfully, living a life of charity as making proper satisfaction, rather heavy canonical punishments–but the need for satisfaction and the fact that indulgences meet that need are still the case.

 

[JAGCath28]

I will definitely take some time to read through the information in the link that you have given me. Thank you. I am a new Catholic so I’m trying to learn everything I can so I can fully embrace my faith.

There is a three-fold process of repentance: contrition, confession, and satisfaction. The good acts and penances we do with grace, bearing trials patiently and faithfully (God’s “chastisements”), etc. in and of themselves, make satisfaction. An indulgence is a remission of the need to make satisfaction–the superabundant merits of the whole Body of Christ are applied instead through the ministry of binding and loosing.

Isn’t “earning” the indulgence an act of penance? I thought that when you went to confession and you were absolved, the things that the priest tells you to do (ie say 5 Hail Marys) was penance. Am I confusing the two?

Giving back what you’ve stolen is restitution and is a slightly different concept than making satisfaction in grace. Christ alone can make satisfaction for the eternal effects of sin, but we in grace can and must, with grace, still make satisfaction for the temporal effects. It’s the temporal damage to our own soul we are seeking to expiate.

I think I’m confused about what temporal damage is. The illustration with the boards below is very good, but when it comes to the punishment, what does that mean? Is it the natural consequences that come from our actions? So the eternal effects are not what we go to purgatory for then? We go for the temporal punishment?

The Pope and bishops grant them generally. You don’t have to get permission from anyone–just do the good work(s) required with the intention of receiving the indulgence.

I mean no disrespect by this question. The indulgences were developed many years ago, but even so, how do these men know that doing the good work removes the temporal punishment? I only ask this because we are human although there are obviously men/women among us who are holier and closer to God than others (i.e The Holy See). How can we be assured that this system of indulgences really removes the temporal punishment? I guess this goes back to not fully understanding temporal punishment. Would you be able to give me an example of how this would apply today of a sin, the temporal punishment that would follow (even after confession and penance), and how the indulgence is then applied?

It did take some centuries for these ideas to be synthesized together, but they were always present. In recent centuries penances generally focus on prayer which helps man turn back to God with maybe some alms giving or fasting for satisfaction. We generally focus on bearing trials faithfully, living a life of charity as making proper satisfaction, rather heavy canonical punishments–but the need for satisfaction and the fact that indulgences meet that need are still the case.

I think what you are saying has to do with faith and good works. When we sin, we go to confession and complete the penance (with a true penatent heart)…all the while trying to live our life as close to Christ as we humanly can. The living our life according to Christ (bearing trials faithfully, being charitable, etc.) are ways that we are “earning” our indulgences?

One more question about penance. Again, I do not mean any disrespect. I went to confession 3 weeks ago, and when I finished confessing, I was absolved and asked to pray 5 “Our Fathers” and 5 “Hail Marys”. How does this help me? Let’s say I confessed to picking fights with my Husband. Shouldn’t my penance be related to being a better wife in that area? Also, why should we say the same prayer to God and Mary over and over again? My husband said that it is mostly to help keep our minds focused on what we are doing (i.e. having a penatent heart).

Thank you again for your help.

 

[PJM]

isn’t “earning” the indulgence an act of penance? I thought that when you went to confession and you were absolved, the things that the priest tells you to do (ie say 5 Hail Marys) was penance.

Awesome question:tiphat:

1. Prayer is very much a "cureall: for all that ails us. Mind, body and SOUL:thumbsup:
2. Your understanding is quite good. there are several reasons why priest make “make it so darn easy on us.”

I read last year, that TIME did an article, and quote a Pew Report -Poll that stated only about 10% of Catholics go to Confession even once per year! Pathetic, and a GREAT many souls are at Serious and grevious risk, of not getting to heaven!

That being the case, they are trying (my opinion) too hard, to encourage people to come back because it’s “sooooo easy,” rather than just preaching and teaching the turth. Die with a Mortal sin on your soul, and you ARE going to Hell for all Eternity.

Having sharred that, talk to your Confessor (you talk to your Doctor) so why not your souls doctor, and share your desire for Penance that is “more customized” to your spiritual nedds. No doubt, he thrilled to oblidge.

Love and prayers,

[/QUOTE]

 

[NeedImprovement]

I
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Is there any early Christian writing that talks about indulgences? I think it would be very interesting to read the early Church fathers explanation for this tradition.

I’m not sure we’re working from the same book JAGCath28, but try looking in the back of your Manual. I have the HANDBOOK OF INDULGENCES, Norms and Grants (Catholic Book Publishing Co. 1991). There should be a "documentation "section dealing with the Apostolic Constitution On Indulgences (mine begins on pg 99). There,you’ll find many references to the early Church fathers, Councils explaining how the concept evolved.

Here’s a brief example from a footnote[pg. 102]:

See Augustine, In Io. Ev. tract 124,5:

“We are obliged to suffer in this life even after our sins have been pardoned, although original sin was the reason why we have fallen into this plight. For punishment lasts longer than sin so that sin is not regarded lightly, as would be the case were the punishment ended without the end of sin. Thus even when sin no longer holds us bound to eternal damnation, temporal punishment still is binding on us, either as a sign of the misery we have earned, as a corrective against a sinful life, or as an exercise in the patience we need.”

 

[Cara_Serrano]

To anyone who knows:

Do you think the Handbook of Indulgences mentioned in the previous posts is the best resource on this topic? I need something I can show to an RCIA candidate with no specific religious background.

 

[JAGCath28]

I have the Manual of Indulgences that was put together by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. It says it was translated from the 4th edition of the Enchiridion Indulgentiarum: Normae et Concessiones.

The only resources it gives are the following:

Pastoral Care of the Dying

Night Prayer From the Liturgy of the Hours

and… Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

I just noticed though that each grant (indulgence) gives a list of references including scripture references, but it seems that those non scripture references are just from the 20th century (i.e. Vatican II).