Purgatory Thoughts

[NewPerspective]

We are justified by what Christ “did” at Calvary.(Did being past tensed) When we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, which is mandatory as it relates to salvation, we receive that Third Person of the Godhead we die to our flesh and are made alive to God. (All Scriptural) When we die, the fleshly aspect of our being is left behind and we are now in the Spirit realm eternally whether your name is in the Book of Life or not. There is no cleaning or purgation that needs to occur in order for us to be accepted into the Kingdom. There is no fallibilities in our Spiritual man because our spiritual life is in reality the life of Christ, our only hope of glory. Show me indisputable Scriptural evidence that purgatory harbors any validity whatsoever.

 

[peary]

Part 1

Show me indisputable Scriptural evidence that purgatory harbors any validity whatsoever.

This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.
Christ refers to the sinner who *“will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” *(Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.
Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: *“In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” *(2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine!

 

[peary]

Part 2

Show me indisputable Scriptural evidence that purgatory harbors any validity whatsoever.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the *Mourner’s Kaddish *for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.

Your resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t.
And you cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. Basically, you have it backwards:Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because *"[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" *(Heb. 12:11).
Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely “covered,” if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.
Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that “nothing unclean shall enter heaven.” From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if “covered,” remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or “purged” of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs as a purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us *“to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit.” *Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive *“for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” *

 

[water]

Why Purgatory?

• last Sunday homily given by the Pastor of our parish - Fr. Joel McNeil.
  saintwilliams.org/node/332

 

[BlestOne]

We are justified by what Christ “did” at Calvary.(Did being past tensed) When we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, which is mandatory as it relates to salvation, we receive that Third Person of the Godhead we die to our flesh and are made alive to God. (All Scriptural) When we die, the fleshly aspect of our being is left behind and we are now in the Spirit realm eternally whether your name is in the Book of Life or not. There is no cleaning or purgation that needs to occur in order for us to be accepted into the Kingdom. There is no fallibilities in our Spiritual man because our spiritual life is in reality the life of Christ, our only hope of glory. Show me indisputable Scriptural evidence that purgatory harbors any validity whatsoever.

New, Can you tell me that you are at this moment fit for heaven? Not one little bad thought or action? Everything you do is with the purest of heart and mind… and doesn’t break any law or have any negative consequence for anybody else? If you can, you would be Christ…

If nothing unpure can enter heaven… what makes you think you or anybody else can without being cleansed by fire?

What makes you so resistant to the idea? Don’t you see purgatory as a wonderful thing? Liken it to taking a shower in anticipation for going to church… you wouldn’t go dirty would you? So preparing oneself for the kingdom would be how much more important?

Look at it this way… all those in purgatory are also rejoicing because their final destination is heaven…

 

[BrewMax]

New, Can you tell me that you are at this moment fit for heaven? Not one little bad thought or action? Everything you do is with the purest of heart and mind… and doesn’t break any law or have any negative consequence for anybody else? If you can, you would be Christ…

If nothing unpure can enter heaven… what makes you think you or anybody else can without being cleansed by fire?

What makes you so resistant to the idea? Don’t you see purgatory as a wonderful thing? Liken it to taking a shower in anticipation for going to church… you wouldn’t go dirty would you? So preparing oneself for the kingdom would be how much more important?

Look at it this way… all those in purgatory are also rejoicing because their final destination is heaven…

So then, the sacrifice Christ made doesn’t cleanse us?

 

[Mannyfit75]

So then, the sacrifice Christ made doesn’t cleanse us?

His death on the cross destroyed our death in sin, his resurrection gave us a new life, eternal life. Jesus did also said that we ought to love him, and obey his commandment if we truly love him. When we commit sin, we must repent and renew our relationship in Christ. Unrepentent sinners will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. This is very clear in the Scripture.

 

[Mannyfit75]

NewPerspective:

Show me indisputable Scriptural evidence that purgatory harbors any validity whatsoever.

Scriptural Support.

(A) It is true that the term “purgatory” never appears in the Scripture. But such an observation is in itself insufficient as grounds for its rejection. If we took too fundamentalistic approach to questions of doctrine and the Scripture, then we ought to reject the “Trinity,” the “Incarnation,” “Original sin” and the divinity of Christ. No where in Scripture are these terms used, yet you and I agree on all of them. The Scripture teaches each, not by name, but by meaning. I suggest purgatory is no different. The name “purgatory” is absent in the Scripture, but the teaching is most assuredly present.

Are we called to grow in holiness, to grow in our love of God? As mentioned earlier, this is essentially the doctrine of sanctification which we both assume; hence, I too will assume it without offering Scriptural support. Paul writes in his second letter to the Corinthians: “Let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates the body and the spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God” (2Co 7.1). Paul says again: “Not that I have already obtained all this, or have been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me” (Ph 3.12). What has Paul said? Paul tells us that we must purify whatever contaminates us in order to perfect our holiness for God; Paul tells us that he is not yet perfect, but he presses on. Scripture substantiates our earlier remarks.

What does Scripture say about entering heaven? In Revelation we read that “nothing impure will ever enter it” (Rv 21.27). But are we not all made pure by our justification, by the blood of the Lamb? Again, such a view is incompatible with the doctrine of sanctification. There is no reason for us to believe that the one act that justified me also automatically forgives subsequent sin irrespective of contrition. Such a view is incompatible with Scripture, as well as it serving as a license to commit whatever act we so desire since forgiveness is already received or gotten without contrition. This is dangerously close to the abuses associated with the doctrine of indulgences.

(B) In 2 Corinthians 5.10, we read: “For we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may receive what is his due for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.” Do Christians do bad things? Obviously so. “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” (Rm 3.23). What will happen to a Christian who appears before the judgment seat of Christ with bad deeds? Paul gives us the answer in his first letter to the Corinthians: “His work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through flames” (1Co 3.15).

Paul plainly tells us that Christians with bad deeds who approach Christ the Judge will find themselves in a fire, burning away those deeds. Such a place is not hell for Paul is speaking of saved Christians: **“he himself will be saved.” **It cannot be heaven for there is suffering: “he will suffer loss . . . as one escaping through flames.” Could it be earth during this life? For Paul “the Day” always refers to the day we are judged. Where is this place where Christians suffer loss as if by fire? It must be purgatory.

(c) In Matthew 12.32 we read: **" . . . but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this age or the age to come." **Such a statement clearly implies that there is a state, or “age” in which sins are forgiven. This cannot be heaven or hell for reasons already given. Purgatory alone renders this verse intelligible.

It should be added that Matthew 5.25-26 has been used, not as a proof text for purgatory, but that Jesus’ words can be used in an analogous sense for purgatory. I do not say that this passage is a direct reference to purgatory, but that purgatory is like what is illustrated in this passage: "I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/PURGBAS.htm

 

[Mannyfit75]

Another Scriptural text to proof text is mention in Philippians Chapter 1 verse 5-11.

Have this mind among yourselves, which was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but empty himself, taking a form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humble himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him a name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in the heaven, and on the earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father.

Under the earth is purgatory. In hell, God is not there, nor is he worshipped. Hell is separation from God.

 

[NewPerspective]

God knows our hearts, as i would assume you agree. He realized, Im sure, when He sacrificed His Son that he might reconcile us to Him, that we would still fall short of His glory and sometimes stumble as it relates to satisfying the lusts of our flesh. To repent for sin does not merely mean that we say we are sorry to God for doing things contrary to His will, we are turning away from those things and displacing them with things of the Spirit. We are a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit and are justified by our faith and the works that show it. When we die, we physically and literally die to our flesh and become a one dimensional being. Our spirit no longer battles with our flesh. There is no cleansing or “purgation” that needs to occur. Your doctrine, by theoretically fabricating such a premise, is saying that Christ, in us the hope of glory, needs purgation or cleansing before entering the Kingdom. And yes I KNOW when I die where I am going. Not a doubt in my mind. My faith in Jesus Christ as a result of His revelation in my life is my guarantee that I will reign with Him for eternity. Im spending my time on earth sharing the Gospel with the lost and living for my King. And someone made the comment that the word trinity isnt used in Scripture as an argument that purgatory’s complete and utter non-existence in The Word doesnt mean its not fabricated by a MAN that the catholic church recognizes as infallible. The word trinity is just another name for the GodHead. So what relevance does that have?

 

[Mannyfit75]

God knows our hearts, as i would assume you agree.

He does. He also judge us if we live out our faith.

He realized, I’m sure, when He sacrificed His Son that he might reconcile us to Him, that we would still fall short of His glory and sometimes stumble as it relates to satisfying the lusts of our flesh. To repent for sin does not merely mean that we say we are sorry to God for doing things contrary to His will, we are turning away from those things and displacing them with things of the Spirit.

We repent because from our heart, we are truly sorry for our sins. The Holy Spirit moves us by granting us the grace to confess our sins and restore the life, we lost when we sin.

We are a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit and are justified by our faith and the works that show it. When we die, we physically and literally die to our flesh and become a one dimensional being. Our spirit no longer battles with our flesh. There is no cleansing or “purgation” that needs to occur. Your doctrine, by theoretically fabricating such a premise, is saying that Christ, in us the hope of glory, needs purgation or cleansing before entering the Kingdom.

I think Catholics here including myself don’t believe that its our doctrine. It is Christ’s doctrine. His Church professed it to be so. I already gave your Scripture Verses that support Purgatory. I also like to add that nothing impure can enter into heaven.

Sin itself is not equal. For John in his Epistle states, there is sin that is deadly, and there is sin that is not deadly. Sin that is deadly brings death to the soul of the unrepentent sinner. Sin that doesn’t bring death is sin that is does not less mortal.

1 John 5:16-17

If anyone sees his brother committing what is not mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to for pray that. All wrong doing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. RSV-CE Bible.

Other translation use the word grave instead of mortal. The meaning still remains.

If you read verse 16, John wrote…“If anyone sees his brother committing what is not mortal, he will ask, and God will give him life for those sin who is not mortal.” Souls in purgatory are not cut off from God’s grace. They are already saved, yet they must pay for the sins they committed in the earthly life. Their life is not taken away. Hence, John writes, God will give him life for those who sin is not mortal.

And yes I KNOW when I die where I am going. Not a doubt in my mind. My faith in Jesus Christ as a result of His revelation in my life is my guarantee that I will reign with Him for eternity. Im spending my time on earth sharing the Gospel with the lost and living for my King. And someone made the comment that the word trinity isnt used in Scripture as an argument that purgatory’s complete and utter non-existence in The Word doesnt mean its not fabricated by a MAN that the catholic church recognizes as infallible. The word trinity is just another name for the GodHead. So what relevance does that have?

The word Trinity derives from the Word Trinitas in Latin. The word Trinity was first recorded around 180 AD by Theophilus of Antioch. He did refer to it as Triad. Tertullian, a Latin theologian is credited to used the word Trinity. The Catholic Church in 325 AD defined Trinity as One God, three Divine Persons.

By the way, we Catholics don’t believe in Eternal Security nor OSAS.

 

[ralphinal]

Thank you for a wonderful topic and a polite method of presenting it. Discourse is a wonderful thing.

First, there is relevance between if “Trinity” is mentioned or not. Part of your supposition is that Purgatory is not mentioned, so it is not a real state. Other posters were pointing out parts of the faith that are not NAMED in scripture, but are described (as Purgatory is). To say that “Trinity” is just another name for Godhead really is an oversimplification. There is much more to the Trinity doctrine than another way to describe God.

Second, 100% assurance of salvation is somewhat problematic. We know that “not everyone who calls me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom” (Matt 7:21). We are also instructed, like St. Paul, to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12) because “I have not already succeeded or become perfect.” (Phil 3:12). We can trick ourselves into thinking that we have made it when we haven’t.

Once you accept Christ, are you then incapable of sinning? Are you no longer tempted? Have you no more crosses to bear?

 

[BlestOne]

NewPerspective… How can you be so sure when even St Paul was not sure?
Bible:

Phillipians 2 11 And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. 13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will. 14 And do ye all things without murmurings and hesitations; 15 That you may be blameless, and sincere children of God, without reproof, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation; among whom you shine as lights in the world.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The misception that Purgatory cheapens Jesus Christ’s death of the Cross is also erroneous.

Jimmy Akin has a great answer to this:

9. “It infringes on the sufficiency of Christ’s work.” The Charge

Okay. The idea here is that since purgatory involves suffering, it must some how infringe on the sufferings of Christ and imply they weren’t sufficient.

Wrong!

Remember: Purgatory is simply the last stage of sanctification. Sanctification in this life involves pain, for “For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. . . . [And] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant” (Hebrews 12:6, 11), yet no one says that suffering infringes on Christ’s sufferings. In the same way, the suffering during the final sanctification in no way infringes on Christ’s sufferings or implies they were insufficient.

Quite the contrary! The fact is that the suffering we experience in sanctification in this life is something we receive because of Christ’s sacrifice for us. His sufferings paid the price for us to be sanctified, and his sufferings paid the price for the whole of our sanctification – both the initial and final parts. Thus it is because of Christ’s sacrifice that we receive the final sanctification in the first place! If he had not suffered, we would not be given the final sanctification (or the glorification to which it leads), but would go straight to hell. Thus purgatory does not imply Christ’s sufferings were insufficient; rather it is because of Christ’s sufferings that we are given the final sanctification of purgatory in the first place!

 

[NewPerspective]

Im not saying that now that Im saved that Im guaranteed salvation no matter what i choose to do. If my choice to follow Christ, not the apocrypha or macabees or catechism, was sincere than my life CANNOT be the same. Yes I live my life in fear and reverence of God but my salvation was given to me as a free gift if I choose to call on the Name of The Lord and believe that He died for me.(Indisputable Scripture) As far as the loss of salvation is concerned, it isnt definitively described in Scripture but I believe that if my conversion was sincere it would take alot to fall out of the grace of God. So if i understand correctly, i am supposed to live my life worried that i wont inherit the Kingdom of God that i was promised when i was called a royal priesthood and a holy nation? My day of redemption was when my precious Lord sacrificed Himself for a creation that denied His existence. I think the BIG PICTURE is often misunderstood. The manifestation of Gods glory is the culmination of God’s will in our lives. We need to stake our claim, seal it in faith, say Amen, and begin to live out the Ministry of The Holy Spirit and live under His control for our short time on this planet. Its time to move past the Milk of The Gospel and begin to grow in the Lord and the things of the Spirit and live soled out lives for Christ. My question to the catholic church is, what about the New Covenant God cut with the gentile is insufficient enough to where the CC finds it necessary to live under the law and tradition of the OT and a completely other Dispensation?

 

[Mannyfit75]

NewPerspective:

My question to the catholic church is, what about the New Covenant God cut with the gentile is insufficient enough to where the CC finds it necessary to live under the law and tradition of the OT and a completely other Dispensation?

The Catholic Church is the New Covenant established by Jesus Christ on the Last Supper. Jesus said, “This is my blood. The blood of the New Covenant, which will be given up for you.”

Jesus himself came to fullfil the Law not abolished it. Most of the Mosaic Law dealing with unclean animals, circumcism and such is no longer binding on Christians.

Rather, the moral law remains which are contain within the Ten Commandments. Jesus require us to obey everything that he has taught us.

There are Church Laws which governs disciplinary of how a Liturgy are written such as Code of Canon Law.

Canon Law, the ecclesiastical law of the Catholic Church, is a fully developed legal system, with all the necessary elements: courts, lawyers, judges, a fully articulated legal code and principles of legal interpretation. The academic degrees in canon law are the J.C.B. (Juris Canonici Baccalaureatus, Bachelor of Canon Law, normally taken as a graduate degree), J.C.L. (Juris Canonici Licentiatus, Licentiate of Canon Law) and the J.C.D. (Juris Canonici Doctor, Doctor of Canon Law). Because of its specialized nature, advanced degrees in civil law or theology are normal prerequisites for the study of canon law.

These Laws are necessary to prevent any disorder within certains rites and practices of the Church.

The Seven Precepts of the Catholic Church which is required by the Catholic Church is necessary for laity. Why?

By adhering to these Precepts, the Catholic receives graces from God through its sacraments.

The Seven Precepts:

I. To attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, and resting from servile works.

II. To observe the days of abstinence and fasting.

III. To confess our sins to a priest, at least once a year.

IV. To receive Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist at least once a year during Easter Season.

V. To contribute to the support of the Church.

VI. To obey the laws of the Church concerning Matrimony.

VII. To participate in the Church’s mission of Evangelization of Souls.(Missionary Spirit of the Church);.

These also goes in line with the Ten Commandments. Of course to practice this is to do so with love of God. For if you do these without love of God, God will not be pleased.

 

[peary]

My question to the catholic church is, what about the New Covenant God cut with the gentile is insufficient enough to where the CC finds it necessary to live under the law and tradition of the OT and a completely other Dispensation?

Dunno. Why not post your question in the Apolgetics forum and see what happens?

 

[BrewMax]

His death on the cross destroyed our death in sin, his resurrection gave us a new life, eternal life. Jesus did also said that we ought to love him, and obey his commandment if we truly love him. When we commit sin, we must repent and renew our relationship in Christ. Unrepentent sinners will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. This is very clear in the Scripture.

I agree. But aren’t those that are living the Christian life prescribed by Christ also forgiven by Christ of their sins? Obviously nobody was, is or will ever be perfect in this life except for Christ.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

My own way of looking at it is this:
Every time I make some effort to become more holy, it involves some kind of suffering. Say that I realize that using too much alcohol is getting in the way of my spiritual life. Getting from that state to a more holy alcohol-free state involves pain. For another example, let’s say I am a habitual stealer. I’m greedy and dishonest and steal things when I can. Well even if I ask God for forgiveness and He grants it, I’m going to have some suffering to go through when I break that habit, just like with any habit.

Breaking sinful habits is painful. When we die, we’re still going ot have bad habits. Those have to be broken before we can be sanctified and purely holy and enter heaven. It’s just the nature of things that breaking an attachment to eartly things (bad habits) is painful. That’s what purgatory is all about.

We are justified by what Christ “did” at Calvary.(Did being past tensed) When we are baptized in the Holy Spirit, which is mandatory as it relates to salvation, we receive that Third Person of the Godhead we die to our flesh and are made alive to God. (All Scriptural) When we die, the fleshly aspect of our being is left behind and we are now in the Spirit realm eternally whether your name is in the Book of Life or not. There is no cleaning or purgation that needs to occur in order for us to be accepted into the Kingdom. There is no fallibilities in our Spiritual man because our spiritual life is in reality the life of Christ, our only hope of glory. Show me indisputable Scriptural evidence that purgatory harbors any validity whatsoever.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I agree. But aren’t those that are living the Christian life prescribed by Christ also forgiven by Christ of their sins? Obviously nobody was, is or will ever be perfect in this life except for Christ.

If they repent they are forgiven. If they ask for God’s mercy, mercy will be given to them. Unrepentent sinners whether he is a Christian will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. A Christian must confess his sins in order to have his sins forgiven.

Through, prayer sin can be conquered, and we can imitate Christ by not sinning. By man’s own power, he cannot combat sin. With God’s grace and continuous prayer, we can conquer sin.

There is a call for self-mastery of to avoid the temptation that leads a Christian to sin.