Purgatory uses time

[fred_conty]

I have only heard that there is no time in purgatory. And I’ve never seen this challenged, that is, “no time”. But I also have never seen any proof or hard teaching on this “no time” in purgatory.

The argument goes that in eternity there is no time. Purgatory is in eternity, ergo, there is no time in purgatory.

But lets look at this again. We exist on earth where there is time and where we are not united with God. If we exist in purgatory we are not united with God, ergo maybe there is time.
OR…maybe if there is no time IN purgatory, maybe there is time OUTSIDE of purgatory that affects purgatory. For in purgatory there is no rising or setting of the sun, or spinning of purgatory around the sun, or any other thing that tells time as earth tells time. But just maybe being in purgatory, purgatory uses the earth to tell time which is outside of itself.

So when Mary, at Fatima, said that a person, whom the three children knew, would be there in purgatory until the end of the world, this implied that there is time…the time of the earth that is applied to purgatory.

And we know from catholic teaching, we are encouraged to pray for the poor souls to get them out of purgatory, before the end of the world. Since this is the case, the church is indirectly talking about the time of the earth. Which means that their suffering is shortened…which means time, maybe not time in purgatory, but the earth’s time which is applied to purgatory.

From this it seems that there is no time in purgatory, but that purgatory uses earth’s time.

In the CCC, there is nothing on or about time in purgatory, yea or neh as far as I know.

So what do you think…are there sound arguments or documentation to disprove/prove this?

 

[Slaney]

So when Mary, at Fatima, said that a person, whom the three children knew, would be there in purgatory until the end of the world, this implied that there is time…the time of the earth that is applied to purgatory.

I believe God is outside of time, and therefore purgatory, maybe the end of the world yard stick has to be used by Our Lady, after all Mary was talking to children, not that us adults understand that much better. Only difference in purgatory though is that it will be emptied someday, but hell shall never be emptied… I will be so grateful to God to make it to Purgatory hell has no time limit, horrendous but true.

 

[fred_conty]

I see what you are saying but how about this other part?

“And we know from catholic teaching, we are encouraged to pray for the poor souls to get them out of purgatory, before the end of the world. Since this is the case, the church is indirectly talking about the time of the earth. Which means that their suffering is shortened…which means time, maybe not time in purgatory, but the earth’s time which is applied to purgatory.”

 

[Slaney]

I see what you are saying but how about this other part?

"And we know from catholic teaching, we are encouraged to pray for the poor souls to get them out of purgatory, before the end of the world. Since this is the case, the church is indirectly talking about the time of the earth. Which means that their suffering is shortened…which means time, maybe not time in purgatory, but the earth’s time which is applied to purgatory."

Sorry, it’s late here, suffice to say, where did you read that highlighted bit ? not that it matters if the world as we know it ended, after-all there is going to be a New Heaven and New Earth. Anyway I’ve read that it is better to spend 15 years suffering on earth than 15 minutes in purgatory, so it seems earth’s time is being used here to give us some sort of understanding of how long souls stay in purgatory. I’m not concerned how long it is, we should pray for them and have Masse’s offered for them, then we shall have powerful intercessors in Heaven…Purgatory is the Mercy of God at work…

 

[fred_conty]

Sorry, it’s late here, suffice to say, where did you read that highlighted bit ? not that it matters if the world as we know it ended, after-all there is going to be a New Heaven and New Earth. Anyway I’ve read that it is better to spend 15 years suffering on earth than 15 minutes in purgatory, so it seems earth’s time is being used here to give us some sort of understanding of how long souls stay in purgatory. I’m not concerned how long it is, we should pray for them and have Masse’s offered for them, then we shall have powerful intercessors in Heaven…Purgatory is the Mercy of God at work…

“…we should pray for them and have Masse’s offered for them, then we shall have powerful intercessors in Heaven…” is a good point because saints are powerful.

“And we know from catholic teaching, we are encouraged to pray for the poor souls to get them out of purgatory, before the end of the world.”

I’ve always heard that said since I was knee high. In addition, ALL SOULS DAY is also for that reason. And numerous CAF posts have advocated to get all souls out of purgatory and to empty purgatory. Some of the mystics have also said that souls can be released from purgatory by our prayers. All of this means before the end of the world.

May God our Father give you grace and peace.

 

[bzkoss236]

The Church has no teaching on purgatory in that regard.

People argue for either no time (instant), or time, but any arguments are in the end only speculation.

 

[fred_conty]

We just went by Lexington two weeks ago on our way to the Smokeys. Great place.

First time I’ve heard that there might be time in purgatory.

 

[Elizium23]

Purgatory is defined as a place of temporal punishment. How can there be no time there?

 

[GEddie]

Purgatory is defined as a place of temporal punishment. How can there be no time there?

I always understood temporal to mean “non eternal”, rather than a time duration.

One problem that comes up is that we really don’t know what time is.

If as seems likely, collinear time is a property of physical matter (in our bodies) which would not be in Purgatory, how could time continue in it?

ICXC NIKA

 

[stephe1987]

Well, there may or may not be time because God is outside of time and we face God when we die. But time does make sense because of visions of purgatory, people spending various amounts of time there before entering heaven. But time could also be a metaphor, a way of explaining something outside of time to us who are still in time (difficult to understand the concept of no time when our lives are all about time).

 

[jesus4ever]

The thing is when a person is in pain they tend to loose track of time because ones mind is pretty much aware and continuesly are thinking of the pain they have.

 

[Robertanthony]

Purgatory is defined as a place of temporal punishment. How can there be no time there?

Punishment for and purgation of/being freed from our temporal attachment to lower goods (creation or creatures), it doesn’t say the punishment will take place in a temporal framework.

About the “poor, abandoned” souls of Purgatory, as if they were in some kind of temporary, lesser hell :."Two hundred years later St Catherine of Genoa would remind the Church that though the sufferings of the poor souls may be great, their joy and happiness is greater still: “No happiness can be found worthy to be compared with that of a soul in Purgatory except that of the saints in Paradise; and day by day this happiness grows as God flows into these souls, more and more as the hindrance to His entrance is consumed.” This is taken from a throrough article on Purgatory pontifications.wordpress.com/purgatory/

I’ve always had similar thoughts on Purgatory as St. Catherine of Genoa, I just never knew there was a saint who had expressed it in such a straightforward fashion. Purgatory is not to be seen as an antechamber of hell, but as an antechamber of Heaven. It literally gets better with each new “day”.

 

[Starrsmother]

Y’know, I always wondered about that supposed quote from Mary at Fatima to Lucia (I think it was) where she told her that one of the young kids would be in purgatory until the end of the world. I almost wonder if the young seer got it right or if Mary meant something else or what. Both kids besides Lucia died as children. I mean, what could a little kid the age of those kids then have possibly managed to do to land in purgatory until the end of the world? Steal a cookie?

 

[amrin]

Both kids besides Lucia died as children. I mean, what could a little kid the age of those kids then have possibly managed to do to land in purgatory until the end of the world? Steal a cookie?

All three little sheppards of Fatima were 7 years old or older at the time of the apparitions. So who knows what they could have managed to have done, or not do to be in purgatory. Maybe they killed a small animal while they sheppard the sheep, maybe they lied about something. Only Mary and God know.

 

[Starrsmother]

All three little sheppards of Fatima were 7 years old or older at the time of the apparitions. So who knows what they could have managed to have done, or not do to be in purgatory. Maybe they killed a small animal while they sheppard the sheep, maybe they lied about something. Only Mary and God know.

Hmmm… I just still sort of wonder if there may not be some error in the interpretation of what Mary said by the kids as they attempted to re-tell the story–or perhaps we can’t understand what Mary’s exact meaning actually was. I have an 8 year old grandson, and while I do believe that he has a basic understanding of right and wrong, I don’t yet see him being able to be culpable in committing much sin at all–much less a mortal one–or one that would be worthy of purgatory until the very last day! I know I’m a proud grandma–so that may influence my thinking though–LOL!

I also am not sure that even killing a small animal or lying would mean purgatory until the end of the world–though I’ll add the caveat that I don’t pretend to know God’s mind and what sin merits what punishment. But one thing for sure, if lying or killing a small animal while shepherding at 7 years old would land you that big of a sentence, I can for sure say that when I die, nobody is going to be seeing me in heaven for a long, long time! My little grandson accidentally killed his pet goldfish awhile back because he was trying to help his Dad clean the goldfish bowl. He used a fork instead of the little net thing to take the fish out of the bowl–apparently he had never been really aware of precisely what my son used to remove the fish- so of course he impaled the fish and it died. He was just horrified when his “fishie” couldn’t be put back in the bowl to swim–and even more upset when my son, with only a small amount of fake sorrow, thinly veiled beneath complete jubilation at being finally rid of the fish, had the typical “burial at sea” in the toilet for it. LOL!

My point is that I just feel inside myself that there is something wrong in the idea of that child and his sentencing time in purgatory. I mean this only in the sense that maybe there is something that either we can’t understand with our human minds about Mary’s meaning, or that the kids mistakenly told what they thought they heard when being questioned. They were, after all, just 3 little 7 year olds who were being 3rd degreed multiple times by everyone from their parish priest and local authorities to the bishop! Moreover as I remember, for some reason every time Mary appeared to them, they had a new list of people they were questioning Mary about as to these people’s ultimate fate. I wonder if maybe the kids didn’t get the big picture of what Mary said correctly but perhaps messed up on a detail or two. I look at my grandson and could see that happening quite easily is all I am saying—and he’s a full year older than those 3 little kids were then. Just a thought–I don’t reeally claim to know, of course!

 

[Robertanthony]

All three little sheppards of Fatima were 7 years old or older at the time of the apparitions. So who knows what they could have managed to have done, or not do to be in purgatory. Maybe they killed a small animal while they sheppard the sheep, maybe they lied about something. Only Mary and God know.

7 years old is barely the age of reason in Catholicism, no way anyone that age gets sentenced to a possibly multi-century stay in Purgatory. If we’re to follow that reasoning how long would a repentant child molester or serial killer would spend there then? It’s nonsensical. We’re not bound to believe everyting or anything contained in a private revelation.

Y’know, I always wondered about that supposed quote from Mary at Fatima to Lucia (I think it was) where she told her that one of the young kids would be in purgatory until the end of the world. I almost wonder if the young seer got it right or if Mary meant something else or what. Both kids besides Lucia died as children. I mean, what could a little kid the age of those kids then have possibly managed to do to land in purgatory until the end of the world? Steal a cookie?

Do you know Pastor Ray Comfort? He goes around asking ordinary people if they are good people, which most people will answer “yes” to. Then he goes through the 10 commandments, if the person says that he stole some candy ages ago, Comfort then asks, “And what does that make you?”. Other person, “I don’t know”. Comfort: “A thief”. Mind you he’s probably well-meaning but terribly misguided. This thing about a young child having to spend half an eternity in Purgatory tends to lessen the credibility of the whole message, there must’ve been a major misunderstanding here, we all know that children around 7 years of age never misunderstand things said to them by adults. But ,as I said, this does seem to weaken the message, lessen its credibility. But reread my earlier post, anyone in Purgatory is way happier than you and I could ever be in this life, Purgatory is a joyful place. God bless.

 

[Robertanthony]

Hmmm… I just still sort of wonder if there may not be some error in the interpretation of what Mary said by the kids as they attempted to re-tell the story–or perhaps we can’t understand what Mary’s exact meaning actually was. I have an 8 year old grandson, and while I do believe that he has a basic understanding of right and wrong, I don’t yet see him being able to be culpable in committing much sin at all–much less a mortal one–or one that would be worthy of purgatory until the very last day! I know I’m a proud grandma–so that may influence my thinking though–LOL!

I also am not sure that even killing a small animal or lying would mean purgatory until the end of the world–though I’ll add the caveat that I don’t pretend to know God’s mind and what sin merits what punishment. But one thing for sure, if lying or killing a small animal while shepherding at 7 years old would land you that big of a sentence, I can for sure say that when I die, nobody is going to be seeing me in heaven for a long, long time! My little grandson accidentally killed his pet goldfish awhile back because he was trying to help his Dad clean the goldfish bowl. He used a fork instead of the little net thing to take the fish out of the bowl–apparently he had never been really aware of precisely what my son used to remove the fish- so of course he impaled the fish and it died. He was just horrified when his “fishie” couldn’t be put back in the bowl to swim–and even more upset when my son, with only a small amount of fake sorrow, thinly veiled beneath complete jubilation at being finally rid of the fish, had the typical “burial at sea” in the toilet for it. LOL!

My point is that I just feel inside myself that there is something wrong in the idea of that child and his sentencing time in purgatory. I mean this only in the sense that maybe there is something that either we can’t understand with our human minds about Mary’s meaning, or that the kids mistakenly told what they thought they heard when being questioned. They were, after all, just 3 little 7 year olds who were being 3rd degreed multiple times by everyone from their parish priest and local authorities to the bishop! Moreover as I remember, for some reason every time Mary appeared to them, they had a new list of people they were questioning Mary about as to these people’s ultimate fate. I wonder if maybe the kids didn’t get the big picture of what Mary said correctly but perhaps messed up on a detail or two. I look at my grandson and could see that happening quite easily is all I am saying—and he’s a full year older than those 3 little kids were then. Just a thought–I don’t reeally claim to know, of course!

You just about killed me with your “typical burial at sea in the toilet”!|

 

[fred_conty]

For general info, the child was not one of the three fatima children. It was another 16 year old girl that they knew who had already died. And Mary was asked if she was in heaven. And Mary responded by saying she is in purgatory and will be there until the end of the world.

One of the children later became a nun. And when Pope John Paul went to Fatima for a celebration event, the nun was there. The pope brought this very point up to the nun, that is, that he felt that was a pretty harsh sentence for a 16 year old and sort of implied that maybe that was an exageration or mistake. The nun promptly replied to the pope and said that only one mortal sin will send someone to hell. The Pope seemed to accept this answer. So it seems that there is no misunderstanding about this girl being in purgatory until the end of the world for the nun would certainly have owned up to this if it were not true or was an exageration.

Someone mentioned that they didn’t see how there would be time in purgatory. And I too agree. Tho there there is no time … in … purgatory, purgatory could use the earth’s time, since it would not have time in purgatory. But it seems to me there would have to be time used for purgatory of some sort, for we use concepts of “end of the world” and “cutting short” time in purgatory.

I’m not saying I’m right, but what I have proposed with regard to time seems ok to me. And I enjoy hearing other thoughts about it.

The concept of purgatory shows how merciful our God is, and it gives us also an opportunity to show our mercy by praying for them, and ending their suffering, whether purification or real.
The church also shows its mercy by granting to us on All Souls Day the ability to end the suffering of someone in purgatory with a plenary indulgence.

Just a thought.

 

[Brigid34]

Hmmm… I just still sort of wonder if there may not be some error in the interpretation of what Mary said by the kids as they attempted to re-tell the story–or perhaps we can’t understand what Mary’s exact meaning actually was. I have an 8 year old grandson, and while I do believe that he has a basic understanding of right and wrong, I don’t yet see him being able to be culpable in committing much sin at all–much less a mortal one–or one that would be worthy of purgatory until the very last day! I know I’m a proud grandma–so that may influence my thinking though–LOL!

I also am not sure that even killing a small animal or lying would mean purgatory until the end of the world–though I’ll add the caveat that I don’t pretend to know God’s mind and what sin merits what punishment. But one thing for sure, if lying or killing a small animal while shepherding at 7 years old would land you that big of a sentence, I can for sure say that when I die, nobody is going to be seeing me in heaven for a long, long time! My little grandson accidentally killed his pet goldfish awhile back because he was trying to help his Dad clean the goldfish bowl. He used a fork instead of the little net thing to take the fish out of the bowl–apparently he had never been really aware of precisely what my son used to remove the fish- so of course he impaled the fish and it died. He was just horrified when his “fishie” couldn’t be put back in the bowl to swim–and even more upset when my son, with only a small amount of fake sorrow, thinly veiled beneath complete jubilation at being finally rid of the fish, had the typical “burial at sea” in the toilet for it. LOL!

My point is that I just feel inside myself that there is something wrong in the idea of that child and his sentencing time in purgatory. I mean this only in the sense that maybe there is something that either we can’t understand with our human minds about Mary’s meaning, or that the kids mistakenly told what they thought they heard when being questioned. They were, after all, just 3 little 7 year olds who were being 3rd degreed multiple times by everyone from their parish priest and local authorities to the bishop! Moreover as I remember, for some reason every time Mary appeared to them, they had a new list of people they were questioning Mary about as to these people’s ultimate fate. I wonder if maybe the kids didn’t get the big picture of what Mary said correctly but perhaps messed up on a detail or two. I look at my grandson and could see that happening quite easily is all I am saying—and he’s a full year older than those 3 little kids were then. Just a thought–I don’t reeally claim to know, of course!

My grandson is 8 but about 9 and I can’t imagine him doing anything that’s a mortal sin. Yes, he’s lied, but not known the consequences of his actions. I agree that those kids at Fatima must have gotten something wrong. I may be a doting grandma, but my grandson’s grades don’t indicate that he’s slow or anything. If it were a 16 y.o. I still would wonder.

I think Purgatory must not have time, since you are partially in the presence of Him but just in a lessor way.

 

[GEddie]

My grandson is 8 but about 9 and I can’t imagine him doing anything that’s a mortal sin. Yes, he’s lied, but not known the consequences of his actions. I agree that those kids at Fatima must have gotten something wrong. I may be a doting grandma, but my grandson’s grades don’t indicate that he’s slow or anything. If it were a 16 y.o. I still would wonder.

I think Purgatory must not have time, since you are partially in the presence of Him but just in a lessor way.

I doubt that anything was mistranslated. They spoke modern Portuguese, after all, not Biblical Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic.

I would agree that a seven-YO could not do much to earn serious Purgatory. However, a sixteen-year old, M or F, could do so easily. IMNAAHO

ICXC NIKA